The Gathering Storm Finished

[Treblkickd]

Sorry, but it's you who's misrepresenting what RJ said. That he wanted to finish WoT in  no more than one book was his literal intent. The part about the wheeled cart was a hyperbole that he used to make his literal intent clear.

 

Even if you could you're misrepresenting what Harriet thinks RJ would have done.

 

"Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance."

 

[They] both have said they don't think [Jordan] could have [written it all in one book], or would have [written it all in one book], given the chance.

 

Meaning, they think he would have understood the impossibilities present on the side of the Tor in convincing the printers and bookstores to print and carry, respectively, a book that was upwards of 800k words.

 

Sorry, but it seems to me that you are misrepresenting what Brandon said again.

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

 

Does anybody here actually believe that "it" in the second sentence stands for anything other than "splitting the book"?

 

 

I don't have much interest in getting into the full-on arguments going down around here (and avoiding that stuff is easy seeing as how I read the forum maybe twice a month), but I find that quote from Sanderson to pretty obviously refer to RJ not being able/willing to force AMOL into a single volume if he were the one writing it.  The driving force behind the decision seems to be length, and the state of the printed media market today, and the clear (to me) implication is that these circumstances allow for one reasonable choice (and that RJ as a reasonable man and would accede to the logic of that decision).  As per the latest update, this first part of AMOL will be 300k, which would make it the 6th longest book published to date (and only 5k or 1.67% shorter than Eye of the World).  My guess is that this decision has probably been made at least a half dozen times throughout the writing of the WOT, but was never so publically discussed (I mean RJ originally thought he was writing a trilogy, and then he thought it'd be six books, and frankly I'm shocked he ever managed to get the series at least half way done the way it was ballooning up on him).

[Elgee]

Does anybody here actually believe that "it" in the second sentence stands for anything other than "splitting the book"?

 

Obviously me.

 

I knew that already.  :) Now I'm looking forward to see if there are many other people here who think that what Brandon actually meant is "If RJ were given the chance to keep AMoL one book he wouldn't have done it".

 

 

*Waves hand* ME TOO  :P

 

Reason:

RJ said it was going to be only 3 books ... oops

RJ said it was going to be only 6 books ... oops

RJ said it was going to be only 12 books ... follow the pattern?

 

Besides, as has been said here now SEVERAL times, RJ knew he was terminally ill. He probably hoped to finish the SERIES himself, but knew he wasn't up to writing more than one BOOK.

 

I wonder ... would it be possible for someone to put up some kind of graphic here to show just how big that one book would be?

 

I for one don't think I could even hold the thing up.

[Roxinos]

I wonder ... would it be possible for someone to put up some kind of graphic here to show just how big that one book would be?

 

Sure.... I'll try.

 

The Fires of Heaven is 354,109 it is the third largest book in the series. Assuming the completed aMoL not split into three novels were 800,000 words, that's 2.259 times larger than The Fires of Heaven.

 

I'm going to hold my paperback copy of The Fires of Heaven against my monitor to get a rough approximation of size.

 

------------------------------

 

That's The Fires of Heaven.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That's aMoL at 800,000 words. Paperback.

[Elgee]

:o

 

*slaps everyone who wants her to hold THAT while trying to read it!*  >:(

 

Btw, Roxinos ... love the simplicity of your graphic  ;D

[Roxinos]

*grin* I aim to please.

 

Well, most of the time I aim to annoy the hell out of as many people as possible, but occasionally I like to please people.

[Elgee]

Keeps them off balance, heh? Daddy O would be so proud of you  ;)

 

As a matter of interest: do you mean hard cover or paper back? My first 6 are paper back, the rest hard cover. Fires of Heaven looks about the same size as 1,2 & 3; all the rest are much bigger. My book 6 (Lord of Chaos) is the biggest one - I hate that danged thing! It gives me corpal tunnel syndrome  >:(

[Roxinos]

I mean paperback. As I said, The Fires of Heaven is the third largest book in terms of words (so in terms of size). While the others may look longer, only Lord of Chaos from 6 to 11 is longer than The Fires of Heaven.

 

So...just let that factor into your imagination.

[Elgee]

I do have such a vivid imagination ...  ;D

 

But the reason I asked was because I'm interested in purely practical terms, ie the physical size of it. They'd have to make the binding pretty sturdy to keep it all together, which would just add to the problem.

[Charlz Guybon]

I do have such a vivid imagination ...  ;D

 

But the reason I asked was because I'm interested in purely practical terms, ie the physical size of it. They'd have to make the binding pretty sturdy to keep it all together, which would just add to the problem.

Tor can't even bind a paperback the size of Eye of the World correctly, I went through two of that and had several of the others start falling apart before I just replaced everything with hardcovers.

[Elgee]

Cant bind, can't get decent cover artists ... good thing they spend some money on authors  ::)

 

My one hardcover has come to pieces - soon as I win the lotto, I'm replacing it.

[Casco]

If you want to follow Brandons work with TGS, you can read about them here http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson Its pretty cool to get fast uppdates on the progression :D

 

PS

Twadget is Brandon :)

[Charlz Guybon]

If you want to follow Brandons work with TGS, you can read about them here http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson Its pretty cool to get fast uppdates on the progression :D

 

PS

Twadget is Brandon :)

21 different viewpoints! :o

 

Isn't that a lot for a WOT book, or is it just me?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, KoD has 26 POVS from, in order:

 

Galad

Ituralde

Suroth

Pevara

Aliviarin

Galina

Egwene

Siuan

Beonin

Elaida

Aran'gar

Perrin

Faile

Mat

Elayne

Arymilla

Rand

Loial

Nynaeve

Weilin Aldragoran

Harine

Romanda

Tarna

Tuon

Birgitte, and

Furyk Karede

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Really? Wow, it definitely didn't feel like that many.

[Shard]

Well the prologue did have three or four all by it's self.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Additionally, in other books, we've had POVs from at least the following people who are still around:

 

Moridin

Cyndane

Graendal

Demandred

Moghedien

Semirhage

Moiraine

Thom

Lan

Verin

Min

Cadsuane

Dain Bornhald

Gawyn

Elza Penfell

Barmellin

Noal/Jain Charin

Ethenielle

Aviendha

the Gholam

Chulein

Sevanna

Sheriam

Assid Bakuun

Abaldar Yuran

Davram Bashere

Seaine

Tovene

Daved Hanlon

Elenia Sarand

Semi-omniscient

 

I'm sure I've missed a couple, and there are others from characters who are now dead, of course

 

In short, 21 POVs isn't terribly surprising.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

The simple fact of money is not something you can deny. Even your arguements about how much more a larger book would cost means NOTHING. I will have to buy 3 books instead of the one that I should have to. Rj did say many times that AMOL would be a single volume. Waiting is easy, we have waited for 4+ years and to see the story done as it should be makes waiting worth it. This ploy for more money by TOR makes me want to sell every WOT thing I own and forget about the series altogether. I in no way want to, and I will more than likely buy each book but TOR will get nothing more from me. It is simply sickening that a book as important as this one will be chopped up for the sake of TORs pocketbook. As it has been said only a fool bookstore would refuse to carry what will without a doubt be a best seller, TOR has to know that and understands that this is the time to squeeze as much from WOT as possible.

[Roxinos]

The simple fact of money is not something you can deny.

 

Never said that it wasn't the best financial decision for the bookstores and the publishers. However, it's a moot point as there are many other things that point to it being a decision that isn't purely financial. For example, Brandon saying on behalf of Harriet and Tom that it isn't purely financial.

[Shard]

Buying one $25 book a year is not going to break my wallet and I'm unemployed right now.

[Jonn]

I really do get the feeling that Brandon Sanderson does have some integrity, so when he explains that the decision isn't purely financial, I'll take what he says in such a way that at least he means it.

 

As for TOR, I think that people who are upset with them are somewhat justified to feel that way. I mean, really am not sure who was the person who set up the deadline for this November anyway.

 

Someone who knows please enlighten me. All I know is that one day I was reading Sanderson's blog about how he intends to work on the book as if it were one piece, and that it will be long indeed, the next day we get this whole dramatic countdown thing for November and I remember thinking to myself...How are they going to pull THAT off?

 

So when Sanderson came out with his statement finally enlightening us of what has been going on, I feel hard done by because of how TOR has handled the situation. Sure they are getting pressure from the industry to limit the pages and whatnot, but this is something you should have assessed even before you tapped Sanderson to do the job. No? How could you as the head of publishing company not know something as basic as how long the book will be, months into the plotting by the author? I find that bizarre, and it looks like someone missed the boat here and panicked after they were the ones to project that November deadline.

If you think about it, Sanderson has come in and basically taken some of the heat off and made TOR not look so foolish for posting a deadline prior to the actual COMPLETION OF THE BOOK!

 

Very silly stuff here, and people have a right to be annoyed if not outright angry about the situation.

 

Still, personally, I am glad to have the book be on its way to completion, this epic tale be on its way to ending, and RJ's vision finally reaching fruition, if not exactly as he would have first envisioned it.

[Roxinos]

Sure they are getting pressure from the industry to limit the pages and whatnot, but this is something you should have assessed even before you tapped Sanderson to do the job. No?

 

No. They had no clue how long "A Memory of Light" was going to be. They had the idea of an average book length, 250k words. At most, they figured it would be about 400k. If you read Brandon's blog post about the decision for splitting the book, you see that Tom was pretty damned surprised at how long Brandon thought the book was going to be.

 

But I generally agree with your point.

[Jonn]

Sure they are getting pressure from the industry to limit the pages and whatnot, but this is something you should have assessed even before you tapped Sanderson to do the job. No?

 

No. They had no clue how long "A Memory of Light" was going to be. They had the idea of an average book length, 250k words. At most, they figured it would be about 400k. If you read Brandon's blog post about the decision for splitting the book, you see that Tom was pretty damned surprised at how long Brandon thought the book was going to be.

 

But I generally agree with your point.

 

Thank you, but you also see what I mean...If you were so surprised by Sanderson's estimate, the question begging to be asked is:

 

Why didn't you ask him before you had the press event?

 

When I read that account by Sanderson, I was pretty blown away. Sanderson has an excuse, as he was totally focused at the time on the actual writing, but still, he was blogging pretty continuously about his progress and projections. I mean, even then, Tom Doherty should have been basing his decisions on actual dialogue from Sanderson, rather than a projected figure on his blog. The scenario as it was described leads one to believe that they hadn't actually had that conversation at that point. Again, I find that bizarre, and to still insist on a predetermined deadline prior to the completion of even a first draft full novel, and to announce it, building that anticipation amongst the readers...

 

That's almost unforgivable.

 

If it weren't for the fond feelings fans have for Harriet and the likable manner Sanderson has been conducting himself, there would be a lot more outrage bordering on outright fiasco.

 

Don't misunderstand me though. I understand the situation as it stands now and I'm happy enough with the decision as it has been explained for me by Sanderson, but honestly, he shouldn't have had to have done that.

 

And really, it does wholly change the dynamic of the whole concept of A Memory of Light being a single work. When Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings, he finished the book and then the publishers decided to split up a complete novel into three. It was a book that was never meant to be split from the author's conception, and that was how it was written.

 

We have a situation here now where the original author, Robert Jordan, intended to write it as a single volume, his successor intended and began writing it in like manner and mid conception the Publisher has INTERFERED with that process and basically forced Sanderson to split the novel in order to reach a mocked up deadline this year. And yes this pleases those who want to get their fix as soon as possible (I will not deny that this includes me to a greater degree as well), but it has pretty much turned out as I feared it would when talk of the split began.

 

Business has tainted how this book was supposed to be written. I'm not saying that what will be given to us over the next few years will be bad. I'm saying that in essence, this is true and it has happened.

 

But hey, what is life without compromise? Happy I suspect, if maybe short.

[Mr Ares]

So the split was contrary not not only to the wish RJ expressed himself many times. It was also contrary to what Harriet thinks RJ would have done if he were alive.

You completely misrepresented that quote.

No, I didn't.

 

RJ himself expressed that we would get to see the end of the Wheel of Time in one book, even if it had to be taken home from the store in a wheeled cart. That's hyperbole, you can't take hyperbole as literal intent.

Even accounting for hyperbole, his intent was clear - one book, no matter how big. He certainly convinced his publishers of that, as well as his fans.

 

"Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance."

 

[They] both have said they don't think [Jordan] could have [written it all in one book], or would have [written it all in one book], given the chance.

 

Meaning, they think he would have understood the impossibilities present on the side of the Tor in convincing the printers and bookstores to print and carry, respectively, a book that was upwards of 800k words.

Context helps. "But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)" So, RJ convinced at least Brandon Sanderson of his intention to publish in one more book, even if you can't see it. What you are claiming is that RJ, even given the opportunity to fulfill the promises he made to publishers and fans for one more book, he still wouldn't do it. He couldn't bring himself to do it. That's absurd. It clearly does not mean what you think it means. They don't think he could have split it, or would have split it given the chance. That is the only explanation that makes sense.

 

Tor could not have produced a book this year if they had convinced the printers and bookstores to print and carry, respectively, the full 800k+ words. Tor had promised that we would get a book this year. Tor wants to keep its promise to the readers.

To keep one promise, another is broken. Tor tells people they will have a book in 09, but the book isn't finished yet. RJ promised publishers and fans one more book, and it is split.

 

If Tor had broken its promise, it would have had a hell of a lot of problems convincing the printers and bookstores to print and carry, respectively, the 800k+ words.

Books missing deadlines is hardly unheard of (see Martin, George R.R.). If the book isn't written, they cannot publish it, they can't print it, they can't sell it. Printers and bookstores are, I'm sure, well aware of these facts.

If Tor could have convinced them to do what must be done to get the books out to the masses, it would have been several years from now.

Yes, when it's written. Why is waiting for a book to be written before you publish it suddenly a problem? It is not standard in the industry to try and publish books authors haven't yet written.

Many have already expressed their willingness to wait, but I doubt that the vast majority of readers would express the same willingness to wait an indeterminate amount of time for a series that is going on 20 years now to finish.

And you would be wrong. See Martin, George R.R., or Auel, Jean M. She left it a decade between volumes of her series. It was still a bestseller when it was eventually published.

However, assuming that Tor ignored that aspect of things, the price of the single book would no doubt far exceed the price of an average book.

But will it exceed the price of three average books?

 

Now, while you may have been okay with all of those things that Tor would have had to do, and all of the necessary backlashes to Tor's hypothetical decision, do you really believe that most people would be?

Yes.

If you wish to believe that Harriet had no say in it, and that it was just Tom, then trust that Tom was a close friend of Jordan and that he would want to honor his memory as much as Harriet.

By doing something he admits RJ wouldn't and couldn't. By ignoring the promises RJ made.

 

The timeframe will be about the same in my mind for a final, completed product. However, one way we receive something early. The other we must wait and have none of our ire assuaged.

The ire that needs assuaging was roused in a large part by this decision to split it in three.

 

As Brandon said in his blog, bookstores already have a distaste for the fantasy lot because of the sheer amount of shelf space typically required for books, with a relatively small number of readers in proportion to the shelf space.

One thing he didn't mention is that apparently those long books tend to do comparatively well. Hence Orbit releasing the Long Price quartet in two volumes, or Tor apparently telling Daniel Abraham to write longer books.

 

I'm sure they would rather not waste the limited shelf space they have on something that isn't guaranteed to sell.

This is guaranteed to sell.

 

(I mean RJ originally thought he was writing a trilogy' date=' and then he thought it'd be six books, and frankly I'm shocked he ever managed to get the series at least half way done the way it was ballooning up on him).[/quote']Quotes or it didn't happen.

 

I find that quote from Sanderson to pretty obviously refer to RJ not being able/willing to force AMOL into a single volume if he were the one writing it.

Read it again. You're wrong.

 

RJ said it was going to be only 3 books ... oops

RJ said it was going to be only 6 books ... oops

Quotes or it didn't happen.

 

Besides, as has been said here now SEVERAL times, RJ knew he was terminally ill. He probably hoped to finish the SERIES himself, but knew he wasn't up to writing more than one BOOK.

Changes nothing. He has to write two books or he has to write one book as long as two books. Or one as long as three. Still just as much to write. So this doesn't make any more sense for being said repeatedly.

 

I wonder ... would it be possible for someone to put up some kind of graphic here to show just how big that one book would be?

Sure.... I'll try.

 

The Fires of Heaven is 354,109 it is the third largest book in the series. Assuming the completed aMoL not split into three novels were 800,000 words, that's 2.259 times larger than The Fires of Heaven.

 

I'm going to hold my paperback copy of The Fires of Heaven against my monitor to get a rough approximation of size.

 

------------------------------

 

That's The Fires of Heaven.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That's aMoL at 800,000 words. Paperback.

I compared that to my copy of FoH. The difference was...dramatic. In fact, it was wider than another book of mine, The Naked God, which is about 470,000 words, paperback. My copy of FoH is about 3.8cm or 1.5 inches thick. Translating that to an 800,000 word AMoL is 8.75 cm or about 3.5 inches, by my rough reckoning. Big, but on my screen 8.5 cm is your graphic for FoH, and 19.5 is AMoL. Appearances can be deceptive.

Fires of Heaven graphic:

----------------

The Naked God graphic:

-----------------------

A Memory of Light graphic:

-----------------------------------

Difference doesn't seem quite so big.

 

The Fires of Heaven is the third largest book in terms of words (so in terms of size).

Lord of Chaos is second longest in words but longest in pages.

[Roxinos]

From Brandon's blog.

 

I wrote all summer, and the next point of interest comes at Worldcon. Tom and I were on a panel together, talking about AMoL. I noted that (by that point) I had around 250k written. He said something like "Ah, so you're almost done!" I looked chagrined and said "Actually, I feel that I'm only about 1/3 of the way there, Tom." He blinked, shocked, and then laughed a full bellied laugh. "It's happening again!" he exclaimed. "Jim sold me one book that somehow became three, and now it's happening again!"

 

They were aware that it was going to be longer than expected sometime last year. I believe they'd already said they were going to have something released by the end of this year, though. Publishers are crazy. Perhaps they shouldn't have said it. Perhaps they shouldn't have stuck to it too crazily. But *shrug* can't blame 'em.

 

And really, it does wholly change the dynamic of the whole concept of A Memory of Light being a single work. When Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings, he finished the book and then the publishers decided to split up a complete novel into three. It was a book that was never meant to be split from the author's conception, and that was how it was written.

 

Except now aMoL is not being written as one book. It is being written as three volumes.

 

Business has tainted how this book was supposed to be written.

 

As Brandon said concerning Harriet and Tom's decision: neither of them believe that Jordan could have done it all in one book, or that he would have done it all in one book. Harriet, being Jordan's wife and closest friend, is in a unique position to know what he would have done. I think I believe her when she says that even if Jordan had lived, aMoL would have ended up as three volumes anyway.

 

I compared that to my copy of FoH. The difference was...dramatic.

 

I don't care about anything else you said, but this section basically called me a liar.

 

 

Two and a half inches. Even if you were to compress that down as far as possible, you can only get it down to 2 and one quarters inches.

 

Multiply 2.25 by 2.259 and you get 5.08275 inches.

 

Lord of Chaos is second longest in words but longest in pages.

 

Yes, and The Fires of Heaven is still the third longest in terms of both pages and words.

[Treblkickd]

So the split was contrary not not only to the wish RJ expressed himself many times. It was also contrary to what Harriet thinks RJ would have done if he were alive.

You completely misrepresented that quote.

No, I didn't.

 

RJ himself expressed that we would get to see the end of the Wheel of Time in one book, even if it had to be taken home from the store in a wheeled cart. That's hyperbole, you can't take hyperbole as literal intent.

Even accounting for hyperbole, his intent was clear - one book, no matter how big. He certainly convinced his publishers of that, as well as his fans.

 

"Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance."

 

[They] both have said they don't think [Jordan] could have [written it all in one book], or would have [written it all in one book], given the chance.

 

Meaning, they think he would have understood the impossibilities present on the side of the Tor in convincing the printers and bookstores to print and carry, respectively, a book that was upwards of 800k words.

Context helps. "But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)" So, RJ convinced at least Brandon Sanderson of his intention to publish in one more book, even if you can't see it. What you are claiming is that RJ, even given the opportunity to fulfill the promises he made to publishers and fans for one more book, he still wouldn't do it. He couldn't bring himself to do it. That's absurd. It clearly does not mean what you think it means. They don't think he could have split it, or would have split it given the chance. That is the only explanation that makes sense.

 

In context all you have is, "But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)".  I read that as BS presenting one grounds for objection to the splitting (ie. RJ said he wanted one book), and then offering a parenthetical qualification to that objection.  I can step back and see how one would read the lines as you are suggesting, but I still disagree.  Regardless, this is something that can actually be cleared up pretty trivially by asking BS what he meant.  I don't reckon anyone wants to email him?

 

(I mean RJ originally thought he was writing a trilogy' date=' and then he thought it'd be six books, and frankly I'm shocked he ever managed to get the series at least half way done the way it was ballooning up on him).[/quote']

Quotes or it didn't happen.

 

First of all, provided quotes on a message board have no impact on the truth or untruth of a statement - that's just a silly thing to say.

 

Secondly, I was slightly mixed up, but the point easily stands.  From Tom Doherty himself in the BS blog post on this whole issue: Tom Doherty says "It's happening again!  Jim sold me one book that somehow became three, and now it's happening again!".  Now after reading a tad more I think that Tom Doherty is probably referring to the Fallon books here, not WOT.  But which books don't matter - the point stands that RJ is bad at guessing how many books it will take him to write something.

 

This fact *is* further reflected in his work on WOT, which he *did* originally intend to be six books (reference: http://peterahlstrom.blogspot.com/2008/08/rolling-up-wheel-of-time-panel.html - 'In 1984, Jim came to Tom and said, “I’ve got a great idea for an epic fantasy, and it’s going to be 6 books.” Tom says that book one was 5 years late [it came out in 1989].'  And EoTW was published in 1989, so clearly the WoT is what's being referred to there.)

 

So we know that RJ consistently underestimated the number of books he would need to finish his stories.  It looks like it happened again, and AMOL wasn't ever going to happen in a single volume.