Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters?

[Jethro]

Mmm. I've always loved that idea. Given the way that the Forsaken are playing with the politics of the world as if they are above it it would make perfect irony for her to be captured in the course of an attack that has nothing to do with the shadow. Especially if the Seanchan arn't aware of who she is

 

That sounds good. It is the only way I would like a Chosen being leashed, but it does make for an ironic fate as you said. Very fitting for Mesaana, she is too complacent.

 

Quote

Tuon may actually demand that fate for Semirhage, if she is made aware of who Semirhage had been posing as.  I can see Rand turning her over as part of a treaty ... although I doubt Cadsuane, Nynaeve, or anyone else will like it much.  And especially Egwene, since Egwene knows that Moghedien was released from an a'dam.

 

Oooh.  I wonder if that might be part of what pisses Egwene off at Rand?  Hmm, possibilities there.

 

I don't know--Rand wants this treaty, but he's not stupid. With access to the type of knowledge Semirhage has the Seanchan would be the strongest channeling organisation in the land by a considerable amount.

 

I don't see Rand giving that to them.

 

I agree. Theres no way in hell Rand should give Semirhage to Tuon, I would be VERY dissapointed if he did. she is too valuable a prisoner. Also, if Semirhage escapes I will put the book down unless there is something big to make up for it, like Moridin and Shaidar showing up to get her.

[moroten]

I dont think that Graendal was turned by the 13 Myyrdrals thing. Wasnt is she that led Sammael to the shadow? I remember reading that somewhere. I too like the idea of her turning side, if only for a short time.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 01:34:18 AM

Graendal has an angreal, Alivia does not. Graendal is stronger than Alivia.

 

 

Alivia had an angreal at the cleansing theres nothing to say she will not gain access to it or another at some time.  Rand it seems has a significant stake in ensuring Alivia survives and also that she is as strong as possible.

 

Well, given Nynaeve is paranoid about Alivia killing Rand I doubt she'll be giving up hers again any time soon.

 

But the point was that all your basing this on is Alivia's strength, which in a world with angreal or sa'angreal, or linking, is silly. We saw how well Alivia's greater strength stood her against Cyndane--and that was with Alivia having an angreal and Cyndane not--not to mention all the other defensive ter'angreal. Here your speaking of--at best--both having angreal. Alivia would be served up on a plate.

 

Aviendha at least has been trained in the knowledge gained from Moghedian. Alivia would not stand a chance against Graendal. Not without extensive training which Rand has already stated none of the Aes Sedai will provide.

 

dont think that Graendal was turned by the 13 Myyrdrals thing. Wasnt is she that led Sammael to the shadow? I remember reading that somewhere. I too like the idea of her turning side, if only for a short time.

 

Indeed, Graendal was amongst the first to turn to the shadow, and prior to Semirhage discovering the method of turning someone forcefully.

[benr]

I see Rand getting over his fear/loathing of killing women when he finds out Graendal took out Asmo:  "What?!  You took out my revered teacher?"  Zap.

 

(Didn't think we could get through this without a mention, did you?)

[Charlz Guybon]

You mean other than Nynaeve of course. But yea I agree, if anyone takes out Graendal it should be Alivia definitely. It would fit in well

 

I don't think Nynaeve could take Graendal . Moghedien skill is in TAR rather then the power and Graendal is significantly stronger so Nynaeve couldn't use the same tactic she used against Moghedien which was no skill all strength.

 

Nynaeve's learned a lot since then and has an angreal and a lot of useful ter'angreal. She would put up a good fight.

[Thor]

i see graendal surviving the last battle planning on living in some secluded place, only to have a party pooper.  I have no idea who this party pooper will be.

 

and alivia even with angrael will stand no chance against graendal.  graendal took out both moghedien and cyndane, and we all know cyndane more than held her own against alivia.

[Luckers]

i see graendal surviving the last battle planning on living in some secluded place, only to have a party pooper.  I have no idea who this party pooper will be.

 

and alivia even with angrael will stand no chance against graendal.  graendal took out both moghedien and cyndane, and we all know cyndane more than held her own against alivia.

 

If any of the Forsaken can survive it would be Graendal.

[mnwhiterose]

Sorry. I would love to see Graendal taken down by a "pretty" such as Narishma.  All she has to do is take one look at him and she will want him.  And then he and his Aes Sedai will lay the smackdown on her.

 

I really need to go back and re-read the books. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Narishma is as good a candidate as any, and better than most.

[Jethro]

But the point was that all your basing this on is Alivia's strength, which in a world with angreal or sa'angreal, or linking, is silly. We saw how well Alivia's greater strength stood her against Cyndane--and that was with Alivia having an angreal and Cyndane not--not to mention all the other defensive ter'angreal. Here your speaking of--at best--both having angreal. Alivia would be served up on a plate

 

Not necessarily. Alivia is 400 years old IIRC. Thats a long time for someone who uses the Power as a weapon. I myself believe that Alivia cannot be held by the same standards as most Third Agers with respect to potential fights. I have vague memories of Alivia possibly knowing every way to kill someone with the Power. Am I remembering right? Even the arguement of Third Ager versus Chosen knowledge doesnt apply here if you ask me, because Alivia has been leashed for longer than most of the current Aes Sedai characters have been alive.

 

Well, given Nynaeve is paranoid about Alivia killing Rand I doubt she'll be giving up hers again any time soon.

 

Also given that Rand thinks Alivia is very important to him sacrificing himself, all Rand needs to do is bring up that he thinks Alivia is crucial to him succeeding the Last Battle, and Nynaeve would pretty much be forced to give the angreal to her. Stonrg willed or not, Nynaeve is becoming less and less stubborn. She is a hothead, she isnt stupid.

 

Quote from: sillyman on Today at 05:45:36 AM

Quote from: Jethro on Today at 04:26:21 AM

You mean other than Nynaeve of course. But yea I agree, if anyone takes out Graendal it should be Alivia definitely. It would fit in well

 

I don't think Nynaeve could take Graendal . Moghedien skill is in TAR rather then the power and Graendal is significantly stronger so Nynaeve couldn't use the same tactic she used against Moghedien which was no skill all strength.

 

Nynaeve's learned a lot since then and has an angreal and a lot of useful ter'angreal. She would put up a good fight

 

You beat me to it Charlz. On top of that, most of the knowledge she has gained has come from Moghedien, and she learned some very useful tricks like inverting weaves IIRC.

 

Quote from: Thor on Today at 08:50:51 AM

i see graendal surviving the last battle planning on living in some secluded place, only to have a party pooper.  I have no idea who this party pooper will be.

 

and alivia even with angrael will stand no chance against graendal.  graendal took out both moghedien and cyndane, and we all know cyndane more than held her own against alivia.

 

If any of the Forsaken can survive it would be Graendal.

 

What about Demandred? Graendal risks taking people of high stature; Demandred has never ever put himself at risk as far as we know, other than at the Cleansing. Hes the only male left in his original body.

 

Narishma is as good a candidate as any, and better than most.

 

Hes not Aes Sedai  ;D   No seriously though I wouldnt be that impressed if Narishma handled any Chosen, unless Dashiva turned up alive and Narishma finished him. I dont think hes been around long enough to deserve that kind of thunder, too many other characters deserve a Chosen kill before any Ashaman in my opinion.

 

How about Logain versus Demandred? I'd personally like that more than any obvious matchups like Logain versus Taim. In fact I'd rather Rand killed Taim, but I doubt I'l get my way

[RobertAlexWillis]

For all the people who are thinking that Nynaeve's tiny bit of training from an unwilling Moghedien would help her against Graendal ...

 

... remember the part when Graendal tied Moghedien and Cyndane in knots at the same time?

 

Your best bet against Graendal is sending in a man who can channel, and is therefore immune to Compulsion while channeling.  Actually, your best bet, if you get the chance to plan, is sending in multiple male/female circles with males in control and angreal or sa'angreal all around.

 

Narishma/Callandor, anyone?  Although he would need a female in control of the circle then ...

 

I wonder if females linked with males holding saidin share their immunity to Compulsion? ... hmmm ... If so, then a Narishma/Callandor circle, guided by someone like Aviendha or Alivia, would be the linchpin of an ideal strike force.

[Luckers]

Not necessarily. Alivia is 400 years old IIRC. Thats a long time for someone who uses the Power as a weapon. I myself believe that Alivia cannot be held by the same standards as most Third Agers with respect to potential fights. I have vague memories of Alivia possibly knowing every way to kill someone with the Power. Am I remembering right? Even the arguement of Third Ager versus Chosen knowledge doesnt apply here if you ask me, because Alivia has been leashed for longer than most of the current Aes Sedai characters have been alive.

 

Alivia had a strong angreal, and ter'angreal designed to defend against one power attacks and yet barely survived her fight with Cyndane--who was less than half her strength at that stage, and had not known ter'angreal like the ones Alivia was wearing were even possible.

 

The comments about knowing how to destroy things come from Aes Sedai whose battle experience is limited. Besides, battle and dueling are different things. Seanchan have very little experience with one on one channeler battles.

 

Also given that Rand thinks Alivia is very important to him sacrificing himself, all Rand needs to do is bring up that he thinks Alivia is crucial to him succeeding the Last Battle, and Nynaeve would pretty much be forced to give the angreal to her. Stonrg willed or not, Nynaeve is becoming less and less stubborn. She is a hothead, she isnt stupid.

 

Rand's already brought up that he thinks she's crucial. Nynaeve disagrees. Which is why when he tried to get her to train Alivia she refused point blank.

 

Just as she will with an angreal.

 

And as a side note, i would say she is becoming less and less of a hothead, but no less stubborn.

 

 

[Jethro]

Involving Callandor would defeat and and maybe even all Chosen if were being as black and white as it seems.

 

.. remember the part when Graendal tied Moghedien and Cyndane in knots at the same time?

 

Can I get a page reference on that? I dont recall it. Even so though, the example would only compare if it was an actual fight, which it wont have been, and also the example is flawed as Cyndane has always had the mind trap, and Moghedien probably had it then as well, meaning channeling might have side effects or bring on punishment.

 

nd as a side note, i would say she is becoming less and less of a hothead, but no less stubborn.

 

So you're saying if Rand said to Nynaeve that Alivia needed them to help Rand sacrifice himself in a way that allows him to come back, she would still be stubborn about it and not give them?

 

Also Luckers, you add that Cyndane is reduced in strength as if that makes a difference. Since its unlikely that she will obtain her original strength again, then the reduction doesnt help your side of the debate stand. Alivias angreal made her stronger than Lanfear was, which in itself is a decent difference.

[mnwhiterose]

I think I missed something.  Where does it say that if a male is channeling, he is immune to Compulsion?  I was just saying that Narishma is so beautiful that Graendal will be blinded by his beauty and unable to channel.

[Thor]

people drew inference from sammuel's comment that 'in the fury of saidin, safe from graendal's compulsion' or something in those lines.  personally i've always seen it more as a metaphoric way of saying he can fend her off since he is already holding the power.

anyways, this is another point that is ambiguous and i'd rather not speculate about it.

 

and yes, graendal beat cyndanne + moghedien at the same time, which is when SH stepped in.

[Jethro]

and yes, graendal beat cyndanne + moghedien at the same time, which is when SH stepped in.

 

I'd really like to read this as I dont remember it, can we get a page reference? Im not saying I dont believe, I want to see for myself.

[RobertAlexWillis]

TPoD chapter 12

[Charlz Guybon]

For all the people who are thinking that Nynaeve's tiny bit of training from an unwilling Moghedien would help her against Graendal ...

 

I was thinking more of her work with Cadsuane and Alivia.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was thinking more of her work with Cadsuane and Alivia.

 

That would certainly be more applicable, but still not sufficient in my view.  The more I think about it, the more than sending a dude after her makes sense.  Graendal's greatest strength is Compulsion, and male channelers have a "Get out of Compulsion free" card.

 

Which, incidentally, makes her failure at the Cleansing all the more disturbing.  Verin was leading an all women circle ... the ONLY all women circle, if I remember correctly (yes, Cads and Alivia weren't linked to men, but they weren't linked to anyone).  Its .... difficult .... for me to believe that Graendal could get the total drop on Moggy and Cyndane at the same time, but for some reason couldn't Compel Verin's circle?  I wonder if linking provides protection, whether a man is involved or not?

 

That whole encounter between Graendal and Verin is problematic, to me ...

[benr]

Verin will do that to you, RAW - remember, she is more than she seems.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah .... thats not exactly what I meant.  Its more of what Graendal didn't do than what Verin did do.  We have Verin's PoV for that fight.

[42Bonzo88]

     Attention! Dictator speaking. I am very glad that you all mentioned my *cough* mistake about Messanna without directly inferring that I would actually make a mistake, very good now I don't have to send out the killer bunnies!  

 

     This has been great so far, all very great posts. I saw a couple dealing with non-channelers mainly Berlain and Soreila, both of which are great choices. Are there any more suggestions in that way? I wonder if Graendal would expect an attack from someone with the power, and be surprised with maybe a group of Maidens, or something? Either way, with or without the power, I hope its an epic battle.

 

     By the way, Mr. Ares, I am still taking applications for head of my police force! :)

[Ziggdiezan]

Avienda would get owned i think. I think it will be like Elayne, Avidenda and Nyneave (sp i bet) vs Graendal, Moghedien and Cyndane. That would be interesting.

[sillyman]

Alivia had a strong angreal, and ter'angreal designed to defend against one power attacks and yet barely survived her fight with Cyndane.

 

I wasn't aware that Alivia had the rest of Nyneave's gear. Also (and I am not sure if i am making this up or a actually remember it) is it not possible to fight off compulsion.  The reason Lanfear and Moghedien succumbed so easily is that they already given there souls to the the dark one.  Alivia by comparison has broken the shackles of her damane brainwashing which suggests a formidable will.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wasn't aware that Alivia had the rest of Nyneave's gear.

 

She did.  Nynaeve specifically said, as she was handing them over, "You might as well take this, too.  I don't suppose I need an angreal if I'm going to be using the most powerful sa'angreal ever made."  (WH ch 35)

 

Also (and I am not sure if i am making this up or a actually remember it) is it not possible to fight off compulsion.

 

No, the weaves can be countered.  Graendal was just faster than Moghedien and Cyndane.

 

Lanfear and Moghedien succumbed so easily is that they already given there souls to the the dark one.

 

That has nothing to do with it.  Nynaeve and Elayne are at least as "strong-willed" as Alivia, and they succumbed really quickly and very completely.