Rand & Lews Therin (a theory)

[mb]

In Shadow Rising when Rand was talking with Lanfear, that was the first moment Rand a Lews Therin memory emerged.

Throughout Fires of Heaven, Lews Therin at times spoke through Rand.

Since Lord of Chaos, Lews Therin for the most part talked to Rand through Rand's thoughts.

Several times Lews Therin channeled through Rand.

 

I think Lews Therin took Rand's body, probably when Rand was born or shortly after.  The discussion in Shadar Logoth in Eye of the World supports this.

From the passage (Thom speaking, bold is mine)::

"The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly."

 

[Gentled Ben]

I'm gonna go with the theme of the books, including the one oddly titled, "The Dragon Reborn," instead.

 

"The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly."

[MikeRiley]

What Thom said was more a foreshadowing of what happened to Fain, I think.

[Jethro]

I personally dont think Lews Therin "took" Rands body as such. I I believe what Semirhage said in KoD about Lews Therin, and I think that as Rands madness progresses the barrier between him and Lews Therin weakens. Thats why at first only memories, then the voice, then mannerims and the ability to draw. And as the barrier between them thins it becomes easier for Lews Therin to reach through and seize Saidin.

[Mr Ares]

I think Lews Therin took Rand's body, probably when Rand was born or shortly after.

Thinking can be dangerous and should only be done by trained professionals. We know what we're doing. Also, Rand is Lews Therin reborn, his soul in a new body.

[Casco]

LTT and Rand is the same soul, but not the same personality. LTT cant "take" Rands body, he did have it from the birth :)

The day Rand finaly se that LTT is himself with other memories, experiences and stuff, he will be prepeared for TG. It will be tuff to "merge" a cheep herder thinking of things with a Lord thinking of things, and bad experiences though.

Dragon reborn is LTT and Rand, with different experienses, in different time. The experiences did shape his personalies depending on his life as a Lord, and as a cheep herder in two rivers.

[CUBAREY]

What Thom said was more a foreshadowing of what happened to Fain, I think.

 

Actually its a direct foreshadowing of the DO bringing back several of the killed Chosen in different bodies. In Thom's words its something not to be talked about because it is evil.

[Kison]

I personally dont think Lews Therin "took" Rands body as such. I I believe what Semirhage said in KoD about Lews Therin, and I think that as Rands madness progresses the barrier between him and Lews Therin weakens. Thats why at first only memories, then the voice, then mannerims and the ability to draw. And as the barrier between them thins it becomes easier for Lews Therin to reach through and seize Saidin.

 

I agree with this, mainly because of the timing. It seems convenient that LTT began gaining control around books five(When Mat called out 'Lews Therin' and Rand responded) and six(where the voices became prominent) - which is the point in Rand's life just after he began to channel more often(he began to teach himself in book three).

[CUBAREY]

I agree with this, mainly because of the timing. It seems convenient that LTT began gaining control around books five(When Mat called out 'Lews Therin' and Rand responded) and six(where the voices became prominent) - which is the point in Rand's life just after he began to channel more often(he began to teach himself in book three).

 

Rand crossing Flows of balefire with Moridin is a closer time fit and has the advantage of also explaining the visions of the "third" personality which Rand and LTT see.

[Jethro]

I think Lews Therin took Rand's body, probably when Rand was born or shortly after.

Thinking can be dangerous and should only be done by trained professionals. We know what we're doing.

 

We could also leave being an areshole to you as well Ares since you seem to be a trained professional in that as well. All mb was doing was voicing a thought. You're just jealous since you arent clever enough to have your own theories.

[MikeRiley]

Most of Mr Ares' sarcastic/smartass remarks in his posts are funny. Try not to take it too seriously, mb probably didn't.

[mb]

The madness to me does not explain Lews Therin channeling through Rand.

The madness/taint would only account for only the voice, nothing else;  Cadsuane's very first discussion with Rand seems to indicate this.  Cadsuane does not mention anything else.

 

As for the timing, Rand becoming acquainted with things Lews Therin would remember I think would be the main cause/causes for Lews Therin to emerge.

 

[MikeRiley]

It could be a part of the madness. The voices are considered an advanced state of madness and Rand's gone a bit farther since. The Lews Therin in him could easily take control as Rand weakens.

[Jethro]

The madness/taint would only account for only the voice, nothing else;  Cadsuane's very first discussion with Rand seems to indicate this.  Cadsuane does not mention anything else.

 

And Semirhage, who was informed by Graendal the expert, said that the voice being real indicates an especially rare type of madness. Its unlikely that Cadsuane would have encountered one who heard a real voice like Rand does. The madness doesnt only account for the voice, it accounts for why Rand is acting more and more like Lews Therin and not himself; because the gap that seperates them is getting thinner.

[mb]

Another thing: Rand gotten Lews Therin's abilities of drawing & playing the flute.

The Fain & Mordeth merge seems to indicate that new abilities are not from the Taint since Fain is not a channeler.

 

Supposing that Rand acting more like Lews Therin is from the madness/taint, the Cleansing would have caused the gap to be at one level.

The effects of the Taint were not removed, but it prevented male channelers from getting more insane.

 

[bluecole]

I think rand was playing the flute before the voices.  You might be htinking of thumbing his ear at hot chicks.

 

B.

[mb]

I think rand was playing the flute before the voices.  You might be htinking of thumbing his ear at hot chicks.

 

Lews Therin's humming at hot chicks was not what I had in mind.

One of Rand's thoughts when playing the flute (Winter's Heart Chapter 25) was what I had in mind.

A correction: Rand learned a tune from Lews Therin.

 

[MikeRiley]

That's not the same as the Fain and Mordeth merge because Fain and Mordeth are two entirely different people at first. Rand and Lews Therin are the same but with different personalities. The madness is causing his old personality to speak in his head, seemingly with a life of its own. As the madness increased the barrier between the two of them weakened and he started remembering more of the old life, which would come in fits when "Lews Therin" takes over. Sort of like a split personality.

[Jethro]

Another thing: Rand gotten Lews Therin's abilities of drawing & playing the flute.

The Fain & Mordeth merge seems to indicate that new abilities are not from the Taint since Fain is not a channeler.

 

Fain had been touched by the Great Lord, altered to make him more than a normal Darkfriend. And Mordeth had been corrputed by the Shadar Logoth evil, making him more than any man and a wild card in comparison to anything else we have seen. Fain and Mordeth merging is nothing at all like Rand having a type of madness that connects him to his past life.

 

And, Rand hearing Lews Therin isnt just down to the Taint, since Rands duty has done its faor share of damage to his mental state as well. Since Graendal had encountered others like Rand (ala Semirhage, "even Graendal had trouble reintegrating someone who heard a real voice") we can gather from this that the Taint is definitely not the only cause of this type of madness; Graendal was bound for 3000 years and so she would have encountered the other(s) with this type of madness before the Taint came into existance.

[spothistto]

Then again, they are Forsaken. Semi might have said that in order to dishearten Rand's followers. Hearing a real voice in one's head might mean something else entirely.

[MikeRiley]

I don't know, Cadsuane mentioned it as a form of madness as well. Semirhage probably did say it to dishearten Rand's followers but she had no reason to lie about it as well. Sometimes the truth can do more damage. Now they all know the Light's champion is mad.

[Jethro]

Then again, they are Forsaken. Semi might have said that in order to dishearten Rand's followers. Hearing a real voice in one's head might mean something else entirely.

 

I wrote that theory off because everything Semirhage said fits too well. Of course, it is like a Chosen to say something to dishearten Rand and that lot but I think it was when she said "I understand the descent into terminal madness can be...abrupt." But that comment doesnt really apply to Rand if you ask me. Rand isnt terminally mad, and thats the one comment she said that doesnt tie in with the rest of both what she said and what we have seen of Rands sanity issues.

 

Nah, she was telling the truth I reckon. It fits too well with what we've seen and what we've seen is Rand being paranoid about hearing a voice that reacts to what he has seen and heard and its even taught him stuff with the Power, taught him things that actually work. A false voice wouldnt have, and there is no more realistic reason for Rand hearing LTT. Theres the option of going off typical fantasy and saying Rand hears the voice because hes the Champion of the Light, but typical fantasy wasnt RJs style, he had a set of rules he went off, and LTT being a form of madness fits too well with what weve seen.

 

Please dont take it as if I am stating fact, just saying how I think it is. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Mr Ares]

Then again, they are Forsaken. Semi might have said that in order to dishearten Rand's followers. Hearing a real voice in one's head might mean something else entirely.

Almost everything she said, we can back up, and know to be true. And disheartening Rand's followers would be a motivation for the truth as well. We really have no reason to think she is lying.