Memory of Light - The Plot

[white rabbitt]

what about loial hes been a big part of the story since the beginning

[Guest Majsju]

Another thing confirmed by RJ' date=' Demandred is not Taim, Taim is not Demandred.[/quote']

 

That one get's really tricky. Understand, I'm not wild about the idea of Taim as Demandred, but...

 

I believe the question he was asked was whether Demandred had been impersonating Taim, not whether Demandred was Taim. If the question had been, "Is Demandred masquerading as Mazrim Taim?", the answer might have been different.

 

If you are somebody, ie. if you created that persona yourself, you don't have to impersonate them. There may never have been a Mazrim Taim any more than there ever was a Lord Brend, or a Lord Gaebril.

 

Mesaana is most likely impersonating a real Aes Sedai. Sammael masqueraded as the entirely fictional Lord Brend.

 

The quote you're thinking of is "Has Demandred been posing as Taim?".

Now, you are always posing when you're pretending to be someone other than yourself. If I put on a silly hat and started to call myself Charlie Bucket, I would be posing as said Charlie Bucket, even though said Charlie doesn't actually exist.

 

Then of course there are a few other indirect quotes as well, like RJ stating Taim's reason for going to Caemlyn. And the little quote from D*Con -05...

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

[Luckers]

On Demandred and Taim.

 

Maj is right, aside from RJ having said it two times, there is enough evidence in WH to logically disprove it anyway, that being Kisman thinking on how Demandred and Taim gave him the same orders, as if being unaware of each other, and later we have Demandred POV from the Cleansing when he encounters and an Asha'man that Taim would have known very well, and doesn't recognize him.

 

On Taim and what he is.

 

I believe that Taim has been raised to Chosen. We know that Shadar Haren gave Alviarin a weaker version of the Chosen Mark. and that Trollocs and Myrrdraal sense that mark and obey commands from it. We know that someone commanded the attack on Rand whilst masquerading as Sammael--for the Myrdraal to have obeyed it, that person must have the Mark. We know that Sammael is dead. We know that Taim has taken Sammael's sigel from Pevara's perspective at the end of KOD, and we know that Taim used a phrase that was spoken specifically by the Dark One to the Chosen as a command. To me that suggests that the Dark One has begun to raise new Chosen to lead the Dreadlords... it even makes sense, the Chosen are dwindling and to some extent can't be trusted, with TG so close DO must have been feeling the lack, and Taim has done some very impressive work for the DO.

 

On Verin.

 

Verin isn't Black Ajah. We know this through several reasons, the most blunt being her fight with Graendal at the cleansing, and the thoughts she had during that fight. Additionally she seems bent on seeing rand survive to the last battle, she even Compelled her fellow sisters, a grievous crime, to see that he survive. She almost poisoned Cads, and only stopped when she learned he meant him well. Remember her letter "I'm convinced you can trust Cadsuane". So with that aside, her behaviour makes her the most mysterious character in the series. I don't think it's nessasary, though, for her to be black to know that Rand was on the way. Keep in mind that Verin knows many archaic things no one else does. It was she that had the document linking Ba'alzammon and Ishamael. She too knew of the struggle in perrin between choosing the axe and the hammer, something commented on only by Ishamael and Lanfear. I think she just knows a whole lot more then most people. But here is a question, what specifically is she off to do right now? She claims to be able to serve Rand better in other ways, and this comes right after her talking about the closeness of TG... my thought is that she is off to get the Horn of Valere. Remember, she is one of the few who knows where or what it is.

 

On Graendal.

 

I think she is still a relatively free agent. Unlike Cyndane or Moghedian (or Mesana) she seemed to have impressed Shadar Haren in their meeting. I don't think she was reigned in, therefore she is still a force in Arad Domon, more like then not--though its possible the arrival of the Wise Ones and Asha'men drove her out of there, but i suspect a battle will take place between her and Aviendha--as i said in my original post, avi will likely get a chapter because she's been somewhat absent. I'm convinced in that chapter we will see the Trolloc attack on Saldaea begin, and Graendal uncovered, though i dont think Graendal will die or be capture, i think rather that Avi will drive her away.

 

On The CoT Prophecy.

 

I concur with Maj that the left and right hands are Perrin and Mat. Aside from the fact that Osen'gar is dead, and neither falter or stray implies actual death to me (though an argument could be made for falter) and in what way was Aran'gar straying... she was doing exactly what she was supposed to be doing. Additionally in that book we see Perrin completely ignore the mission he was on in favour of Faile, he even leaves behind his morals, with the torture and all that. And elsewhere Mat is similarily destracted away from the main battle with the shadow. And finally, sontextually, that sentence follows on with that the right and left hands failures lead mankind to a crossroad, yet how would any of the forsakens failures endanger mankind? No, to me Mat and Perrin are the left and right spoken of.

 

On Paired Confrontations.

 

I somewhat agree with Maj here too. RJ is too realistic in his storymaking to let every character have there deeply thematic final confrontation with their oposites. I just don't see it happening.

 

On Forced Conversion

 

I have my theories about this already having taken place as well. I have this pet one about how Sheriam was turned, and that her torturer is not a darkfriend, but a sitter who learnt that she was a darkfriend. I'm guessing that this theory is wrong, but i still like it. heh.

[Bob T Dwarf]

On Taim and what he is.

 

I believe that Taim has been raised to Chosen. We know that Shadar Haren gave Alviarin a weaker version of the Chosen Mark. and that Trollocs and Myrrdraal sense that mark and obey commands from it. We know that someone commanded the attack on Rand whilst masquerading as Sammael--for the Myrdraal to have obeyed it' date=' that person must have the Mark. We know that Sammael is dead. We know that Taim has taken Sammael's sigel from Pevara's perspective at the end of KOD, and we know that Taim used a phrase that was spoken specifically by the Dark One to the Chosen as a command. To me that suggests that the Dark One has begun to raise new Chosen to lead the Dreadlords... it even makes sense, the Chosen are dwindling and to some extent can't be trusted, with TG so close DO must have been feeling the lack, and Taim has done some very impressive work for the DO.

[/quote']

 

Referring to Jordan again. He has said that the mark Alviarin got from Shaidar Haran is not the same mark the Forsaken receive. It's only equivalent to an ownership tattoo. No Shadowspawn will try to kill her, because she is marked as SH's property, but none of them will obey her either, since she is not one of the Forsaken.

 

Logically, Taim hasn't risen any higher if he is indeed Dark. He might become a modern Dreadlord, but he isn't "Chosen" status yet. Jordan has also said that the DO shares the Forsaken's opinion of current channelers... that they're largely ignorant, barely trained and of no great note. The DO is not inclined to grant such as that any great status.

[Luckers]

Yes bob, and you will note that i said that in my post. Nor is Alviarins failure to rise indicitive of taim's position. I still think its logical that Taim has indeed risen higher. Remember, he was probably trained at some stage by one of the Forsaken, he is a lot stronger the Alviarin in the power, and he has done some fairly great things for the Dark One.

[dalic]

About the new dreadlords. What about the Aiel men who go running into the Blight when they learn they can channel. Seems like the bad guys would have figured this out a long time ago and started capturing them to be turned to the shadow

[Luckers]

Thats actually not a a bad point. I mean, we know that in the Trolloc Wars there were male dreadlords, and we must assume that they were trained by Ishamael, but where did they come from...

 

It occurs to me that that is possibly what Taim was originally. A darkfriend trained to channel by ishamael to gather and train new dreadlords for the upcoming TG, which Ishamael must have known was coming, so if it was done with randland proper, maybe theres an aiel dude out there somewhere doing the same... the male aiel channelers are an untapped resource to my mind, something rand should have been looking to long ago.

[rd2000]

With the typical Aiel mindset, and determination. I would have to say very few Aiel men turned to the DO. Maybe a few, but not very many. They go into the blight to fight to the death, and stopping someone from dying, when they are determined to, can be pretty tough. Also, most Aiel men who can channel are detected at birth, and left out to die. The new Dreadlords (if there are any) will be Taim's followers.

[Luckers]

Where did you hear that male aiel are detected at birth and left out? Thats never mentioned anywhere in the books, and in fact there is quite a lot in them that contradicts that.

 

In any case what you are forgetting is that if they were forcibly turned their strength of will would have no impact on that.

 

The main thing is that the Dark will have to be actively recruiting channelers because one hundred asha'men and (best case scenario) three hundred aes sedai arn't going to be able to stand against nine hundred asha'men, 1,700 aes sedai, 1,800 kin, 6,500 Wise Ones, 3000 windfinders and however the hell many damane (note, with the Shaido there are at least 1,500 damane, probably more)

[Tylins Toy]

I always envisioned the last last battle being at Tarwin's Gap, and the hammer and anvil used, with Rand coming out in the end and destroying all who oppose, and stading in light when the quiet of battle's end comes, everyone in awe.

 

Then it's off to Shayol Ghul to die (metamorphically speaking or not).

[ajc42]

The last battle could be fought anywhere, or even everywhere is Jordan's feeling adventurous. A fair few of the waygates are still open and, while shadowspawn cant Travel, darkfriends certainly can. Aside from that there's a whole lot of blightboarder for the trollocs (et al) to come across. I can see battle being fought across the borderlands with Lan focused at Tarwin's gap, the Aiel in Arad Doman and the other armies spread inbetween.

 

As far as the number of channelers are concerned, I think the shadow's shear weight of numbers will make up for any difference on that level. Let's not forget that Aes Sedai have been getting weaker in the power for centuries and, although they have a fair few new novices, they won't be ready to fight in time for TG. The Kin know no aggressive weaves and we've never really seen Wise Ones in action (discounting the Shaido) since they don't take part in battle. Aside from the Asha'man and Sul'dam, the light hasn't got anyone who could go one on one against a dark channeler with the exception of perhaps a handfull of Aes Sedai.

[Red States Rule!]

Lovely ideas everyone. A few questions:

 

We don't know how trollocs are born. Are there female trollocs? What do they eat, all of the time that is? Are they spawned like in FoTR at Isengard?

 

Going with this thought and looking at the map, I can't see how the bad guys can make up a large army as they don't have the land to subsist on in comparison to Randland, Waste, Shara, and Seanchan.

 

Three questions:

1. If the bad guys can't travel, can they skim? I assume they can't do this either.

 

2. The only way aside of a march south would be through the remaining waygates. The only person found that can influence Machin Shin to get their "army" through the waygates is Padan Fain. (that's interesting- maybe the 100,000 trolloc attack was started by Fain) Fain is outside the DO, so how is this considered the last battle?

 

3. Cancelling out 1 and 2.. the only thing left is a simple march south. I don't care how overwhelming their army is, Rand will beat them down by traveling and using the Power to mass attack the bad guy armies. This means that the only true hope the DO has is to have Taim and Aes Sedai whomever tie up all the good channelers behind the lines while the armies roll over Sheinar.

 

Sound right?

[joeybsmash]

i wrote this for the end

The "remnant of a remnant" will be the traveling people (see The Shadow Rising). i think if it comes to a choice then that seanchan woman will make it, not rand. after the battle the one power will begin to fade from the world. as eliada's maid egwene will either kill eliada, capture her, or use the world of dreams to torture/persuade her into giving up. loial will slaver over that library aviendha found and aviendha's only appearance will be when she informs rand of his children's birth. or the babies will be born after the battle. andor will have to deal with the seanchan and there will probably be a battle or almost befor rand gets his truce. it is this truce that reunites mat and rand. rand will probably bow to toun thus fuflling the seanchan prophecy. if the seanchan didn't kill masema(and i don't think they did) then perrin will have to (faile may fall victim to his preachings). the blood on the rocks of SG will be from rand's scar and the evil of aridhol will seal the DO.

[joeybsmash]

oh f-bomb!

i forgot to add that the light will launch a preemptive strike and egwene will secure the horn for mat (she knows doesn't she, if not then elayne will tell her).

[Guest Majsju]

oh f-bomb!

i forgot to add that the light will launch a preemptive strike and egwene will secure the horn for mat (she knows doesn't she' date=' if not then elayne will tell her).[/quote']

 

Egwene doesn't know where it is. Very few sisters do. She knows Verin brought it back to the White Tower, and that it's most likely hidden somewhere inside, but the tower is a huge place.

[Luckers]

Mmm which is why i think thats what verins off to do... grab the horn.

[The Drewman Reborn]

Mmm which is why i think thats what verins off to do... grab the horn.

 

Yes, I think Verin realizes that the TG is at hand and went to the tower to get the horn for Mat. She has spent time with Perrin and Rand, I think Mat is next.

[Ilyena]

I'm still convinced that someone will get turned to the dark at some point, I'd bet a lot that RJ put it in there for a reason, even if it's just so the black can try and be caught before they finish or to explain the sudden turn around of someone we know isn't black (such as Sheriam...)

 

I'm pretty sure it was said in earlier books that the BA had a plan involving freeing Taim. What if it's found that Taim has also been turned to the DO, and that's a big reason he's getting all those evil Asha'man (just his cronies, the dedicated, soldiers, and Logain are all good guys :D )

[Guest Majsju]

From an old chat...

 

[Punisher> Have you ever thought about reinstituting some of the old ideas from earlier books? For example, in "The Dragon Reborn" you had a situation with thirteen dark sisters and thirteen Myrdral to forceably convert someone to the darker side of things. It seems you have abandoned that. Do you think you might have something like that pop up again at some unexpected moment? It doesn't seem realistic for the black ajah to abandon the idea

 

[@R-JORDAN> I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of 13 AS and 13 Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact its a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

http://www.dromen-demonen.nl/luitingh_htdocs/transjordan.html

[Slayer]

Lovely ideas everyone. A few questions:

 

We don't know how trollocs are born. Are there female trollocs? What do they eat' date=' all of the time that is? Are they spawned like in FoTR at Isengard?

 

Going with this thought and looking at the map, I can't see how the bad guys can make up a large army as they don't have the land to subsist on in comparison to Randland, Waste, Shara, and Seanchan.

 

Three questions:

1. If the bad guys can't travel, can they skim? I assume they can't do this either.

 

2. The only way aside of a march south would be through the remaining waygates. The only person found that can influence Machin Shin to get their "army" through the waygates is Padan Fain. (that's interesting- maybe the 100,000 trolloc attack was started by Fain) Fain is outside the DO, so how is this considered the last battle?

 

3. Cancelling out 1 and 2.. the only thing left is a simple march south. I don't care how overwhelming their army is, Rand will beat them down by traveling and using the Power to mass attack the bad guy armies. This means that the only true hope the DO has is to have Taim and Aes Sedai whomever tie up all the good channelers behind the lines while the armies roll over Sheinar.

 

Sound right?[/quote']

 

I believe that it says somewhere that Trollocs are spawned. In the Guide, it says something along those lines. They are sterile because they are an amalgamation of several different animals. There are no females.

 

Don't forget, the DO also has at least one gholam, some Jumara (remember those worms in the Blight in EotW? That is the Jumaras' original state, but they are supposed to transform into something else, though Moiraine said they couldn't transform for some reason)

I would like to see Machin Shin escape the waygates sometime soon. I want to see it wreak some havoc.

[Ilyena]

I thought that in the guide it said that originally trollocs were made in test tubes, but are now created from mating, and that female trollocs just sit around and wait for guys to mate with them ... sounds alot like some girls from school

[Guest Majsju]

Trollocs are born, and Myrdraal are an occasional offspring as well.

[Luckers]

Trollocs are born, the females are kept hidden in farms far to the north.

[Ilyena]

Yah, that's what I thought Luckers

[The Don]

hmm... I don't really have much for large scale predictions, but I do have some dream matches...

 

Rand vs Moridin

Mat vs Shaidar Haran (since he can somehow channel and Mat has the ter'angreal)

Perrin vs Slayer II (remember that guy?)

Moraine vs Cyndane II