Women aren't that catty!

[CUBAREY]

Again, exception to the rule.  The ratio of men to women in higher corporate settings is quite unbalanced and these women are the exceptions to the way the majority of women behave.  Not all women are in modern corporations.

 

True but all major female roles in WOT are part of a higherarchical structure (whether it be the White Tower, Nobility, Sea farers, etc.)and all women thus come with the same baggage of interacting in such a structure (which prides itself on direct orders-which can come off as bossy, or arrogent).

 

I quite clearly write from my viewpoint and have never suggested that it's my way or the highway.

 

 

My experiences as a woman for over 30 years don't count?  

 

Your argument that my experiences are not absolute can be said of every single person's experiences used for defending arguments in the entire world.  You just nullified them all!  

 

Actually you put your viewpoint as a categorical denial of Mr A's claim.

 

I don't think she treats Mat like a scallawag, because that implies she finds his behaviour roguish and, while upsetting, still cute in some way.

 

You are correct she sees him as an immatuure prankster and playboy which is how all the Emonds Fielders see him at the start of the series. The first character to see him differently is Suane Sanche after she cures him and soon after compares him to her layabout uncle who died saving people from a burning building. Its quite normal for Nyneave who was his baby sitter, then a town disciplinarian to take longer to view him differently.

 

I agree she starts to hange in Ebou Dar, but it doesn't really seem to stick much.  I really like the Elayne character as well.  I like that she's so bloody snooty and arrogant and never seems to learn.  

 

She is a snooty princes thus its not surprising that she acts snooty and a bit arrogent. After all she has been trained from birth to deal with national problems and to present herself as a leader who has the answers (even when she doesn't).

 

really liked how she got control over the rebel tower, but she complains about Rand being arrogant while she's ten times worse than he is.  She misses out huge obvious things (like Alanna forming a connection with Rand in the letter or being suspicious of Halima).  I'm all for being manipulative and not being nice when you're a leader, but she's too far past that.  She's one of those modern corporate female leaders, but even they put on a facade of politeness when dealing with others (as do the men).  She does this very, very well when taking control of the rebel tower, but it goes to pieces when she tries to work with Rand.

 

Now exactly how was she supposed to be suspicous of Halima. We had the benefit of viewing her from the point of view of those committed to the dark. She saw her as a pretty flirt who went far but never too far with her flirting and who offered her some measure of help from headaches she could not explain. Her treatment of Rand is also explainable from their past relationship. He was a childhood love that she could pretty much befuddle at will. Then he becomes the DR and all of a sudden he begins to disregard her advise and the advise of those she values (Morraine, the Wise Ones) no wonder she sees him as rude and needing to be taught a little humility.

 

My opinion is that the three of them believe they are themselves more important in the Last Battle than Rand, Mat, and Perrin, and that they are doing the important work while the guys are just fooling about.  I would like to see them recognise that the three men are the most important players in the whole war against the Dark One and that they need to support them instead of guide (in other words: control) them.

 

Just about every major character male or female shares this trait not just the three wonder girls. Elaida, Morraine and Suane were all much more afflicted with this failing, which is one shared by the vast majority of A.S. and even Wise Ones. Moreover, the attitude of the Tearens and Charhernans not to mention the Seanchen is not much better. Even, Perrin and Mat who should know better act like their troubles are the most important. Frankly its an attitude which Jordan to a greater or lesser degree gives to just about all characters (which I believe is spot on as we all see the world from our own viewpoint which by defintion places us at the center of the universe).

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

Well said, Cubarey.  :)

[Mr Ares]

My experiences as a woman for over 30 years don't count?

No. You state as fact that it doesn't happen, people point out that it does. You're wrong. In certain circumstances, women do behave as they do in the books.

 

You know how it is in junior high school

Not really, no.

That's how women work, there's no point in denying it.

Sometimes. Not in all places at all times. If RJ has seen women acting in this way, then is it unreasonable for him to write women acting in this way?

 

I personally perfer a variety of personalities in all the characters. I have a theory that Jordan liked the whole 'bossy female' personality so much it bled into all his female characters. He said someplace that he took characteristics of his wife and put them in all the female characters, which is a noble idea, but it gives them all a kind of sameness. I'd like to have that 19th century finished lady alongside the bossy bitch alongside the simpering flower alongside the bookworm alongside the fierce warrior princess alongside the passionate politician alongside Spock.

Well, most of them do exist in the books, more or less. Not as the one dimensional cliches you present, though. For example, Elaida and Alviarin are different. Verin and Cadsuane. Min, Tylin, Setalle Anan, Birgitte. We see a fair bit of variety in female characters, they're not all just the same person in a different dress.

 

The only thing I don't like about her (other than the constant braid tugging) is that she never seems to improve or mature in a great way. I don't believe her behaviour really improves until she goes chasing after Rand at Far Madding. Perhaps the exact point is when she marries Lan, and somewhat calms down.

Or perhaps it has to do with breaking her block. Once that had happened, she didn't need to be so angry all the time. But her character certainly does develop, up to that point and afterwards.

[Kaznen]

One women who I think is not catty is Tuon.  She does her share of "girl talk" but she isn't always lament the male population's worthlessness.  She respects men and their opinions as much as women and her superiority complex is based on the fact she is a high ranking noble, not noblewoman just noble.

 

And I don't think Avi is that bad at looking down at men.  In Aiel society the women can fall as hard as the men.  And a Two Step can kill a wise women just as fast as a clan chief.   

[seasnake]

I actually like how they all are, generally.  The three main "catty" characters make a ton of sense.  The other characters are generally a lot nicer, but since Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve have far more screen time than other women this becomes the familiar theme.

 

First, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyneave are all Aes Sedai, they're young, have been at the tower and believe it's the center of the world, they're extremely strong, they're physically attractive. It makes sense that they would start out thinking they were the hottest stuff walking. 

 

Throw in the fact that men generally mature later than women and of course they're going to think they're the important and wonderful people while the men are the silly boys who just run around. 

 

Then throw in the men's attitude towards Aes Sedai.  They order, avoid, run from or depise them in general, and these women want to be Aes Sedai, are told Aes Sedai are everything important.  It'd be like being a devout Catholic and watching people mock, disobey and fear the Pope.  You'd lose respect for those people.

 

Finally, Elayne is a princess.  She's used to her word being law.  Nyneave was a Wisdom, and ran her village with an iron fist.  If you notice these two take the longest to get over themselves, there's a reason for that.  People who are used to getting their way all the time generally become quite unreasonable (Veruca Salt syndrome). 

 

All of this makes for superbrat.  And these women have to grow and learn despite all of this.  They have some good roots that help, and they are fond of the boys and people in general, but it makes sense it would be a struggle for them to keep it all in perspective.  They would have trouble being as nice as they should, or doing what is right.  Also, they're all strong pesonalities trying to run the ship so that would lead to more conflict.

 

I find their behavior to be completely reasonable, and I'm pleased they all grow from it. 

[Kaznen]

Nyneave is excusable, she became a wisdom at a very young age and had to assert her athuroity on the people who thought she was to young for the job.  And when she went to the tower she went from big fish in a little pond to small fish in a large ocean.

 

As wisdom she expected the respect she was due, and as wisdom in Emond's Field she got it, even from Moraine.  But when she went from a high rank to a very low and submissive rank she had trouble adjusting.  Then when she was left alone in Falme she quickly unlearned everything that she had to forcablly learn.

 

After she returned from the Falme she was quickly sent out again and during her long adventures she quickly gain a liking for bossing people around and had the character to do so (there were scences in tFoH were she was bossing men around because she could).  When she got to Salidar she had some harsh realaties beaten in to her concerning her place in the world.

 

But I don't think she believes AS are the end all be all, I don't think she even like the organization much, just a few sisters.  And if Rand decided the AS order needs to go and the women should be united with the men as Asha'man I think she would support that.

 

Her loyalties to Egwene are because she is Egwene, not because she is the Amirilyn.  After she realized the SAS looked to treat Rand the same as the TAS she only stayed to learn about the OP and get past her block.

 

Shame Rand doesn't realize how loyal to him she is, even without oaths.

[seasnake]

And yet Rand turns to Nynaeve when he needs to cleanse Saidin.  He linked with her and let her guide the link, that shows a lot of faith.  Hopefully he'll rely on her more and more.

[Kaznen]

I think the trust had a small smart in choosing her to help. 

 

First she is one of the few women who is strong enough to use the Chodan Kal. 

 

Second of all the women (including Egwene, Elayne, and Moriane) who are strong enough, if he came to them and said, "let's go fix saidin, I know how to do it!" they wouldn't believe he did or would want a second opion of the theories behind it (meaning AS approval), but because Nyneave doesn't think AS are all that smart and she has already seen pull off the impossible she wouldn't need convincing. 

 

And third, of all the women strong enough for the Choden Kal she is the strongest.  And the difference in strength is quit large, so by having her use the sa'angreal rand could get an extra 20-30% of output.  And by want happened to the sa'angreal and access key that was barely enough to get the job done.

[Scraps]

From my experience, women can be nasty nasty things. They are absolutely awesome when they are your lover, or your relative. As a friend? They can be fun to get along with but very secretive and gossipy. and sometimes bitchy.

 

Though, the women in jordan's books come off as bitches nearly all the time. but then again, the relationships they lead... the status they have... particularly aes sedai,... they all have an important role so we're probably not looking at their personalities from a peaceful world type scenario... but the women in WOT are nice when they banter to each other.

[Mr Ares]

And yet Rand turns to Nynaeve when he needs to cleanse Saidin. He linked with her and let her guide the link, that shows a lot of faith. Hopefully he'll rely on her more and more.

Rand guided the link at the Cleansing.

 

And third, of all the women strong enough for the Choden Kal she is the strongest.

Alivia is stronger.

 

From my experience, women can be nasty nasty things.

In my experience, women tend to be people rather than things.

They are absolutely awesome when they are your lover, or your relative.

Not always.

[Kaznen]

And third, of all the women strong enough for the Choden Kal she is the strongest.

Alivia is stronger.

 

True, but Rand didn't know about her at the time and she doesn't know how to link or know much about the OP in general (that is for the sul'dam to know).

[Gentled Ben]

And third, of all the women strong enough for the Choden Kal she is the strongest.

Alivia is stronger.

 

True, but Rand didn't know about her at the time and she doesn't know how to link or know much about the OP in general (that is for the sul'dam to know).

Of course he knew about her; Nynaeve gave Alivia her angreals just before sitting down with the Choeden Kal. Linking doesn't require lots of knowledge, as Rand did it on his first try (right then and there, at the Cleansing), and so did the Windfnders when  they used the Bowl of the Winds. Alivia seems to know enough about the OP to survive a duel with Lanfear, an expert on the OP...

[CUBAREY]

I believe that it was stated several times in the books that Alivia was an expert in using the power as a weapon but was lacking in knowledge to use it for other purposes, and using it as a weapon would be what mattered in a duel with Lanfar or any channeler.

[Gentled Ben]

Well, Kaznen's point doesn't really apply anyway, as she only needs to be able to embrace saidar bedause Rand is the one to weave the flows.

[lgautam]

It was never given in the book what exactly happened in the Alivia-Cyndane duel. We only know that Alivia had her arm broken and Cyndane departed unharmed.

I find this hard to swallow. Alivia was stronger than Nynaeve and that means she comes close to equalling Lanfear. She also had an angreal -weak though it was, it would've amplified her ability by atleast two times. She even had a ter'angreal that would nullify webs.

Alivia should've been able to crush Lanfear easily. I find the outcome rather puzzling.

[Nightstrike]

I find this hard to swallow. Alivia was stronger than Nynaeve and that means she comes close to equalling Lanfear. She also had an angreal -weak though it was, it would've amplified her ability by atleast two times. She even had a ter'angreal that would nullify webs.

Alivia should've been able to crush Lanfear easily. I find the outcome rather puzzling.

Yeah, me too. That's why I think Alivia is weaker than Cyndane.

[Kaznen]

When Rand went to Nyneave he didn't know about Alvia.  When she was captured he didn't know she was super charged in the OP.

 

Also Rand thinks of the OP as a science, the 3rd age AS think of it as ingredients for a recipe, the seanchan see it as tricks to teach a dog.

 

And Rand knows Nyneave's mettle.  At the end of tFoH I bet he reconized Moggy with Nyneave and the collar.  But because of Asmodean who is he to say it's wrong to capture a forsaken and make them teach things and the prevois events of the day were on his mind but he respected what it would take in courage and skill to capture a forsaken.  But damane are like dogs on a leash.  The Sul'dam control them and tell them what to do, without a suldam they have little to no courage.  Just because a damane is off the leash and not terrifiesd doesn't mean she is ready to charge into battle.

 

Rand knew Nyneave wouldn't panic and run he had no gaurentees about Alvia.  Nyneave was still the best choice.

[Mr Ares]

I find this hard to swallow. Alivia was stronger than Nynaeve and that means she comes close to equalling Lanfear. She also had an angreal -weak though it was, it would've amplified her ability by atleast two times. She even had a ter'angreal that would nullify webs.

Alivia should've been able to crush Lanfear easily. I find the outcome rather puzzling.

Strength isn't everything. Cyndane knew a lot more about the Power, and that allowed her to survive.

[Gentled Ben]

When Rand went to Nyneave he didn't know about Alvia.  When she was captured he didn't know she was super charged in the OP.

 

Also Rand thinks of the OP as a science, the 3rd age AS think of it as ingredients for a recipe, the seanchan see it as tricks to teach a dog.

 

And Rand knows Nyneave's mettle.  At the end of tFoH I bet he reconized Moggy with Nyneave and the collar.  But because of Asmodean who is he to say it's wrong to capture a forsaken and make them teach things and the prevois events of the day were on his mind but he respected what it would take in courage and skill to capture a forsaken.  But damane are like dogs on a leash.  The Sul'dam control them and tell them what to do, without a suldam they have little to no courage.  Just because a damane is off the leash and not terrifiesd doesn't mean she is ready to charge into battle.

 

Rand knew Nyneave wouldn't panic and run he had no gaurentees about Alvia.  Nyneave was still the best choice.

When has Alivia ever shown a lack of courage?

 

What point are you trying to make by describing how different people view the OP?

[Galeros]

I imagine he chose Nynaeve because despite how she behaves sometimes, he knows that she is a good person at heart. He grew up with her, and he knows that while she can be bossy, she really does have everyone's best interests in mind.

[Gentled Ben]

For sure--he trusts her. She was the obvious choice, despite her many personality flaws.  :P

[Kaznen]

Alvia might have been the damane that paniced when she was uncollared.  When Rand and Nyneave were leaving Nyn must have been, "BTW this is Alvia, she's coming to too."

 

Rand didn't know anything about her.

[Gentled Ben]

No, Alivia was the damane who said she wanted to kill sul'dam. Now, you're just making stuff up.  ::)

Edit: Straight from the Encyclopedia WoT: Nynaeve, Lan and Alivia leave the Royal Palace with Rand and Min. Nynaeve takes some of the angreal and ter'angreal from the Ebou Dar stash. (WH,Ch12)

 

That's Chapter 12; well before the Cleansing. She traveled to Far Madding with Rand. Rand knew her.

[CUBAREY]

I imagine he chose Nynaeve because despite how she behaves sometimes, he knows that she is a good person at heart. He grew up with her, and he knows that while she can be bossy, she really does have everyone's best interests in mind.

 

I do not think that at the time Rand was concerned that Nyneave was a "good person at heart". She was the second most powerful female channeler at his disposal and one that he was sure he could trust more then his other option (Alivia was an ex-Damme very powerful and the only thing that he really knew about her is that she might be connected with the "to live you must die" prophecy. Nyneave was the logical choice at the time and emotion (if Rand had any at the time) was not really involved in the decision.

[Serenla]

Rand's reason for choosing Nynaeve is in Winter's Heart: With the Choedan Kal: paragraph 16:

"Nynaeve will link with me." He trusted Nynaeve, to link with, but no one else. She was Aes Sedai, but she had been the Wisdom of Emond's Field; he had to trust her.