has egwene done the nasty?

[Serenla]

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying that rape is a horrendous act that drastically alters the victims life.  And that calling what Tylin did to Mat rape, makes it seem less so. 

 

So you're saying if a guy goes out and forces his way with a little girl, it's not rape if she wasn't traumatized by it? Rape is rape. If they don't have a choice in the matter and don't want to do it, there's no two ways about it, no matter the outcome, it's rape.

 

You can equate Mat and Tylin's thing whatever you choose to call it with the rape of a little girl?  That's disturbing to me and is the entire reason I entered this debate in the first place.  The two are in NO way equal.

 

And on what planet would a rape victim boy or girl, grown man or woman NOT be traumatized by having been raped?  I'd rather be murdered or tortured or slowly starved to death myself. 

 

The whole point that I am trying (not very effectively it seems) to make is that rape is traumatizing.  Mat's complaint after the event is:

"It isn't natural," he burst out, yanking the pipestem from between his teeth.  "I'm the one who's supposed to do the chasing!"

 

A Crown of Swords Chapter 29 Festival of the Birds paragraph 18

Not eww I didn't want to do it with you, not get away from me, not even leaning off the bed to throw up (which would be my reaction), BUT "he was supposed to do the chasing".  He was mad because it wasn't his idea NOT because it happened.

[MikeRiley]

 

You can equate Mat and Tylin's thing whatever you choose to call it with the rape of a little girl?  That's disturbing to me and is the entire reason I entered this debate in the first place.  The two are in NO way equal.

 

Right, because since he didn't treat it like the little girl would it wasn't rape. How are the two not the same? Both are cases of rape. Like I said, rape is rape. Some might be more severe, but that doesn't change what it is. If I steal $50 from your purse and the next poster steals your car, we are both guilty of theft.

 

And on what planet would a rape victim boy or girl, grown man or woman NOT be traumatized by having been raped?  I'd rather be murdered or tortured or slowly starved to death myself. 

 

Everybody responds differently. There's no blanket response for each situation. When somebody is held hostage they don't all sit down and soil themselves from fright. Some do, some don't.

 

The whole point that I am trying (not very effectively it seems) to make is that rape is traumatizing.  Mat's complaint after the event is:

"It isn't natural," he burst out, yanking the pipestem from between his teeth.  "I'm the one who's supposed to do the chasing!"

 

A Crown of Swords Chapter 29 Festival of the Birds paragraph 18

Not eww I didn't want to do it with you, not get away from me, not even leaning off the bed to throw up (which would be my reaction), BUT "he was supposed to do the chasing".  He was mad because it wasn't his idea NOT because it happened.

 

No, rape doesn't have to be traumatizing to be considered rape. If it is against his will and he doesn't want it, but he knows it's not harming him, he might not care so much after the fact, but that does not change that it was still rape. For a guy who lays around with girls as much as Mat's let on to do, he could probably shrug that off the day it happened if nobody knew. His whole problem was that people did know. He doesn't need to sit down and cry for it to be a crime.

[Serenla]

 

You can equate Mat and Tylin's thing whatever you choose to call it with the rape of a little girl?  That's disturbing to me and is the entire reason I entered this debate in the first place.  The two are in NO way equal.

 

Right, because since he didn't treat it like the little girl would it wasn't rape. How are the two not the same? Both are cases of rape. Like I said, rape is rape. Some might be more severe, but that doesn't change what it is. If I steal $50 from your purse and the next poster steals your car, we are both guilty of theft.

The fifty dollar crime is a misdemeanor and grand theft auto is a felony.  So the two would in fact be guilty of two different crimes.

 

Everybody responds differently. There's no blanket response for each situation. When somebody is held hostage they don't all sit down and soil themselves from fright. Some do, some don't.

Response indicates outward behavior, not the feelings connected to them.  Threat of impending death scares everyone (witout mental illness) and having your body violated makes everyone feel violated.

No, rape doesn't have to be traumatizing to be considered rape. If it is against his will and he doesn't want it, but he knows it's not harming him, he might not care so much after the fact, but that does not change that it was still rape. For a guy who lays around with girls as much as Mat's let on to do, he could probably shrug that off the day it happened if nobody knew. His whole problem was that people did know. He doesn't need to sit down and cry for it to be a crime.

I would be traumatized if I were raped.  The people I know that have been raped were traumatized.  Websites for rape victims say that it is traumatizing to everyone.  Every movie and book that I have ever come in contact with that dealt with rape indicated trauma.  There is no reason in this world that I will ever believe that it is possible to be raped and "shrug it off".  Mat's promiscuity would not make him immune to this trauma.  It is one thing to choose to do a thing and an entirely different to have that choice taken from you. 

[MikeRiley]

Every movie and book that I have ever come in contact with that dealt with rape indicated trauma. 

 

Except the Wheel of Time. You're saying it has to be traumatizing in order to be rape simply because there's no evidence that rape victims might not be traumatized by it. This doesn't matter because in the books, Mat isn't traumatized, but is raped. The same sequence of events happens, the only difference between your real life examples and the book's is that in the book, Mat can shrug it off.

 

Grand theft auto is still theft. What Tylin did to Mat was still rape.

 

By the way, a lot of people don't fear their deaths and it isn't a mental illness.

[Serenla]

RJ wrote the people in this book like people in real life, all of them having understandable reactions.  In my opinion Mat would not be the exception.  Other than the incidence in question can you give an example of a rape that was not traumatizing to the victim?  (Movies and so on that are supposed to be unbelievable and stupid for laughs don't count.)

 

She did not rape him, she forcefully seduced him.  He could have left but didn't.

 

Survival instinct is the stongest instinct there is, to lack it is not a sign of a healthy mind. 

[Thor]

if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it.

[vainebekonnes]

if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it.

 

Umm, Biology has pretty much shown that to be BS, especially for a YOUNG man.  Sorry.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry Serenla--Mat makes clear that the situation makes him deeply uncomfortable. We see him directly try to avoid it. We see her use her authority to stop him, we see her ignore his attempts to stop it.

 

She forced a sexual encounter that he was not willing for. You claim that he never said no, that he could have walked away--how--to walk away would be to abandon his promise to Rand to protect the girls, not to mention his agreement with the girls themselves. How precisely was he to pack up and leave. And you say he did not say no--do you realise the presure on men to have sex? Was he to say no and be emasculated--to say no directly would be to admit that she was the predator and he was the prey, his male-pride stopped that. Which is not to say he didn't assert his disdain for the situation. He tried to stop it--several times--and she circumvented him without batting an eyelash. I'm not sure what's worse--the use of the knife, or the use of her position as queen.

 

if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it.

 

As has been stated before, there are proven cases in which women have orgasmed during rape, and cases of men ejaculating during forced sodomy. Physical response to sexual stimuli does not equate permission. I mean that very concept is as disgusting as it is adolescent--are you so desperate for sex that you cannot understand the distinction between arousal and decision. He didn't want to. She ignored him. End of game.

 

Its the same as with a boss harassing a secratary--to say no, to leave, involves extra risks. Losing jobs and so forth. Thats why sexual harassment laws exist.

 

What most disturbed me was Elayne's giggling. Had Tylin come to her and said the reverse she would have been furious--she was just on the plain assumption. Yet Mat says it and she giggles. That is truly disgusting.

 

You completely avoided my earlier comment by the way, the one that were this to occur with a king and a woman we'd be up in arms.

[Orange Fescue]

if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it.

Completely untrue. There have been many times when my body has responded to stimuli--even just to the presence of another person close by--when I quite adamantly did not want it to so so. And, it's not just a teenager thing. I'm approaching 40 and it happened last month.

 

As to whether Tylin raped Mat, I'm not sure. The situation is certainly fishy but I think he was scandalized rather than ravished. That is, I don't think Mat's objection was to having a sexual relationship with Tylin. I think he had an objection to the role reversal, to being chased rather than chasing. Ultimately, of course, whether it was rape depends on whether Mat thinks it was rape. Does he?

 

Would Mat say she forced him or would he say she was just too pushy and "indecent"? If he says it wasn't rape, is that because he has no objection to a relationship with Tylin per se but merely objects to some of the details? (Id est, perhaps he's a sexist who can't deal with powerful or sexually agressive women--certainly, he has issues with Aes Sedai and noblewomen and "Lord Mat" tends to pursue tavern girls and servants for his erotic adventures.) Or is he culturally incapable of recognizing he was raped? As Luckers pointed out, some men don't understand that it's ok for them not to want sex. I once met a man who was well into his 30s before he realized he had the right to say "no".

 

Should Tylin have backed off? Morally, yes, but I'm not sure she could. The Wheel spins out Ta'veren when it needs to force the pattern to go in a certain direction. The pattern required that Mat stay in town long enough to meet and kidnap Tuon. Ta'veren twist chance and twist others' behavior in directions they would not normally have gone in order change the pattern to the way the wheel wants. From Beslan's response when he finds out Mat wasn't just playing hard to get, we know Tylin's behavior was not normal, culturally or personally. If the Wheel and Mat's Ta'verenness were forcing Tylin to make Mat her pretty and keep him in town until Tuon got there, does she bear moral responsibility for it? Can a normal person resist the pull of a Ta'veren? Did the Wheel rape Tylin?

[bac5665]

Its the same as with a boss harassing a secratary--to say no, to leave, involves extra risks. Losing jobs and so forth. Thats why sexual harassment laws exist.

 

This is, I think, Serenla's point (correct me if I'm wrong):  What you describe between a boss and secretary is sexual harassment, not rape.  Just like the theft analogy earlier, there are degrees.  Rape, and what happened to Mat both fall under that Broad category of Sexual Harassment, and both would be punishable criminally in modern systems.  But they are not the same final crime.  Maybe that difference isn't important to you, but it is a difference, and it does make some difference.  Enough that we have different words for them, even in our modern justice system.  Tylin would be guilty of sexually abusing a subordinate, which is a serious crime, but not on the same level as rape.  Rape is a capitol offense.  Sexual harassment is a lessor crime.  Still a serious one, but not at the same level as rape.

[Gentled Ben]

Here, this isn't difficult. All you do is type the word "rape" into Google and see what comes up. Here are two quick examples: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape

http://kidshealth.org/teen/safety/safebasics/rape_what_to_do.html

Mat was raped.

[Luckers]

This is, I think, Serenla's point (correct me if I'm wrong):  What you describe between a boss and secretary is sexual harassment, not rape.  Just like the theft analogy earlier, there are degrees.  Rape, and what happened to Mat both fall under that Broad category of Sexual Harassment, and both would be punishable criminally in modern systems.  But they are not the same final crime.  Maybe that difference isn't important to you, but it is a difference, and it does make some difference.  Enough that we have different words for them, even in our modern justice system.  Tylin would be guilty of sexually abusing a subordinate, which is a serious crime, but not on the same level as rape.  Rape is a capitol offense.  Sexual harassment is a lessor crime.  Still a serious one, but not at the same level as rape.

 

I agree, this isn't the same as a violent rape--but genuine sexual intercourse occurred as a result of these unwanted advances. This is not a boss giving his secretary a pinch on the butt and calling her 'dollface'.

 

Criminally, in the current system, based on her use of her position and the knife what Tylin did constitutes rape, not plain sexual harassment. It would be a dificult case to prove--the defence would use 'he said, she said' and likely win--but if they could prove every moment of it, with say video evidence or something, then yes, what she did constitutes rape.

 

Perhaps boss and secratary dont address this as an example. Prison Guard and inmate might work better. Use of the knowledge of threat, plus control of the enviroment to intimidate someone within the scope of your power--genuine power--into submission.

 

Its rape, not harassment.

[vainebekonnes]

Criminally, in the current system, based on her use of her position and the knife what Tylin did constitutes rape, not plain sexual harassment. It would be a dificult case to prove--the defence would use 'he said, she said' and likely win--but if they could prove every moment of it, with say video evidence or something, then yes, what she did constitutes rape.

 

This was actually the point of my previous post.  If he was a woman, sure it would be.  Depending on the state it might be, but some states don't recognize the ability of a woman being able to rape a man.  So it would only work depending on the specifics of the law on whether or not it would be rape.  The knife alone makes certain it was an encounter that occurred under the threat of lethal violence, but whether or not that constitutes rape depends on the definition that someone uses.  I certainly think it is, but unfortunately, it is just as supported that it's not.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I think Serenla (SP?) is right. Mats quote after the encounter proves it. "I'm supposed to do the chasing. It's not natural!" after he took the pipe stem out of his mouth. Not, say...Ran to bathe himself because he felt so dirty and violated. Someone who is raped doesn't stick around to smoke a cigarette afterwards. It all comes down to the simple fact the she made the first move and every subsequential move afterwards. He wasn't distressed at the act of sex at all. He was distressed that it wasn't him who initiated it and because of his instinctual dislike of nobles and authority figures. That's it. End of story.

[Serenla]

 

1. We don't have the actual details of the physical act, therefore to determine if rape occured we must use the reactions of those involved to make that judgement. 

Mat's

• Mat's thoughts directly after the event indicate that he found her behavior unnatural for a women.  But that if she wasn't a queen, he'd have pursued her.  Not disguist with the actual act, just who's idea it was or who the aggressor was.  Definately not a rape victim's complaint. 
  
• There have been no signs in any later books that Mat has experienced any of the normal signs of a victim of rape.
  

Tylin's

• For Tylin to have raped Mat, she would have had to received more than a token protest that Mat did not want to.  These are the protests that she received:
  • When she was on his lap, "that someone might walk in", "respect for her crown" and "betrothal to a girl back home".  She laughed at these and rightly so, she has been talking to Elayne and Nynaeve, she has an idea as to who Mat is.  We know Mat even better and these are lame excuses.
    
  • On the day in question, "I don't have bloody time for...", "What are you going to do?" and "You can't do this to me".  To Tylin, the last was a challenge, not a rejection.
    

  For someone to be guilty of rape, it has to be clear that their advances are unwanted.  Mat never said no, he acted like it was an inconvience not a rape.

  [*]Afterward she talks to him like a lover, not a victim.  She clearly doesn't think she did anything wrong.(Not that all rapists would.)

2. Mat's Discomfort

For six and a half books, Mat has made his distain for nobles clear.  He has told everyone who would listen, that he was "not a bloody lord".  So it stands to reason that a relationship with a noble would not be something he would be comfotable with or want anyone to know about.  If it had been his idea and he had been the aggressor he would still be uncomfortable with the relationship.

3.  Tylin's Power

What does Mat care if she's a queen?  In the same book, he tells the Windfinder to the Mistress of the Ships that the Seafolk can do what Nynaeve and Elayne want or he'll "tie the lot of [them] across horses like packsaddles and haul them there."  He rolled his wife and the heir to the Seanchan Empire up in a tapesty and gagged her.  Mat is not easily intimidated by nobles.  He is usually the one intimidating them.

4.  Mat's Agreement with Nynaeve and Elayne

This agreement made Mat's life easier if he had gone back on it, it would not have meant anything other than the two being their normal selves. A pain to Mat but hardly worth being raped for.

5.  Pressures on Men

Wouldn't know what pressures men face in society, but giving in to social pressure is consenting.  If Tylin had been unattractive to Mat, he would have been faced with that same pressure but I doubt the outcome would have been the same.

6. The Knife

Or knives...  They were in the bedpost afterwards so she let go of them long enough for Mat to get them and leave.  He didn't.  What rape victim would stay, given the opportunty to leave? 

7.  If Mat was a woman...

Morgase faced the situation you discribe with Valda, I believe.  I haven't seen a discussion of it.  Morgase was taken advantage of and was traumatized by it, even though or because she agreed to it.  Was that rape?  I would say no because she said "Yes".  Do I think Valda deserved to die? Absolutely.

8.  I have to agree on one point.  Men can be raped.  And to rape a man is not more acceptable than raping a woman. 

This is, I think, Serenla's point (correct me if I'm wrong):  What you describe between a boss and secretary is sexual harassment, not rape.  Just like the theft analogy earlier, there are degrees.  Rape, and what happened to Mat both fall under that Broad category of Sexual Harassment, and both would be punishable criminally in modern systems.  But they are not the same final crime.  Maybe that difference isn't important to you, but it is a difference, and it does make some difference.  Enough that we have different words for them, even in our modern justice system.  Tylin would be guilty of sexually abusing a subordinate, which is a serious crime, but not on the same level as rape.  Rape is a capitol offense.  Sexual harassment is a lessor crime.  Still a serious one, but not at the same level as rape.

Yes, my entire reason for discussing this ad nauseum is that to compare Mat and Tylin to a classic rape is to lessen the true horror of the crime.  I have known rape victims and victims of child molestation.  To see the pain and self disguist that these people are forced to live with is heartbreaking beyond words.  Dealing with these devestating events is not a matter of personal strength or personality.  Mat's situtation is that he was a reluctant participant and that is not on the same level as forcing someone who is completely opposed to and disguisted by the idea of the situation. 

Tylin's actions were not acceptable to me, but that doesn't mean that she is guilty of rape.  I would classify it as sexual misconduct or somesuch to make it clear that it was not at the same level as an incident where the victim protests and says get off me and throws up.

 

Maybe this entire discussion comes down to symantics.  On a scale of one to ten, ten being the most heinous and unforgivable, what Tylin did to Mat ranks around a 2, 3 at the most.  A situation where the victim screams no and trys to get away would be a 10.  Is that a fair assessment?

[Thor]

if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it.

 

As has been stated before, there are proven cases in which women have orgasmed during rape, and cases of men ejaculating during forced sodomy. Physical response to sexual stimuli does not equate permission. I mean that very concept is as disgusting as it is adolescent--are you so desperate for sex that you cannot understand the distinction between arousal and decision. He didn't want to. She ignored him. End of game.

 

Its the same as with a boss harassing a secratary--to say no, to leave, involves extra risks. Losing jobs and so forth. Thats why sexual harassment laws exist.

 

What most disturbed me was Elayne's giggling. Had Tylin come to her and said the reverse she would have been furious--she was just on the plain assumption. Yet Mat says it and she giggles. That is truly disgusting.

 

You completely avoided my earlier comment by the way, the one that were this to occur with a king and a woman we'd be up in arms.

 

the fact whether they enjoyed it or not did not matter, if he didn't really didn't want to, he could have avoided it.  even his manner of refusal prior to the event was weak and inviting for tylin.  compare it with rand's refusal of berelain and also compare it with rand's little session with aviendha.

[vainebekonnes]

All those might be good points for the point you are trying to make, except for the fact that she used a knife to threaten him.

[Serenla]

All those might be good points for the point you are trying to make, except for the fact that she used a knife to threaten him.

And at some point let go of them to stab into the bedpost, hard enough that she had to yank them out.  If someone is threatening a person into anything, they will stop them or leave as soon as the threat is removed.  Mat staying means that he wanted to stay.

[vainebekonnes]

All those might be good points for the point you are trying to make, except for the fact that she used a knife to threaten him.

And at some point let go of them to stab into the bedpost, hard enough that she had to yank them out.  If someone is threatening a person into anything, they will stop them or leave as soon as the threat is removed.  Mat staying means that he wanted to stay.

 

If this was a female, and when she was trying to leave the king put a knife against her throat, whether or not the king stuck it in the bedpost, you would probably view it as a straight forward rape.  I say probably because I can't say for certain how you think, but just reverse the gender roles here for a second.  Unless you say that men can't be raped, because a man forced into a situation like Mat's, does tend to not have the same emotional scars that a woman does.  That is a valid argument.  Saying that he had the chance to leave after having his life threatened, says that any time that a woman has a chance to escape a situation of rape after her life has been threatened with a weapon, well then she would have left if she didn't really want it.  That's not only idiotic but insulting to a great many victims of rape.  So either you do not hold the genders equally in this regard, which is a perfectly acceptable claim, if one I disagree with, or you are making the requirements for rape to occur so stringent that most rapes aren't really rapes.

[Serenla]

 

If this was a female, and when she was trying to leave the king put a knife against her throat, whether or not the king stuck it in the bedpost, you would probably view it as a straight forward rape.  I say probably because I can't say for certain how you think, but just reverse the gender roles here for a second. 

 

If the woman had Mat's strength advantage, Mat's agility, Mat's ability to fight and Mat's experience dealing with life threatening situations, it would be the same difference.  This isn't even the first time Mat has had a knife/spear to his throat in a sexual encounter. (Maiden's Kiss ring any bells?) For anyone else (male or female), the knife might have shocked them dumb, but this is similar enough that Mat would have recovered fom the shock rather quickly.

 

Unless you say that men can't be raped,

Have you read my other replies?  This is third or forth time i have said that a man can be raped. 

 

because a man forced into a situation like Mat's, does tend to not have the same emotional scars that a woman does. That is a valid argument. 

Because a situation like Mat's was not rape!!!  A raped man would be just as scarred as a raped women, possibly more so, because of societies pressure for men to be strong and so on and so forth. 

Saying that he had the chance to leave after having his life threatened, says that any time that a woman has a chance to escape a situation of rape after her life has been threatened with a weapon,well then she would have left if she didn't really want it.

Why would whether or not Mat could leave in this instance have any bearing on any other situation in any time or place?  Because I can leave my house that means eveyone else in the whole universe past or present or future can leave their house too?  That is illogical.  We are discussing this particular instance not any other. 

 

 

That's not only idiotic but insulting to a great many victims of rape. 

Yes it is.  Which is why I said Mat could leave, not rape victims in general.  But if they could leave, without being killed or whatever they are being threatened with happening, they would.

 

So either you do not hold the genders equally in this regard, which is a perfectly acceptable claim, if one I disagree with, or you are making the requirements for rape to occur so stringent that most rapes aren't really rapes.

It doesn't matter what anyone says, people should be treated equally, but physically, emotionally, and mentally they are not.  Some are strong, some are weak; some are clearheaded, others are hysterical; some are smart, others not so much.  Even though we are in an Egwene and her virginity thread (which she still has by the way), we are discussing Mat and whether he was raped by Tylin.  To do this objectively we have to consider Mat's capabilities and his reactions.  From what we as readers know about Mat, it is a safe assumption to believe that a knife in a bedpost is not a threat to him.  He could have left as soon as that knife was out of Tylin's hand.

[MikeRiley]

..and promptly have the guards called down on him. For disobeying a queen, you know. One who has no problem using her people to keep Mat there.

[Graendals favourite]

It isn't necessary for a rape victim, or any other victim, to go through every possible futile effort of escape when they know it is no good and only causes further harm, yet it is still rape because they did not want the intercourse to happen before it happened. Stupidity or foolishness is not required.

 

There are larger things afoot than personal inviolability here, the people are all striving for things, some to fight the Shadow. Ebou Dar for one is not a safe city, going about unarmed can get you killed in a day, especially for a man. To expect people abandon everything just because of the threat of rape, when they cannot though they are often in mortal danger, is preposterous. So Mat should abandon Ebou Dar in a courageous effort of flight, so that the Bowl is never found, or if it is found Elayne will be dead and Nynaeve likely as well, the ter'angreal at the hand of Sammael? Mat never asked for Tylin's affections, that he put up with her, not being able to see to his duties otherwise, does not mean his duty did not require him to put up with rape.

 

I would say the psychological effects vary also. How much your world is rocked by such a thing, and a serious accident is pretty much comparable to this, it depends on your experiences and view of yourself and the world. A man is always human, but it is not necessary to remain obedient to every call of nature, remained governed by emotion and instict, it is possible to develop as a human. As an example in simple terms, I think a rape has a much greater impact on a person when it happens the first time.

 

 

It occurs to me to add, that it is a great personal ability, one that may not come as a given or without work, to be able to see humanity in a stranger, to feel empathy even for those who harm you or insult you, yet by no means does this mean you would be excusing people for crimes done against you. It simply means that you see people as people, whether they commit crimes or not, despite their shortcomings as people. In Tylin's case she did not act wrongly according to Ebou Dari customs, though she must have pushed the limits, but what goes in Ebou Dar is hardly the best guide to moral behaviour.

[vainebekonnes]

Because a situation like Mat's was not rape!!!  A raped man would be just as scarred as a raped women, possibly more so, because of societies pressure for men to be strong and so on and so forth. 

If only studies done on the psychology of sex actually agreed with you.  Penetration changes the emotional effects surrounding the sexual encounter.  So, if the man is penetrated, by all means yes, it is just as scarring if not more so.  However, if the man is not penetrated, the emotional effects aren't the same.  You are not a man, so would not understand.  But I can say, that if I was single my reaction would be much like Mat's, with maybe a bit more anger.  However I would never, ever, consent to sexual relations with that woman.  I have only been with one woman, who is my wife.  I have turned down many opportunities over the years, and been called various names for it.  However, if I was raped, which I would have to be in a situation like this seeing how I would not consent, I would carry no emotional scars.  Because it's different for us.  There isn't the vulnerability, or the level of emotional involvement for most of us to the degree it is for most women.  It seems to me that the main thing that is bothering you is that we are calling it rape, and you are thinking that if it was rape why wasn't he bothered as much as he should be.  Most men wouldn't be as bothered as you think they should be, unless they were penetrated.  I was never a huge fan of the Psychology of Human Sexuality, but that was one thing that makes all the sense in the world to me.  I know how I react, I know how my wife reacts, and I know that's what they say is normal.  That's good enough for me.

[spothistto]

Maybe Mat is one of those people who can't be raped. He just gives in and enjoys himself, taking the threats and the knife as a kinky foreplay.

 

[Luckers]

I think Serenla (SP?) is right. Mats quote after the encounter proves it. "I'm supposed to do the chasing. It's not natural!" after he took the pipe stem out of his mouth. Not, say...Ran to bathe himself because he felt so dirty and violated. Someone who is raped doesn't stick around to smoke a cigarette afterwards. It all comes down to the simple fact the she made the first move and every subsequential move afterwards. He wasn't distressed at the act of sex at all. He was distressed that it wasn't him who initiated it and because of his instinctual dislike of nobles and authority figures. That's it. End of story.

 

My first issue with this is you speak so firmly of rape victims and what they do after the rape--running off to bathe, and smoking cigarettes. How precisely do you claim to know this? It's not sustained in any psychological journal i know of--though to be fair i only had psych as a minor. Perhaps you have further knowledge that i do not. If so, please extrapolate.

 

In the presumptive absense of that knowledge, men sexually victimized by women have greater difficulties realising it--even to themselves. The strong social onus for the men to own the sex that occurred prevents actions such as bathing to rid oneself of filth--an action that directly acknowledges that they were violated.

 

My second problem is your claim that he wasn't distressed at the sex. He shows quite clearly how distressed he is. He directly seeks to avoid her, lays plan after plan to escape, and displays clearly his distress during the act.

 

1. We don't have the actual details of the physical act, therefore to determine if rape occured we must use the reactions of those involved to make that judgement. 

 

Actually Serenla, you could first try by responding to those who responded to you.

 

if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it.

 

As has been stated before, there are proven cases in which women have orgasmed during rape, and cases of men ejaculating during forced sodomy. Physical response to sexual stimuli does not equate permission. I mean that very concept is as disgusting as it is adolescent--are you so desperate for sex that you cannot understand the distinction between arousal and decision. He didn't want to. She ignored him. End of game.

 

Its the same as with a boss harassing a secratary--to say no, to leave, involves extra risks. Losing jobs and so forth. Thats why sexual harassment laws exist.

 

What most disturbed me was Elayne's giggling. Had Tylin come to her and said the reverse she would have been furious--she was just on the plain assumption. Yet Mat says it and she giggles. That is truly disgusting.

 

You completely avoided my earlier comment by the way, the one that were this to occur with a king and a woman we'd be up in arms.

 

the fact whether they enjoyed it or not did not matter, if he didn't really didn't want to, he could have avoided it.  even his manner of refusal prior to the event was weak and inviting for tylin.  compare it with rand's refusal of berelain and also compare it with rand's little session with aviendha.

 

Curious. You say the fact that they enjoyed it or not did not matter, yet in the post i was responding to you stated that "if mat didn't want to do it, he couldn't have got a hardon.  unless you got a source where tylin forced 3 jars of viagra down his throat?  even viagra won't work if your mind is not focused on it."

 

It would seem to me, given you state his hardon as the proof that he did want to do it that you are indeed saying that his enjoyment of the matter does matter. Indeed you even suggest that the use of viagra would not work unless he truly wanted it--an idea that is as silly as it is medically unsound.