Creator in the flesh?

[mb]

This may sound crazy, but what if the Creator had at least two parts?  One that exists that outside the world, and another that could enter the world.

 

The most likely candidate for that second part would probably be the Dragon/Dragon-Reborn.

 

[Jethro]

Would the Creator only channel Saidin? I would have thought the Creator would have his own form of Power just as the Great Lord has. I dont think Rand or Lews Therin are a part of the Creator myself, surely there would have been something by now to indicate it if they were. When people in the books say Rand is the Creator in the flesh or whatever it isnt anything worth believing, its just the sort of fanatical ravings of people desperate for something to believe in. Its about as believable as Masemas explanation to Aram that Perrin and Elyas are Shadowspawn, or all the random rumors that Rand killed Morgase, that Rand had turned to the Shadow, and all that crap.

[Charlz Fel]

Would RJ write himself into the series?

[Majsju]

Would RJ write himself into the series?

 

He already has. Look for a ter'angreal salvaged from a coastal city...

[Charlz Fel]

Would RJ write himself into the series?

 

He already has. Look for a ter'angreal salvaged from a coastal city...

 

I meant in his role as author/Creator, not just a cameo as a library.

[Kaznen]

I think the creator has a power he could give to Rand, as a counter to the DO's "True Power."

 

The OP is neutral but the TP and Divine Power (DP) can only be used with the perrmission of the DO or Creator.

[Builder]

Can anyone specify what Ter'Angreal that was uncovered from a coastal city...?

[Casco]

The little fat man who have alot of stories inside of him, the one Avienda tell Elayne about before she goes away to the Aeil. :)

I allways thought about that, why do the dark side have a "true power" but not the light? The answer can be that Saidin and Saidar together ARE the true power from light and the dark one created the "dark true power" to unbalance things.

 

 

[nnokwoodeye]

The little fat man who have alot of stories inside of him, the one Avienda tell Elayne about before she goes away to the Aeil. :)

I allways thought about that, why do the dark side have a "true power" but not the light? The answer can be that Saidin and Saidar together ARE the true power from light and the dark one created the "dark true power" to unbalance things.

 

I think that the power in the eye of the world wasn't saidin but actually something different. When rand used it, he didn't travel the usual way, he teleported himself like ishy did in the prologue. maybe the aes sedai who created the eye accidentally merged saidin and saidar and created something new.

 

Oh and if the creator was somewhere in the world, the best candidate is probably bela  ;)

 

[Luckers]

I loathe the Devine Power concept. For one thing it would completely invalidate all the work Rand did in cleansing saidin--i mean after all if the Creator were going to step in and aid the Light in such a way why wouldn't he do it before they destroyed the Female Choedan Kal in a useless effort to give men a power source that wouldn't drive them mad? Why didn't the Creator just give them access to this devine power?

 

Besides, who suggested the Creator was in any way devine?

 

Way too Dues Ex Machina. Sorry.

[Orange Fescue]

I loathe the Devine Power concept. For one thing it would completely invalidate all the work Rand did in cleansing saidin--i mean after all if the Creator were going to step in and aid the Light in such a way why wouldn't he do it before they destroyed the Female Choedan Kal in a useless effort to give men a power source that wouldn't drive them mad? Why didn't the Creator just give them access to this devine power?

 

Besides, who suggested the Creator was in any way devine?

 

Way too Dues Ex Machina. Sorry.

That's like saying "Besides, who suggested the sun is in any way solar?" The Creator created the universe and everything in it. With respect to that universe, He is God. Because "divine" means "of or relating to God or the gods", the Creator can't not be divine. God is divine by definition.

[ROB_88]

i thought it was generally accepted that Bela is the Creator

[Kaznen]

It wasn't a waste to cleanse Saidin.  It removed a big advantage the DO had over the light.  Now that men won't go mad using it tehy can work with women to do the things that can only be done together.

 

And not every man would be able to use the DP.  It is like the OP that is just there waiting to be used.  It is a power that can only be used with the creator's permission and if He thinks the situation calls for it.

 

It is just like how not every forsaken and dreadlord is able to use the TP.  Moggy said to Mordin that only 23 people in the AoL were allowed, and there were a lot more the 23 forsaken, to use that.  And the Mordin uses it all the time is shocking to the others because even when the DO allowed they couldn't keep useing it whenever.

 

And the DP has the same price of usage that TP has so it cannot be used lightly.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I'm sure that the creator does have some kind of power analgous to the True Power.  However, the warriors of The Light do not have access to it because to The Creator's strict non-interference policy.  Unfortunately, the DO has no such policy.

 

BTW, if Robert Jordan is himself the creator does that mean that the DO is Terry Goodkind?

 

DO = Wants to destroy the Wheel and create a perverted version of the world

Goodkind = writes perverted versions of Robert Jordan's stories.

[Luckers]

That's like saying "Besides, who suggested the sun is in any way solar?" The Creator created the universe and everything in it. With respect to that universe, He is God. Because "divine" means "of or relating to God or the gods", the Creator can't not be divine. God is divine by definition.

 

It's not actually, because we know the suns nature--comprising of hydrogen primrarily in a constant state of fission that produces an excess of electromagnetic radiation. Solar. In the Creators case we do not know him to be godlike (and thus divine). We do not know the limits or extents of his powers or abilities. The extents of his knowledge, his benevolence or purity of self (pertaining more to the Tri-Omni concept I agree--but then the word divine is linked to the tri-omni concept).

 

A closer analogy would to be to point to one of the stars and say it is solar. From our persepctive and limited perception of the stars they do look solar, yet some are not. Some a merely planets--or even man-made satelites at times. They have the same appearence to us as those which are indeed solar--yet they arn't.

 

Our limited knowledge of the Creator does not set in stone that he is god-like, thus indeed, we cannot infer that he is in any way divine. He has certain earmarks, but so too does the Evening 'Star'.

 

i thought it was generally accepted that Bela is the Creator

 

And I thought Bela jokes were generally accepted to be crimes against humanity. :p

 

It wasn't a waste to cleanse Saidin.  It removed a big advantage the DO had over the light.  Now that men won't go mad using it tehy can work with women to do the things that can only be done together.

 

And not every man would be able to use the DP.  It is like the OP that is just there waiting to be used.  It is a power that can only be used with the creator's permission and if He thinks the situation calls for it.

 

If the Creator were going to involve himself so proactively on behalf of the light then why not do it before they've destroyed the female Choedan Kal?  You speak of what situation he would think calls for it, but the premise behind him letting anyone use it is that he has a vested interest in the Light winning, and if he has a vested interest in the Light winning then he also had a vested interest in keeping the female Choedan Kal as a viable weapon. Letting all men use this Divine Power would therefore serve to more than double to Light's chances of success--which is what you claim to be the Creators ultimate goal and desire.

 

One could sustain that the latters destruction prevents formers possibility.

 

But I wasn't clear, the whole thing about the existence of a 'divine power' making it a waste to cleanse saidin is why i personally do not like it, not a reason for it not to exist. For me, it would completely invalidate what is to date Rand's greatest achievement.

 

The fact is there is nothing to suggest a Divine Power exists, nothing to suggest the Creator would make it accessble if it did--and alot to suggest that he in fact would not.

 

It is just like how not every forsaken and dreadlord is able to use the TP.  Moggy said to Mordin that only 23 people in the AoL were allowed, and there were a lot more the 23 forsaken, to use that.  And the Mordin uses it all the time is shocking to the others because even when the DO allowed they couldn't keep useing it whenever.

 

It was 29, not 23, and the Dark One withholds the use of it because he is jealous and self-serving. Surely your 'divine' Creator would not be so. Indeed the suppose it would be used at all is to suggest a degree of empathy in the Creator, and to suggest that is to suggest he would let all use it. Why not, if he so cares about the world?

 

Which by the way is against everything the books tell us about his motivations and desires.

 

And the DP has the same price of usage that TP has so it cannot be used lightly.

 

How can you possibly know that? You speak with a great deal of certainty about something that we don't even know exists. After all, why didn't Mierin detect it? She spent a great deal of her career searching for just that--she detected the Dark One's energy, why not the Creators?

[moroten]

What I wonder is how would the Light know they had access to this so called DP? The Dark One has direct contact and influence of Randland but we have seen nothing of the sort from the creator. Unless spinning out heroes from the wheel is considered taking a direct action.

 

Even if the creator gave them the DP, it would probably be alien to all the casters even if they discovered they had access to it, making them prefer the OP.

 

-Moroten

[Kaznen]

Part of the reason nobody knows and/or has accessed the DP is simply they never asked.

 

In the tDR when Ishy used the TP at the end he called out to the DO.  He saw that he couldn't defeat Rand with the OP, not while he had Callador(?) so he went to TP as a last resort.

 

The good guys don't even know the TP exists.  The only clue they had was when LTT mentioned it, that was it, Rand didn't know what LTT was talking about.

 

And using the TP would not mean the creator was taking part.  He would be letting some one (Rand) use a watered down version of his power as Rand sees fit to use it at only certain times.  I don't think the TP is pure DO power.

 

And it stands to reason that if the OP is like cigerettes then the TP is like crack or herion.  And the TP has effects on the channeler shorting their lifespan.  It stands to reason that DP would be just as addictive and harmful (balancing out a human having the Power of God).

 

But no one on either side even in the AoL has thought maybe their is an oppisite of the TP so they never looked.

 

And Rand would probaly be the only person who could use the DP being the "choosen one" and all that, plus as a counter to the DO's champion Mordin.

[Fjong]

Who came up with this "divine power" thing anyways, i haven't found anything at all in the books to suggest that there is such a thing. First of all, where would the balance be?, without this DP, there is the one power to balance TP, when we add this DP, then there is suddenly another force to "the good guys". Secondly didn't it say somewhere in the books that the creator made the Wheel, the one power (male and female) to drive it, and then left?

 

 

[Luckers]

Part of the reason nobody knows and/or has accessed the DP is simply they never asked.

 

People pray to the Creator all the time--I'm sure they've done it when faced with the Shadow too.

 

As a side note, the degree of absolutism of which you speak of this is disturbing.

 

The good guys don't even know the TP exists.  The only clue they had was when LTT mentioned it, that was it, Rand didn't know what LTT was talking about.

 

Actually mate, it is Rand which mentions it, not LTT. Of course Rand could only know because of the memory transfer between himself and LTT, but still, it was Rand that stated it, not LTT.

 

Aside from which what relevance does that have? Third Agers have no knowledge of the True Power, but then they have no knowledge of alot of things. The Age of Legenders knew of it--they could even detect it, its how Mierin first drilled the bore. She did not detect any 'divine power'.

 

And using the TP would not mean the creator was taking part.  He would be letting some one (Rand) use a watered down version of his power as Rand sees fit to use it at only certain times.  I don't think the TP is pure DO power.

 

 

So what? The issue still stands, if the Creator were going to do so, why not do so before the Female Choedan Kal was destroyed?

 

And it stands to reason that if the OP is like cigerettes then the TP is like crack or herion.  And the TP has effects on the channeler shorting their lifespan.  It stands to reason that DP would be just as addictive and harmful (balancing out a human having the Power of God).

 

Firstly, there is nothing that says the TP shortens lifespans. Indeed all the TP users we know of speak of immortality. Secondly, whats this about Power of God? Wheen did someone prove the Creator was God? For that matter why isn't the Dark One God, and his power seemingly causes immortality.

 

But no one on either side even in the AoL has thought maybe their is an oppisite of the TP so they never looked.

 

Actually they looked quite hard. This was before they knew what the True Power was of course, but never the less they looked.

 

And Rand would probaly be the only person who could use the DP being the "choosen one" and all that, plus as a counter to the DO's champion Mordin.

 

Yes, becuase if the Creator actually cared about the fate of the light he'd restrict his super-power to one individual. The Dark One does it because of jealousy, so maybe the Creator has the same reasons as well.

 

Kaznan, you state these things with amazing confidence, yet you've not responded to any of the comments against you--indeed, some of what you've said has already been addressed. Rhetoric is all nice and well but if you want us to continue this conversation then we need too actually have a back and forth.

[Kaznen]

Who came up with this "divine power" thing anyways, i haven't found anything at all in the books to suggest that there is such a thing. First of all, where would the balance be?, without this DP, there is the one power to balance TP, when we add this DP, then there is suddenly another force to "the good guys". Secondly didn't it say somewhere in the books that the creator made the Wheel, the one power (male and female) to drive it, and then left?

 

It also states in tDR, when Moriane explains it to Perrin, that the creator is good, and DO is evil but the Wheel of Time is neither. 

 

The One Power, or True Source, is what drives the Wheel of Time, and any channeler can access it and use it for whatever purpose, good and ill, that they please.  And it is also divided into Saidin and Saidar, which work together and fight each other balancing itself.

 

The TP isn't divided into male and female halves, so a man and women can use it however.  It is only granted by the DO to further the DO's ends.  And the times it is used it is only used for pain and destruction.

 

It leaves the balance out of whack.

 

BTW I was the one who created the DP theory, it was a while ago.

 

And Luckers:

 

-Know who hasn't prayed to the creator?  Rand, Mat, and Perrin, Mat even commented that he wasn't the praying type.

-In the scheme of the universe the Choeden Kal isn't important.  And also because it was detroyed a chain of events happened that I think were supposed to happen.  Otherwise they wouldn't have happened.

-The saa can't be good, the forsaken don't think it's good and the 29 people who used the TP in AoL weren't immortal.  We know at least 16 of them died and the other possible 13 were sealed away.  And Ishy went insane before he was even bound.

 

I think this theory of a Divine Power makes more sense then that "body swap" theory that keep floating around.  I know the books don't state there is a DP but they don't say there isn't one either.  I got this theory, along with the "hidden ajah" theory by looking at the whole of what we know then looking at where the gaps in the greater WoT world past and structure are, along with the rules.  Then formulate theories to explain the inconsistinties.

 

While a body swap theory is just because people think it's an injustice for Rand to be so banged up.

[moroten]

Who came up with this "divine power" thing anyways, i haven't found anything at all in the books to suggest that there is such a thing. First of all, where would the balance be?, without this DP, there is the one power to balance TP, when we add this DP, then there is suddenly another force to "the good guys". Secondly didn't it say somewhere in the books that the creator made the Wheel, the one power (male and female) to drive it, and then left?

 

It also states in tDR, when Moriane explains it to Perrin, that the creator is good, and DO is evil but the Wheel of Time is neither. 

 

The One Power, or True Source, is what drives the Wheel of Time, and any channeler can access it and use it for whatever purpose, good and ill, that they please.  And it is also divided into Saidin and Saidar, which work together and fight each other balancing itself.

 

The TP isn't divided into male and female halves, so a man and women can use it however.  It is only granted by the DO to further the DO's ends.  And the times it is used it is only used for pain and destruction.

 

It leaves the balance out of whack.

 

BTW I was the one who created the DP theory, it was a while ago.

 

And Luckers:

 

-Know who hasn't prayed to the creator?  Rand, Mat, and Perrin, Mat even commented that he wasn't the praying type.

-In the scheme of the universe the Choeden Kal isn't important.  And also because it was detroyed a chain of events happened that I think were supposed to happen.  Otherwise they wouldn't have happened.

-The saa can't be good, the forsaken don't think it's good and the 29 people who used the TP in AoL weren't immortal.  We know at least 16 of them died and the other possible 13 were sealed away.  And Ishy went insane before he was even bound.

 

I think this theory of a Divine Power makes more sense then that "body swap" theory that keep floating around.  I know the books don't state there is a DP but they don't say there isn't one either.  I got this theory, along with the "hidden ajah" theory by looking at the whole of what we know then looking at where the gaps in the greater WoT world past and structure are, along with the rules.  Then formulate theories to explain the inconsistinties.

 

While a body swap theory is just because people think it's an injustice for Rand to be so banged up.

 

The only viable argument you have for DP theory is that Min talks about balance and that it is needed in everything. And I dont hold it sufficient enough to prove your point. I think it is far more likely that the DO does whatever to tip the scale into his favor.

 

Rand, Perrin and Mat prays all the time. They continuosly ask the light for help in the early novels.

 

You on the other hand is avoiding all other counterarguments while only strenthing your own by speculating. That the TP is deadly is not true. It has a side effect that makes you go insane after awhile if you use it too much. TP is not the direct cause of death, the insanity is. Ishy used the TP freely for we dont know how long, he was never bound by the seal, so if you have to wield the TP for a longer time than what Ishy did for it in order to be deadly, I wouldnt consider it very deadly.

 

Like Luckers has stated more than once now, if the creator would take a more active role in the fight and really wanted the light to win it doesnt make sense that he would wait with the divine help untill after one of the most powerfull weapons were destroyed. If we follow your argument that the choendal was destroyed in a chain of evetns that were important and needed to happen you trip on your own toes. By aiding the light with DP the cleansing of saidin was not needed and again the most powerful weapon remains destroyed.

 

What does the body swap theory have to do with if the DP exist or not?

[Kaznen]

 

The only viable argument you have for DP theory is that Min talks about balance and that it is needed in everything. And I dont hold it sufficient enough to prove your point. I think it is far more likely that the DO does whatever to tip the scale into his favor.

 

Rand, Perrin and Mat prays all the time. They continuosly ask the light for help in the early novels.

 

You on the other hand is avoiding all other counterarguments while only strenthing your own by speculating. That the TP is deadly is not true. It has a side effect that makes you go insane after awhile if you use it too much. TP is not the direct cause of death, the insanity is. Ishy used the TP freely for we dont know how long, he was never bound by the seal, so if you have to wield the TP for a longer time than what Ishy did for it in order to be deadly, I wouldnt consider it very deadly.

Other things that are balanced:

 

Saidin balances Saidar

 

Men are stronger in Earth and Fire but weak in Air and water while women are stronger in Air and Water and weak in Fire and Earth.

 

Men are stronger overall but cannot link, while women are weaker in the power but can link.

 

Women can only link up 13, then they need a man expand the circle.

 

AS had dominate polictal power in Randland, and it showed with how women were the dominate gender.  AM come and threaten the AS power base by balancing the men's voice at the table.

 

Rand super altering chances where people who should have been killed are miraclessly saved or find sudden good fortune while an eqaul number die almost humoress deaths or have sudden ill fortune.

 

The evil of SL balancing the evil of the DO.

 

As for the whole praying thing:

Mat accompanied Tuon and Selucia to the purple wagon once the horse had been over to Metwyn, but there was to be no meal or game of stones with her that night.

 

"This is a night for prayer," she told him before going in with her maid.  "Do you know nothing toy?  The dead walking is a sign that Tarmon Gai'don is near."  He did not take this for one of her superstitions; after all, he had thought something like that himself.  He was not much for praying, yet he offered a samll one then and there.  Sometimes there was nothing else to do."

 

That is the closest one of the ta'veren has ever come to praying.  In the early books when they thought Ishy was the DO they denied him but never asked asked the creator for help.  The world prayed for an end to the DO and got Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  But they never asked for guidance, strength, power, ect. for there fight against the shadow.

 

And Ishy was bound, just not tightly.  Every 1000 years he was free for about 40 years then gets snaped back to the pit.  It's in the BWB.  And they way Mordin keeps using the TP he will only see the saa effectivly blinding him.

 

And the DP and body swap theories are unrelated.  I only used it because some people are convinced that Rand and Mordin will switch bodies, Rand kills Mordin, and Rand live the rest of his days in a young fit healthy body because they can't bear the idea of Rand living the rest of his life half blind and with one hand.  There is no basis to it othr then readers hope and wishes for "happilly ever after" for the good guys.  Kind of like the Moraine killed Asmodean theories.  Nothing to support that other then readers wishing Moraine got the last word.

[MikeRiley]

And Ishy was bound, just not tightly.  Every 1000 years he was free for about 40 years then gets snaped back to the pit.  It's in the BWB.  And they way Mordin keeps using the TP he will only see the saa effectivly blinding him.

 

That's a cosmetic effect of tapping into the True Power too much. He doesn't actually see the black flecks just as he didn't see fire as Ishamael.

 

There's no proof for a Divine Power, we've heard nothing for it and in this case just before the final book is published I would have to say hearing nothing about a Divine Power is proof against its existence. If it even existed, Rand would not use it because he would have to relearn everything and it's pretty clear he's about ready to open Tarmon Gai'don himself at the end of Knife of Dreams. He wouldn't have time.

[nnokwoodeye]

There is still the question of what exactly was in the eye of the world. That stuff ACTUALLY REGENERATED aginor body, if saidin could have done it, then he would have already been "fresh" when the group met him.

[Luckers]

It also states in tDR, when Moriane explains it to Perrin, that the creator is good, and DO is evil but the Wheel of Time is neither

 

What if Moiraine was wrong. She's hardly an expert--she's not even a White. I mean after all the Creator may not be malicious, but thats not saying he's the vision of goodness--his ambivelence and non-interference certainly suggests otherwise.

 

-In the scheme of the universe the Choeden Kal isn't important.  And also because it was detroyed a chain of events happened that I think were supposed to happen.  Otherwise they wouldn't have happened.

 

In the scheme of the universe the Choedan Kal isn't important? Do you remember the various stated quotes about the fear the Shadow had of the Choedan Kal? Or perhaps you'll recall Moridin not caring if Kisman and the others killed Rand or not because it was obtaining the Choedan Kal that was important.

 

I mean really, the most powerful sa'angreal by a LONG shot being destroyed not mattering in a war? A war upon the result of which the fate of the univers rests...? Really?

 

As for your fatalism, did it not occur to you that the Creator did not step in--not because it was supposed to happen, but simply because he didn't give a crap? That, at least, is supported by the books themselves. This airy-fairy notion of the man up stairs saving the day is completely unsupported.

 

-The saa can't be good, the forsaken don't think it's good and the 29 people who used the TP in AoL weren't immortal.  We know at least 16 of them died and the other possible 13 were sealed away.  And Ishy went insane before he was even bound.

 

Firstly, whats the relevance of that? Secondly, though unimportant, those 29 were supposedly immortal. We didn't see them live long enough for it to be proven, but that was the Dark Ones PR statement.

 

I think this theory of a Divine Power makes more sense then that "body swap" theory that keep floating around.  I know the books don't state there is a DP but they don't say there isn't one either.  I got this theory, along with the "hidden ajah" theory by looking at the whole of what we know then looking at where the gaps in the greater WoT world past and structure are, along with the rules.  Then formulate theories to explain the inconsistinties.

 

The bodyswap and the DP theories don't even touch on the same issues so im not sure how they are related--but at least the bodyswap actually has support in the text--i mean, whether you agree with the interpretation or not, its there.

 

While a body swap theory is just because people think it's an injustice for Rand to be so banged up.

 

And the DP is just because you want support for the God Hypothesis. Besides, no, the bodyswap was to answer the conflicting requirements of the various prophecies around Rand's death.

 

Women can only link up 13, then they need a man expand the circle.

 

Just pointing out, but thats not balance--26 women to 1 man? 39 to 2?

 

And the DP and body swap theories are unrelated.  I only used it because some people are convinced that Rand and Mordin will switch bodies, Rand kills Mordin, and Rand live the rest of his days in a young fit healthy body because they can't bear the idea of Rand living the rest of his life half blind and with one hand.  There is no basis to it othr then readers hope and wishes for "happilly ever after" for the good guys.  Kind of like the Moraine killed Asmodean theories.  Nothing to support that other then readers wishing Moraine got the last word.

 

You realise thats not true right? I mean, cool, ive been a bit harsh on you with this so you want to get back at me--i understand. But you don't think your actually correct do you?

 

Coz if you do then you need to go an re-read the theory.

 

There is still the question of what exactly was in the eye of the world. That stuff ACTUALLY REGENERATED aginor body, if saidin could have done it, then he would have already been "fresh" when the group met him.

 

There are other occurences like this--RJ stated that thos that start channeling later in life de-age to their middle years. So clearly we do know that the One Power can cause cell regeneration.

 

My guess is what happened with Aginor is a combination of him using way too much of the power, and the immortality that the Dark One gave him.