Jain Farstrider and the Finns(POSSIBLE SPOILERS)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Whatever he thought, at that point he was Ba'alzamon's agent.

 

And the fact that he wanted to go to Tar Valon needn't indicate that he was an Aes Sedai agent.  Where else would he take information that the Dark One is breaking loose?  The Amyrlin Seat is supposed to be the Watcher of the Seals, after all.

[Majsju]

I dont necessarily think he can channel, its just I am very reluctant to dismiss new possibilities just because there isnt foreshadowing. Yes, Wheel of Time containts a hell of a lot of forshadowing, but not EVERYTHING has foreshadowing.

 

Lack of foreshadowing in itself is not a reason to dismiss things, unless it is something that comes completely out of nowhere and changes everything with a few lines.

However, people do not just get abilities, there has to be a reason for it. And what good would come from Farstrider being able to elarn to channel? There is noone around to teach him anything before they reach the TOG, and if he manages to leave, there is no time for him to learn anything before TG. And letting him be a channeler so he can play a role after TG...While RJ did say that he would not solve all plotlines, throwing in a completely new element so close to the end, that would just be  poor writing.

[Osan`gar]

He survived the Blight, on his own as far as we know. I find that a very interesting fact.

 

He didn't survive the Blight on his own.  He got captured and deliberately released by Ba'alzamon.

 

is this supported any where in the story ???

How do we know he isnt a Dreamwalker? How do we know he cant channel?

 

Well, if you're going that way, then we don't know anything, and therefore, we can make up anything.

 

There have been no indications that he is either a Dreamwalker or a channeler.  Or an alien metamorphed into the form of a human.  Or one of the Beejees, genetically altered, mindwiped, and sent through time to sing the 'finns into submission to Thom's accompaniment.

 

-sigh-

 

i have never seen any documentation anywhere in the story that it is possible for men to be dream walkers. this does not rule out the possibility but when you combine the facts that all known dream walkers have been women then perhaps one could theorize that male dream walkers are at best much more rare than female dream walkers... at worst men can not be dream walkers. although it is curious how isam/luc can do what he does...

[MikeRiley]

It's possible that all the male forsaken enter TAR the way Rand does it, but if it's dangerous the way the wise ones say, I can't see that. Of course it's a greater stretch to say they were all dream walkers.. unless that was a talent that wasn't uncommon in the Age of Legends.

 

Edit: I'll add, we're pretty certain Noal and Farstrider are the same person. Ba'alzamon told Rand he used Farstrider, letting him think he got away.

 

An old man came to a stedding in pretty bad shape, once he entered he recovered quickly. He had a message he was taking to Tar Valon, the Dark One was going to blind the Eye of the World and break the Wheel.

 

Later on, Noal said he was used like a fool by.. and cuts off.

 

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.04_j-farstrider.html

This link actually sums it up a lot better than I could.

[Jethro]

However, people do not just get abilities, there has to be a reason for it. And what good would come from Farstrider being able to learn to channel?

 

What good would come from anyone channeling? Everything in these books, good or bad, happens for a reason. If I had told you guys that Moridin was Ishamael before we got any hints you would be saying the same as you are now. Stop acting like we know about everything beforehand

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Maybe Demandred is secretly a double agent, and got himself caught in the Bore just so he could later turn on the Dark One when it would do the most damage.

 

I know there is absolutely zero chance that this is true, but still it would be pretty cool ;D

[CUBAREY]

It's possible that all the male forsaken enter TAR the way Rand does it, but if it's dangerous the way the wise ones say, I can't see that. Of course it's a greater stretch to say they were all dream walkers.. unless that was a talent that wasn't uncommon in the Age of Legends.

 

 

We must take what the wise ones say with a grain of salt. If the Chosen used the the dream world to torture and kill their victims by bodily taking them into the dream world or the Choosen bodily entered it for any other sinister reason then the concept that entereing the Dream World was evil or destroyed part of your soul (thus become one of the Darkone's mingeons) could simply be a twisted understanding of the way the Choosen used it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

is this supported any where in the story   ???

 

Yes.  TEoTW ch 42, and TEoTW ch 51.  Farstrider went into the Blight.  Ba'alzamon caught him, did something to him (we don't know the details) and then "painted [him] like a fool and sent [him] to the Ogier thinking he was free of me."

 

Details in my post Reply #14 in this very thread.

 

Stop acting like we know about everything beforehand

 

Stop acting like we know nothing beforehand.

 

I know there is absolutely zero chance that this is true, but still it would be pretty cool

 

Nuh-uh!  It could happen!  Don't close your mind!!!  ;)

[Builder]

Oh just shush it RAW.

[DemandredFO]

Perrin is a male dreamwalker, sort of and so for that matter is Elyas.  Isam or Luc must have been a male dreamwalker too.  Besides, no one has wanted to have anything to do with men and any talents for 3,000 years

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perrin is a male dreamwalker, sort of and so for that matter is Elyas.

 

Perrin and Elyas are not Dreamwalkers.  They are Wolfbrothers.  This gives them access to Tel'aran'rhiod, but it does not make them Dreamwalkers.

 

Isam or Luc must have been a male dreamwalker too.

 

Maybe ... but probably not.  The mechanism of his entering and exiting Tel'aran'rhiod seems to be different.  For example, he seems to only enter and exit physically.  Jordan said that entering or exiting Tel'aran'rhiod is the mechanism through which he switches identities, and that:

 

Slayer just choses who he will be when he steps into or out of Tel’aran’rhiod.   The stepping in and out is part of the mechanism for his change.  He couldn’t do it in the middle of a street, say, not without the stepping in or out.  Which might be a little noticeable, since he would vanish from sight for a perceptible time.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

 

Slayer would only vanish physically if he has to enter physically.  So, Isam/Luc doesn't seem to be a Dreamwalker either.

 

Plus, the ability is not inborn: its something the Dark One gave him/them when he combined him/them.

 

Besides, no one has wanted to have anything to do with men and any talents for 3,000 years

 

That is an entirely valid point, and it is possible that there would be male Dreamwalkers, but they would be extrememly rare.  The Aiel know that Dreamwalking is not tied to channeling, but there are no male Dreamwalkers among them either.

 

It may be possible to have a male Dreamwalker, but we haven't seen one confirmed.

[Majsju]

 

What good would come from anyone channeling? Everything in these books, good or bad, happens for a reason. If I had told you guys that Moridin was Ishamael before we got any hints you would be saying the same as you are now. Stop acting like we know about everything beforehand

 

Bit of a difference between something that happens in the middle of the story, and something just before the big finale starts to kick off. You simply do not introduce new elements just before the end unless they are absolutely necessary.

 

Btw, I suspected Moridin was Ishy the first time I read about him. That was one of the easiest mysteries to figure out.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Perrin and Elyas are not Dreamwalkers.  They are Wolfbrothers.  This gives them access to Tel'aran'rhiod, but it does not make them Dreamwalkers.

 

But is there really any qualitative difference between what Egwene does and what Perrin and Elyas do?  To me it seems more accurate to say that Wolfbrothers are inherently Dreamwalkers, or that Wolfbrother is a subtype of Dreamwalker.   Or another way of putting would be that all Wolfbrothers are Dreamwalkers but all Dreamwalkers are not Wolfbrothers.  Perhaps in males the two things are invaritablly linked. 

 

While we're on the subject, is there such thing as a Wolfsister?   

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Btw, I suspected Moridin was Ishy the first time I read about him. That was one of the easiest mysteries to figure out.

 

Agreed.  None of the identities of the reincarnated Forsaken were particularly hard to figure out.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

But is there really any qualitative difference between what Egwene does and what Perrin and Elyas do?

 

Yes.  Being a Dreamwalker consists of much more than simply access to Tel'aran'rhiod.  For example, access to and the ability to experience and manipulate other people's regular dreams.

 

To me it seems more accurate to say that Wolfbrothers are inherently Dreamwalkers, or that Wolfbrother is a subtype of Dreamwalker.

 

To me, it seems more accurate to say that they are different things that share one similarity, access to Tel'aran'rhiod.  There are also differences, however.  Wolfbrothers can talk to wolves while awake.  Dreamwalkers can access people's normal dreams.

 

While we're on the subject, is there such thing as a Wolfsister?

 

Yes.  We just haven't seen one yet.

 

Week 13 Question: If a wolfbrother is reborn in another Age, will he be a wolfbrother again? In other words, is being a wolfbrother a trait related to the soul? Can women be wolfbrothers?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Women certainly can be wolfbrothers, though the term would be wolfsisters. A wolfbrother or wolfsister reborn in another age would only be a wolfbrother or wolfsister again if that were possible in that Age. The ability to speak with wolves doesn't exist in every Age. In the "current" Age, it is a fairly new thing, appearing not too long ago. There are tales of it, sometimes just vague stories of people who supposedly "can talk to animals," without necessarily mentioning wolves, but remember that Elyas's ability was taken, at least by some Aes Sedai, as a sign that he was linked to the Shadow.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=183

 

[Osan`gar]

Perrin is a male dreamwalker, sort of and so for that matter is Elyas.  Isam or Luc must have been a male dreamwalker too.  Besides, no one has wanted to have anything to do with men and any talents for 3,000 years

 

in point of fact neither perrin nor elyas are dream walkers. they are wolf brothers and have access to the wolf dream as any other wolf does. it is a completely differnt method of accessing the dream word. and so far as we know there are only three wolf brothers alive at this time. and one of them can not remember being human. unless of course you have knowledge of somebody elses running around with eyes like burnished gold ???

[Gentled Ben]

Doesn't Alviarin note, in one of her POVs, that Be'lal snatched her out of one of her dreams and summoned her? That might indicate that Bel'al had some advanced skill in TAR.

[Jethro]

Bit of a difference between something that happens in the middle of the story, and something just before the big finale starts to kick off. You simply do not introduce new elements just before the end unless they are absolutely necessary.

 

You're really saying that, after RJ just integrated Noal with Mat and Thom who will go and save Moiraine? You dont think RJ has done exactly what you just said? Open your eyes, Maj. RJ has basically just slammed Jain Farstrider in with Mat and Thom, right near the end of the series-Jain Farstrider, a character shrouded in mystery as much as anyone in the series-and you say "you dont do that unless its necessary?" Why has RJ just done exactly what you said "you dont do?" Oh wait, you said the reason in your own post! Because it is necessary. RJ has always stuck to the Wheel of Time being realistic (stuff like not all plots being finished at the end, because thats never how it works) so why would all the interesting things happen at the start? Its as if you think we have to be introduced to every important character, plot line and possible event, all right at the start; its like you think if a story plot isnt begun early on then it cant be begun at all. You  read the books Maj, you have watched Noal step into the story and you know we will learn more about him in the next book. Oh God, we havent had any hints of him being able to channel, that means its an impossinility right? Because there was no foreshadowing? So, we arent going to learn anything about him then. Maybe we will learn about things we have already heard about, but not something new. No way, that would totally mess up with it being near the end, wouldnt it. So that must mean we will see absolutely nothing new in AMoL, since its only stuff that has had foreshadowing. Whats the point reading it?

[CUBAREY]

You're really saying that, after RJ just integrated Noal with Mat and Thom who will go and save Moiraine? You dont think RJ has done exactly what you just said? Open your eyes, Maj. RJ has basically just slammed Jain Farstrider in with Mat and Thom, right near the end of the series-Jain Farstrider, a character shrouded in mystery as much as anyone in the series-and you say "you dont do that unless its necessary?" Why has RJ just done exactly what you said "you dont do?"

 

You misconstrue a new element (a Known character revealed to have an unknown power) and using an existing Character to round out a plot line. Moreover, if our suspicions of Noal are correct it would be both natural for Jain Farstridder to join the adventure and get him to be with Mat and Morraine later on where his possible ties to the Darkside might be revealed in close proximity to main characters including possibly Rand.

[Jethro]

You're really saying that, after RJ just integrated Noal with Mat and Thom who will go and save Moiraine? You dont think RJ has done exactly what you just said? Open your eyes, Maj. RJ has basically just slammed Jain Farstrider in with Mat and Thom, right near the end of the series-Jain Farstrider, a character shrouded in mystery as much as anyone in the series-and you say "you dont do that unless its necessary?" Why has RJ just done exactly what you said "you dont do?"

 

You misconstrue a new element (a Known character revealed to have an unknown power) and using an existing Character to round out a plot line. Moreover, if our suspicions of Noal are correct it would be both natural for Jain Farstridder to join the adventure and get him to be with Mat and Morraine later on where his possible ties to the Darkside might be revealed in close proximity to main characters including possibly Rand.

 

And Jain being a channeler is completely out of the question, JUST because we havent seen any evidence of it in the five minutes hes been with Mat? Thats my point. The fact that Jain might be clever enough to keep something like that quiet never occurred to anyone here then. So Jain is just a normal Malkieri then, with nothing new or interesting to find out about him because we havent had any signs beforehand? I really really would like to hear peoples thoughts on why Ishamael decided he could be used then, if there is nothing new to learn about him. And Id like to hear what people think about Thoms mention of the story of how Susa tamed Jain Farstrider. I mean, Ishamael manipulated Ta'veren, used male channelers, and allsorts of stuff, but Jain??? No, hes just a guy, and theres nothing else to him. Nothing, because he couldnt possibly be someone with secrets.

 

I honestly cant believe anyone would read a series like Wheel of Time and be absolutely sure that we have had hints of everything about the last book. Yes, we have some hints, but not about everything! RJ has shrouded many characters in mystery-Verin wears suspicious like a suit of armor, and Jain is as much a point of intrigue having been used by Ishamael-so why people would be so close-minded about something like this I dont know. AMoL has room-and possible leads-to more plot twists than I care to list. Verin and her objectives, why Aridhol became the way it did (not how, but WHY), Jain and why he was used by Ishamael to name but a few, all very interesting aspects that could easily bring about some sort of plot twist. And if they do-and I think very strongly that the if here is very small-then you guys are guna be knocked on your arses, just because we didnt anticipate it.

 

Wheel of Time, containing something that couldnt be predicted? Whats the world coming to?

[cloglord]

Uhm, I'd like to point out that Jain Farstrider was one of the very first characters introduced.  In like the second chapter, Rand beds down next to fire and reads "the Adventures of Jain Farstrider," before he gets busted in on by trollocs.  Thom mentions him during his recitation of stories, ala "How Susa taimed Jain Farstrider."  Ishy talks about screwing with him in dreamland sequences, and Loial backs it up with his story of a crazy old man who comes wandering into the stedding babbling about the eye of the world.  Algemar cites the young Jain Farstrider in his recitation of the fate of Malkier.  The idea that Jain/Noal is a recent introduction is silly on the face of it.

 

The actual person of Noal seems to appear in one of the middle books, as a strangely out of place old dude amongst Graendal's pretties, and then again for a whole book during the Ebou Dar sequence.  Jain is not a new character that shows up with unexpected powers in the last book.  Jain/Noal is a very well established character that we only just get to meet up close and personal in the last few books.

 

I don't seems to remember any of the stories of Jain Farstrider mention his ability to dream walk or channel or fortell or sniff out evildoers or talk to wolves or see pieces of the pattern or be a blademaster.  There's lots of stories about him, and absolutely no evidence that he is any thing other than a famous adventurer, hero, and possible accidental agent of the shadow.

[Jethro]

And yet all this time we have "heard about" him obviously we wouldnt have learnt any secrets about him would we? Now that hes part of the group-which is what I meant all along I just didnt think I needed to spell that out-then we can learn about him properly cant we? You're telling me you've never wondered how he managed to survive throughout all this traveling, where nobody else as far as we know has? And the stories?!?! The stories are never accurate and even if they were we havent heard any of the stories, only the titles, and those bits are no way near enough for us to know what Jain is capable of.

 

Anyway, its obvious everyone is against the idea of something being revealed that hasnt been dangled in front of their eyes for 11 books so I will leave it at that. We disagree

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I don't seems to remember any of the stories of Jain Farstrider mention his ability to dream walk or channel or fortell or sniff out evildoers or talk to wolves or see pieces of the pattern or be a blademaster.  There's lots of stories about him, and absolutely no evidence that he is any thing other than a famous adventurer, hero, and possible accidental agent of the shadow.

 

While I agree that Jain probably does not possess any of the above powers, his failure to mention them in his book does not rule out the possibility.  Considering how male channelers are treated in the Third Age, if he were able the channel do you really think he would write about it in his book? That would be like putting out a big sign that reads in big bold letters "COME GENTEL ME PLEASE."   And while he was headed to Tar Valon to report the DO's intentions toward the EotW, under normal circumstances he, like most Randlanders, probably wanted to avoid AS attention as much a possible, and admitting to most of these powers would certainly bring such attention.  The only two among these powers that I think he would readily admit to would be sniffer or blademaster since these things are quite known and seem quite acceptable in Randland.  I will add that Wolfbrother can be ruled out as Mat or Thom certainly would have made note of his yellow eyes if he had them.

 

The interesting thing about "The Travels of Jain Farstrider" is that while it is quite well known in Randland, we are privy to almost none of it.  Make me wonder if perhaps this was going to be one of RJ's outrigger novels.  

[MikeRiley]

Ishamael did something to Farstrider. I don't believe he's served the Shadow's purpose in full yet. What exactly was he doing in Ebou Dar? Even he didn't seem to know, but he was still drawn to the darkfriends. I think any special power of Farstrider's will come in the form of whatever Ishamael did to him that we still have yet to see play out. It's not so much introducing a new talent so late as it is finishing his plot and clearing up a mystery.

 

I think before all is done Farstrider will be "turned on" you could say, and do what Ishamael wanted him to, and he'll end up either doing it or breaking free. Could even happen in the ToG.

[Jethro]

Thats my thought, that Jains story will make itself clear in the Tower of Ghenji. Iron, music, and fire. Mat, Thom, and Jain.