The lack of adventure in the later novels

[Galeros]

One thing I have noticed from about say, the Fifth book onwards is the lack of adventure. The first four books had lots of adventure and exploration, but the newer ones just have a bunch of boring politics. I still like them, but I admit, I cringe everytime I get to a chapter with lots of politic stuff. To me, Fantasy is about adventure.

 

I admit, I am only on Winter's Heart right now, but I have spoiled the series for myself. So, I sort of know what happens already. And it is not that that deters from my enjoyment, if anything it ames me want to read more, but I still find the politics boring.

 

And Rand is really unlikeable. :-X

[mb]

To clarify, which definition of adventure do you mean?

1 the encountering  of danger

2 a daring, hazardous undertaking

3 an unusual, stirring experience, often a romantic nature

4 a venture or speculation in business or finance

5 a liking for danger, excitement, etc

Politics might fit in with some of those definitions.

 

Again to clarify, what about Rand is unlikeable in the later books?

 

[Galeros]

To clarify, which definition of adventure do you mean?

1 the encountering  of danger

2 a daring, hazardous undertaking

3 an unusual, stirring experience, often a romantic nature

4 a venture or speculation in business or finance

5 a liking for danger, excitement, etc

Politics might fit in with some of those definitions.

 

Again to clarify, what about Rand is unlikeable in the later books?

 

 

To me adventure is exploring new and dangerous places and fighting off dangerous enemies. They key part of adventure to me is I have to get a "Sense of Wonder" from it. Politics do not do that for me.

 

For Rand:The fact that he condones murdering any Asha'man who try and run away, and that he kills Fedwin Morr by poisoning him just because he was starting to go a little crazy, but was not raving mad. The ends do not justify the means in my book.

[Shard]

So the fixing of weather didn't consitute adventure? Mat stealing Toun away from the Seachan is not adventure? Cleasing of Saidin is not adventure?

 

Actually I think Rand was right to send someone to kill any Asha'man that left, this means they cannot be trusted. You don't know if they are DF's (and guess what they were!) and Fedwin Morr did you not see that he had indeed gone mad? If he wasn't stacking those small blocks he would be tearing apart the palace. He HAD lost his mind and the only thing they could do was put him out of his misery. They don't have the ability to deal with a man who can channel and has gone mad.

[Galeros]

So the fixing of weather didn't consitute adventure? Mat stealing Toun away from the Seachan is not adventure? Cleasing of Saidin is not adventure?[/Quote]

 

Okay, those are good examples. I guess I have just become an adventure junkie and need it constantly. The bits with the whole White Tower plot and anytime anyone is dealing with politics is a little boring to me. Even the above situations, with the exception of the last do not give me much of a "Sense of Wonder". This is purely my own fault though, as I said, I have become used to a lot of fantastic things from other novels I read that things people might say are "Fantasy", barely register for me.

 

 

Actually I think Rand was right to send someone to kill any Asha'man that left, this means they cannot be trusted. You don't know if they are DF's (and guess what they were!) and Fedwin Morr did you not see that he had indeed gone mad? If he wasn't stacking those small blocks he would be tearing apart the palace. He HAD lost his mind and the only thing they could do was put him out of his misery. They don't have the ability to deal with a man who can channel and has gone mad.

 

The ends still still do not justify the means. Killing someone because they MIGHT be a Darkfriend is still murder. Oh, and I am not talking about Dashiva, Gedwyn, and Rochaid, but rather those who run away during training, sorry if I was not clear about that.

[Shard]

That's the risk that Rand isn't willing to take, I believe he even stated this in one of the books. He wouldn't risk one of them showing up on the DO's side. Also he wasn't about to let a loose canon run around at any rate. One that could go insane at any moment.

 

Also I do think the point of the later books is showing us a Rand that is growing colder and harder. Thus the need for Caddy to teach him laughter and tears before he turns Evil.

[mb]

To me adventure is exploring new and dangerous places and fighting off dangerous enemies. They key part of adventure to me is I have to get a "Sense of Wonder" from it. Politics do not do that for me.

 

For Rand:The fact that he condones murdering any Asha'man who try and run away, and that he kills Fedwin Morr by poisoning him just because he was starting to go a little crazy, but was not raving mad. The ends do not justify the means in my book.

Ok.

 

Most of what I read (fantasy or not) has had a mixture of adventure (your definition) & politics.

 

I do not recall Rand condoning killing of Ashaman (or of anyone else). From the scene when Rand gets the letter, Rand seems to permit killing them.

 

[Galeros]

To me adventure is exploring new and dangerous places and fighting off dangerous enemies. They key part of adventure to me is I have to get a "Sense of Wonder" from it. Politics do not do that for me.

 

For Rand:The fact that he condones murdering any Asha'man who try and run away, and that he kills Fedwin Morr by poisoning him just because he was starting to go a little crazy, but was not raving mad. The ends do not justify the means in my book.

Ok.

 

Most of what I read (fantasy or not) has had a mixture of adventure (your definition) & politics.

 

I do not recall Rand condoning killing of Ashaman (or of anyone else). From the scene when Rand gets the letter, Rand seems to permit killing them.

 

 

Hehe, that is what I meant. He still allows it.

 

I still do enjoy the books, and I like most of the characters, I just wish all of the books were a little more like the first four.

[CUBAREY]

The ends still still do not justify the means. Killing someone because they MIGHT be a Darkfriend is still murder. Oh, and I am not talking about Dashiva, Gedwyn, and Rochaid, but rather those who run away during training, sorry if I was not clear about that.

 

Okay you are heading into the Final Battle where literally the survival of mankind may be at risk. You agree to train men that may go mad any minute and beigin a second breaking because the need is so grave. If they leave (half trained) they pose two seperate threats they can be Darkfriends or they can become mad an start a second breaking. You also have to do with allies (or potential allies) who see training men to become channelers as insanety ( Saiden is still tainted at this point). You have to make groundrules for potential recruits which is what Rand does. Once they have begun training and learned anything about the use of Saiden they cannot leave if they do they will be considered renegades and hunted down. What other option does Rand have.

 

You say you do not like politics. The reason why Rand imposed the death sentence on those who leave is political. No one would trust him (they would believe he has already gone mad) if he sets a school for male channelers and then lets them leave at will. Considering the real risk of the men going mad not to mention that they could be darkfriends or simply oppertunests that will use the power for their own purposes and not for the good of humanity Rand had no other choices.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

While there is more politics in the latter books I wouldn't exactly say there is a lack of adventure.  What with the exploding gateway, Rand's Campaign against the Seanchan and, well you said you were only on Winter's heart so I don't want to give away any more.  I can say that Crossroads of Twilight will be a long read for you, but it will be worth it to get to Knife of Dreams.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Rand's killing of Fedwin Morr was very much a mercy killing as Rand intended to spare him from a life of madness and physical rot.  Frankly, if I were in Morr's shoes I hope that Rand would do the same for me.  Furthermore, Morr had just demonstrated that he was, infact, a danger to those around him.

 

As for the Ashaman deserters look at it this way, if I were Shia tan I would have some of the male Forsaken test every male darkfriend for the ability to channel.  I would then slap some of that taint protection on them and send the to the Black Tower so that my enemy could train my future Dreadlords for me.  Infant, I suspect this is exactly what is going on in Taim's special classes.  While Rand is for some reason blind to Taim,  he is not stupid so he must realize that infiltration by darkfriends is a possibility.  Therefore, he must view every deserter as a potential Dreadlord.  And even if they are not darkfriends he can't have half trained and potentially mad male channelers running around unsupervised.  The Breaking is a glaring example of how much damage uncontrolled male channelers can do.  I'm sure its a tough decision but killing the deserters is the only prudent course of action.

[Gympok]

I understand not liking Rand.  I think he is being somewhat emo.

As for the adventure.  Adventure can only happen so much.  The main plot is in randland.  Not shara, seandar(not sure on the spelling) or even in the blight.  After the characters went through most of randland, you should have expected less exploration.  They are all still traveling around, its just to places we have all seen. 

 

And about the excitement.  KoD has lots of it!

[stoneface]

Keep reading.  Yes, a lot of people have noted the middle books slowing down, but I don't recall seeing that complaint much since KoD came out.  WH and CoT are already picking up the pace.

 

The middle books are a buildup for many things.  The (mercy) killing of Fedwin (in Rand's mind, better at the hand of a caring friend than by uncaring Taim) was Rand's big motivator that he had better try the cleansing.  He knew it was a risk, he had been thinking a lot about it, and finally decided to try rather than watch everything destroyed by insane Asha'man.  As Mat would say, time to toss the dice.

 

Yes, there were lots of complaints about the Faile kidnapping dragging on.  However, on rereading (rather than waiting for the next book), it doesn't seem as long.  So, keep reading through KoD.

[Bela]

I understand not liking Rand.  I think he is being somewhat emo.

As for the adventure.  Adventure can only happen so much.  The main plot is in randland.  Not shara, seandar(not sure on the spelling) or even in the blight.  After the characters went through most of randland, you should have expected less exploration.  They are all still traveling around, its just to places we have all seen. 

 

And about the excitement.  KoD has lots of it!

 

Yes cause you would not be emotional if you were destined to die in a few months. If 90% of the people you were dying for hated your guts, didn't care, didn't know or thought you were insane. If you couldn't be near your friends because that would put them in danger. If people were constantly trying to kill you, and constantly trying to parry and twist your plans and words. If you had a huge unhealing scar in your side, with another scar on top of it, as well as metallic tattoos that hurt your arms and  branded herons that burned your palms constantly. Anyone but a robot would be emotional if that happened to them. Are you a robot? Do you take pride in not feeling any emotion?

 

As for adventure, I find the character development just as satisfying and adventurous as any battles or climaxes. Mat's character from the beginning to the end takes you on an astounding ride, I always read through TPoD and first half of WH really fast so I can get to Tuon's first chapter and Mat's following ones. Not that I don't like TPoD and WH but Mat is the greatest character RJ has written, aside from Rand and Thom Merrilin and he doesn't even have very many POVs.

[Kaznen]

Another thing about the AM runaways.

 

Consider that all AM the Soldiers, Dedicated, and Asha'man refer to each other as brothers the way AS refer to each other as sisters.

 

Now, some of your brothers were killed at the Wells, then a few more go crazy (one on his second day), others use to much saidin and die, or they burn themselves out and wish they were dead.  Some of the Am would crack and leave the BT because they are scared.  Now this happens at the WT, then the AS gathers the runaway and puts them back to their studies and they are punished.

 

Now say the runaway AM is found and put back to training.  Then he is sent into action.  In the field he is with 1000 men and they are attackedby overwhelming forces.  He gets scared again and instead of using the OP to protect his comrads he opens a gateway abandons them.  What if it way 10000 he was with?

 

Rand says if they ran away once there is a possiblity they will do so again when it matters.  So he can't trust them in action and it is to dangerous for them to be left to themselves.

[The Desert Pea]

Quick question while we're on the subject...

 

When exactly did Morr go mad? I know it was at the end of Path of Daggers when Rand poisons him for his own good, but wasn't Morr relatively sane just before then when Rand was getting attacked by Dashiva and Co.? Did he really descend into madness that quickly?

[Kaznen]

Did he really descend into madness that quickly?

 

Yes, earlier Rand was told about somebody who went mad on his second day at the BT.  Sometimes there is a warning, a slow decent into madness othertimes you blink and become a raving lunitic.

[drizzt_scimitar]

I think that however boring it may seem, whenever traveling from place to place is replaced by a faster means (like Traveling (note the capital)), the story often suffers. Even though a lot of people find long sequences of just traveling from place to place boring, it serves a very important purpose of adding in buildup and calm before action sequences. Even better, often travel and action coincide, like encountering enemies on the road, a dangerous mountain pass to cross, etc. One reason I think that the books shift in tone and focus around book 5-6 is that that is when everyone learns to Travel. Suddenly, action scenes can no longer involve traveling around, and the calm and buildup before action scenes (the travel) has to be replaced by something else, ie politics, more descriptions, etc.

 

I love WoT, but the later novels are really missing a good quest, since everyone can Travel. Maybe it's because The Hobbit was the first fantasy novel I ever read, but I've always loved quests in fantasy - the long journey filled with hardships with a clear goal at the end. Granted, the traditional fantasy quest doesn't really fit in with the WoT, but I do think the later novels could use more travel-related events to help the pace and buildup, if nothing else. But that's just my opinion.

[Hallow]

I think that however boring it may seem, whenever traveling from place to place is replaced by a faster means (like Traveling (note the capital)), the story often suffers. Even though a lot of people find long sequences of just traveling from place to place boring, it serves a very important purpose of adding in buildup and calm before action sequences. Even better, often travel and action coincide, like encountering enemies on the road, a dangerous mountain pass to cross, etc. One reason I think that the books shift in tone and focus around book 5-6 is that that is when everyone learns to Travel. Suddenly, action scenes can no longer involve traveling around, and the calm and buildup before action scenes (the travel) has to be replaced by something else, ie politics, more descriptions, etc.

 

I love WoT, but the later novels are really missing a good quest, since everyone can Travel. Maybe it's because The Hobbit was the first fantasy novel I ever read, but I've always loved quests in fantasy - the long journey filled with hardships with a clear goal at the end. Granted, the traditional fantasy quest doesn't really fit in with the WoT, but I do think the later novels could use more travel-related events to help the pace and buildup, if nothing else. But that's just my opinion.

 

Have to disagree, I find the long "Going there" then "Going there" Insanely booring in WoT, we still have them in later books, just not in so great numbers. Example is Mat and his entourage. Imagine if we didnt have traveling, we would have to wait for egwene and her army to reach tar valon, for rand to travel Aaaaaall the way to altara only to have to fight semi, etc etc.

 

Thats why I'm glad they can Travel and make gateways.

[Bela]

You guys do realize that Mat's story alone could be fleshed out slightly and span a few books and make this traveling fantasy you dream of.

[Mr Ares]

To me, Fantasy is about adventure.

Fortunately, not all fantasy is written with such a narrow minded definition.

 

The fact that he condones murdering any Asha'man who try and run away

You mean executing traitors? These people are soldiers, they signed on to fight a war. They can't just run off. Such treason deserves death.

 

he kills Fedwin Morr by poisoning him just because he was starting to go a little crazy, but was not raving mad.

The madness was incurable. Morr had the mind of a child, coupled with the destructive capabilities of an Asha'man. Killing Morr was the only reasonable decision.

 

When exactly did Morr go mad?

Sometime during the battle - he was already gone when they returned to Cairhien.

[MikeRiley]

It should be noted that a half-trained male channeler is far more dangerous to himself and the world than one who might never learn, or one who stuck around long enough to get the hang of it. He won't have to go mad to destroy something if he doesn't know what he's doing, and guess what weaves he already learned at the Black Tower? It won't be something as simple as picking up a pot with air. He'll probably explode it instead, meaning to do something entirely different.

 

Rand can't afford to have male channelers running around with deadly weaves learned, so close to the last battle. Having the penalty of death for desertion would prevent others from running away. The end might not justify the means, but the guys who showed up at the Black Tower did know what they were getting into. Soldiers had a tendency to be executed for deserting (do they still do that?).

[Osan`gar]

To me, Fantasy is about adventure.

Fortunately, not all fantasy is written with such a narrow minded definition.

   

you need a balance... steady adventure is as boring as steady politics.

 

The fact that he condones murdering any Asha'man who try and run away

You mean executing traitors? These people are soldiers, they signed on to fight a war. They can't just run off. Such treason deserves death.

 

what should you do with traitors with vast magical powers who can not be incarcerated or controlled without a great expendeture of resource which you can not afford?

 

he kills Fedwin Morr by poisoning him just because he was starting to go a little crazy, but was not raving mad.

 

The madness was incurable. Morr had the mind of a child, coupled with the destructive capabilities of an Asha'man. Killing Morr was the only reasonable decision.

 

and are you going to stand there and wait until after the rabid dog bites you; to deal with him the only way it is safely possible to do so ?

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

i can not beleive that i just aggreed with and supported Mr. Ares... i think im going to be ill... i am sure that this is one of the signs of the apocalypse !!!

 

[MikeRiley]

I always thought Fedwin Morr was mad even before that sudden mind degeneration. Rand considered it at one point as well, the way Morr would smile or laugh like he saw a joke in something. He seemed childish to me from the start.

[CUBAREY]

Quote from: The  Desert Pea on Today at 02:45:28 AM

When exactly did Morr go mad?

Sometime during the battle - he was already gone when they returned to Cairhien.

 

He was sane during the battle when Rand Tells him to protect Min. Then at the end of the battle we learn that he tried to take apart part of the Palace to use the blocks to build a protective fort around Min and only stopped when she gave him children's building blocks to play with.