Who is the naughty forsaken?

[AmbeRebmA]

This has probably been discussed before but I just finished rereading the series for the nth time and this question is stuck in my head. Who sent all those Trollocs and Myrddraal after Rand in Tear?

 

In KOD, during the Forsaken meeting in TAR, Moridin says that Sammael or someone disguised as him orders a very large number of Trollocs and Myrdraal into the Way. As matters stand at the moment, two things are certain about this order:

1. That individual had to have been a channeler with enough authority to order Myrdraal around;

2. That individual is strong (suicidal) enough to do something like this without Moridin’s knowledge.

 

Even though both female and male forsaken could have masqueraded as Sammael, most can be easily discarded from the start. We can quickly reject Sammael as the culprit, since Jordan confirmed that Sammael was indeed toast at the end of ACoS. At this point in the books Moridin has most of the forsaken strongly in hand:

1. Cyndane and Morghedien wouldn’t dream of such independent actions with their cour'souvra around Moridin’s neck;

2. Mesaana has been thoroughly educated on how to obey orders by Shaidar Haran;

3. Semirhage has her hands full directing Seanchan and organizing Rand’s capture via the male a’dam.

4. Aran’gar is both busy with Egwene and can’t be a suspect since we learn all this information through her/his POV.

5. Graendal’s activities are being monitored by Shaidar Haran and she knows that Moridin is Naeblis, hence it’s unlikely that she would risk her neck to strike at Rand since he poses no threat to her at the moment.

6. Osan’gar has not been seen since Shadar Logoth so he is very likely dead.

 

The only other possibility is the mini-forsaken Taim. He is certainly a powerful channeler and by all evidence is a prime candidate for Dreadlord/New Age Chosen title. But if he is so important, why has Moridin not added him to the forsaken meetings? Also, since Moridin is leading the strings of pretty much all the remaining Chosen, could he allow Taim so much freedom and given him enough knowledge to commandeer a hundred Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways? Could Taim really be so sure of himself as to go behind Naeblis’ back to attack Rand?  I personally think not.

 

Hence by the process of elimination we only have Demandred, who is my first choice. What do you think?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Taim.  It fits him best, which would mean he's no longer "mini-Forsaken" but a full blown member.

[Shard]

I have always liked the idea of the DO getting New Choosen and it certainly seems like Taim and Alvarin are new Choosen to me.

[Majsju]

I have always liked the idea of the DO getting New Choosen and it certainly seems like Taim and Alvarin are new Choosen to me.

 

Alviarin is not a new forsaken, the mark she got from SH was not the Chosen Mark, rather SH just marking her as belonging to him.

Taim on the other hand...

[AmbeRebmA]

Alviarin would make a very sad Chosen at the moment, getting a daily penance from the mistress of novices :'(. Shaidar Haran marked her as his, but she is too weak in both the power and position (now that she is not keeper) to be compared to even the weakest Chosen.

 

Taim does fit the criteria for power, but how would he know to masquerade as Sammael? Has he even met the man? From what I remember Sammael had no dealings with the Black Tower.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

RJ plainly stated that Alviarin's mark is NOT the Chosen mark.  ( http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=184 its question 2).

 

But as Maj said ... Taim, on the other hand ...

 

And he wouldn't have to even know what Sammael looked like to pose as him (although I think he probably does know what Sammael looked like).  The Forsaken hide their appearance all the time.  Just appear all mystery cloaked, say you're Sammael, and if the Shadowspawn feels your Forsaken mark, they're not going to ask questions.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

Why can't it be moridin? He could just say that someone else was acting as sammael to throw them off and really have sent the trollocs himself.

[Charlz Guybon]

Why can't it be moridin? He could just say that someone else was acting as sammael to throw them off and really have sent the trollocs himself.

Doesn't Moridin want Rand alive for now?

[Sab]

As I posted in another topic, IMO I would doubt Taim would have the knowledge to impersonate Samm.  I think Taim is a high ranking DF. 

 

 

Does Shadar have the power to disguise himself?  To me the 3 prime suspects are Cyndane, Moghedien, and Mesaana.  Though doesn't seem like Mesaana.  Those are the 3 with the most to lose if caught doing something so the 3 who would be most likely to disguise themselves if they were doing something bad.  Semi didn't try and hide anything when she tossed a fireball at Rand, clearly not concerned if he died.  Besides far as I know Rand staying alive is Mordin's wish not necessarily a command from the DO.  Didn't in one the POV's during the meeting one Forsaken was thinking Mordin was going to be sorely disappointed about Rand?

 

[AmbeRebmA]

To me the 3 prime suspects are Cyndane, Moghedien, and Mesaana.  Though doesn't seem like Mesaana.

 

There is no way Moghedien would have the guts to go against Moridin on such a large scale. She was terrified by what Moridin would do about her “Balefire Nyneve” excursion, even though she was sure he wouldn’t care that much. Even when she was free to do as she wished, the Spider would never consider a direct assault – it’s not her style.

 

Cyndane has a “Kill Lews Therin” mindset and is not a coward, but she is too firmly held by Moridin to orchestrate and carry out such a plan. By the few glimpses that we get of her, she is terrified of Moridin and values her life enough not to cross him like this.

 

And Mesaana is a very unhappy Chosen at the moment after receiving Shaidar Haran’s attentions.  She doesn’t appear to be recovered from that encounter.

 

[metria31183]

I'm a little shaky on the timeline going from the end of ACoS to KoD.  Could the Shadowspawn in the Ways been a something Sammael ordered before he died?  Just putting it out there as a suggestion.  If it doesn't fit the timeline then feel free to disregard.

[Sab]

I'm a little shaky on the timeline going from the end of ACoS to KoD.  Could the Shadowspawn in the Ways been a something Sammael ordered before he died?  Just putting it out there as a suggestion.  If it doesn't fit the timeline then feel free to disregard.

 

Unlikely since if they stayed in the ways that long, the black wind thing most likely would of killed them all.  Someone had to tell them where to strike.

 

Thats the point I was making, most the others like Demandred might be able to get away with ordering Shadowspawn to attack.  They have no qualms about disobeying Moridin (as seen with Semi trying to kill Rand when her capture plan got disrupted)The 3 I mentioned are the ones who have no room for a mistake, so anything they do would have to be hidden and great care taken to hide they were behind it.  Now might not be them since we don't know how far Mog and Cy are allowed to wander from Moridin.  And Mog is a coward and would most likely strike at Ny then at Rand.  We don't know who the black sisters with Rand report to.  Do they report to the BA in the tower or straight to a Forsaken?

 

Taim I discount since we have seen no evidence his power is great enough to give orders as Samm.

 

 

[AmbeRebmA]

I see your point about the three so it's definitely plausible although improbable. And I totally agree with you about Taim – there is no evidence that he possesses that kind of power. If he was a full member of the Chosen Club, why don’t others know about him and he is not invited to their meetings?

[trakand_01]

Is this the battle right after Loial marries Erith? I've quite literally just read this bit.  I wondered who it was too. Taim I guess makes the most sense. Rand thinks that whoever it is has learnt 'Ishamaels' Trick'. Or perhaps they just deciphered Logain's weaves and followed him? He arrives just hours before the attack, straight from the BT from what I can decipher.

[moroten]

Should also add that Logain mentions Taim's urge to know Rand's location.

[Majsju]

The attack is very much Taims MO. Blunt, no finesse whatsoever. Just charge straight ahead and hope for the best.

 

Demandred on the other hand, he was one of the greatest generals/tacticians during the War of Power, only way he would pull off such an attack was if he deliberatly wanted to fail.

 

As for Taim not having the knowledge to dusguise himself...We are talking about the bloke who taught Rand how to test others if they can channel, the bloke who is teaching the Asha'man a whole bunch of funky weaves.

[MikeRiley]

Throwing that many trollocs at Rand wouldn't have failed if Lews Therin didn't take over and seize Saidin, an event nobody could have predicted. It could have been Taim, but it could just as easily be Semirhage. She was busy with Seanchan plots but that doesn't mean she couldn't make a trip to the Blight and send an army of trollocs to crush him with.

 

Didn't Rand get news of the meeting arrangements with the Seanchan some days before? Maybe his messengers were followed and then the location reported to the myrdraal who then entered the Ways. If I'm wrong and the messengers came around the time of the attack then it could be neither Taim or Semirhage because neither would have had enough time.

[Charlz Guybon]

Throwing that many trollocs at Rand wouldn't have failed if Lews Therin didn't take over and seize Saidin, an event nobody could have predicted. It could have been Taim, but it could just as easily be Semirhage. She was busy with Seanchan plots but that doesn't mean she couldn't make a trip to the Blight and send an army of trollocs to crush him with.

 

Didn't Rand get news of the meeting arrangements with the Seanchan some days before? Maybe his messengers were followed and then the location reported to the myrdraal who then entered the Ways. If I'm wrong and the messengers came around the time of the attack then it could be neither Taim or Semirhage because neither would have had enough time.

 

Nor would it have failed if Logain, Nynaeve, Alivia, Cadsuane, etc hadn't been there. Be that has it may however I still agree with Majsju. The modus operandi just screams Taim. Demandred would be more subtle.

[trakand_01]

the bloke who is teaching the Asha'man a whole bunch of funky weaves.

 

Some of them.

 

How many are in the BT now? Logain reports to Rand (just before the battle) that Taim has I think around 100 - 150 purely in his cronies gang. If he's rivalling the WT, there must be what, near to 1k altogether?

[Sab]

I like Taim, he is an evil bastard.  But my problem with the theories surrounding him is we have so few of his POV's to go on to judge what he knows and his true roll with the DO.  He had ordered Rands death once and almost had it with using a few Asha'man.  Why not just send 50 of his Asha'man at him and poof dead dragon? No way they could of stopped 50 men suddenly appearing and channeling like mad.  Appear a little way off so no one can detect the gateway opening. 

 

Maybe the mysterious Forsaken who was commanding Slayer when he killed those 2 people in the inn.  Slayer thought it strange one the Forsaken taking such care to hide his true appearence around him. 

[Osan`gar]

I have always liked the idea of the DO getting New Choosen and it certainly seems like Taim and Alvarin are new Choosen to me.

 

Alviarin is not a new forsaken, the mark she got from SH was not the Chosen Mark, rather SH just marking her as belonging to him.

Taim on the other hand...

 

one could argue that Shaidar Haran as the DO's "personal" representative marked her for, or as, the DO. not exactly chosen/fordaken status but close. He obviously places some value on her to take a persoanl interest, and to go so far as protecting her from the chosen. i think that if she becomes more useful or powerful she may be made chosen.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm sure Taim is a newly risen Chosen. His palace has the gauntlet gripping three lightning bolts sigil that other male Forsaken have used.

[Osan`gar]

I'm sure Taim is a newly risen Chosen. His palace has the gauntlet gripping three lightning bolts sigil that other male Forsaken have used.

 

if Taim isn't one of the chosen he certainly has put in his application and paid his dues a year in adavance :P i personally think he is a new dreadlord. he is more than likely proving himself for being chosen by bringing the DO the majority of the BT and maybe by killing Rand.

[Charlz Guybon]

I have always liked the idea of the DO getting New Choosen and it certainly seems like Taim and Alvarin are new Choosen to me.

 

Alviarin is not a new forsaken, the mark she got from SH was not the Chosen Mark, rather SH just marking her as belonging to him.

Taim on the other hand...

 

one could argue that Shaidar Haran as the DO's "personal" representative marked her for or as the DO. not exactly chosen/fordaken status but close. He obviously places some value on her to take a persoanl interest and to go so far as protecting her from the chosen. i think that if she becomes more useful or powerful she may be made chosen.

 

While all channeling darkfriends during the Age of Legends were Chosen, I don't see any chance that Alvarin will have that possibility. None of the other Chosen would accept having someone so far beneath them in power and put on the same level as them. They view modern Aes Sedai as uncultured uneducated savages. The only reason they'd accept someone like Taim is the raw power and power base he's assembled.

[Osan`gar]

I have always liked the idea of the DO getting New Choosen and it certainly seems like Taim and Alvarin are new Choosen to me.

 

Alviarin is not a new forsaken, the mark she got from SH was not the Chosen Mark, rather SH just marking her as belonging to him.

Taim on the other hand...

 

one could argue that Shaidar Haran as the DO's "personal" representative marked her for or as the DO. not exactly chosen/fordaken status but close. He obviously places some value on her to take a persoanl interest and to go so far as protecting her from the chosen. i think that if she becomes more useful or powerful she may be made chosen.

 

While all channeling darkfriends during the Age of Legends were Chosen, I don't see any chance that Alvarin will have that possibility. None of the other Chosen would accept having someone so far beneath them in power and put on the same level as them. They view modern Aes Sedai as uncultured uneducated savages. The only reason they'd accept someone like Taim is the raw power and power base he's assembled.

 

Thats the beauty of the mark she received.Iit protects her. That protection against anyone other than SH makes me think he has plans for her that the chosen would normally take action against... Other wise why protect her? No. he values her for some reason, and the chosen will fear her for it what ever it is. This does not make her chosen but the DO persoanl interest in her means something??? but what ???