The most despicable character

[Gentled Ben]

No, she is totally self-absorbed and a see you in tee. So far, (i'm on book 5) all she wants is revenge on Moraine. If not for Moraine everyone dies. I feel sorry for Lan, who is one of the smartest and most likeable characters, who has been forced by Robert Jordan to be in love with her.

Are we reading the same books? There's not another version out there, is there?

 

In the early books Nynaeve's only goals were to protect the Emonds Fielders and get even with Moraine. She says this in her thoughts multiple times. An example being when Egwene asks her why she's coming to the Tower if she doesn't have to (she survived her first channeling), she thinks to herself to learn as much of the Power as she can so she can protect them and deal with Moraine.

 

Towards the middle of the series the reasons turn into Healing and the Yellow Ajah.

 

So, does the willingness to ungergo years of hard training and humility in order to oppose an Aes Sedai in defense of her friends, the self-absorbed part of her, or the part of her that makes her the c word?  ???

[MikeRiley]

I'd say both.

[adverge]

 

Morgase had to realise that if she went to the Whitecloaks she'd end up with a Whitecloak army in Andor.  That's what they always tried to do in other countries after all.

 

If she had gone to the White Tower, despite not trusting them very much and them not having much of an army, she could have gotten advice on where to go and what to do.  Elaida was her advisor for many years and would certainly support Morgase back on the throne of Andor.  She'd have probably done everything she could to see her there, and I think everyone must agree that Morgase would have been much safer in Tar Valon than Amadicia.

 

Going to Amadicia is completely illogical, with the laws of the country and the demands of the Whitecloaks.  Even just recovering from Complusion surely she, or one of her entourage, would have seen this and done everything to talk her out of it.  Given how Tallanvor is, I could have seen him tying her to a horse and simply taking her there.

[deathgate]

1. Jaichim Carridin - let his family members be tortured because of his weakness.

 

2. Sevanna - ruined her whole tribe plus others because of greed and ambition.

 

3. Fain - tortures darkfriends and innocents alike as well as causing Perrin and Rand much grief.

 

4. Liandrin - the worst of many black ajah only out for them selves.

 

5. Suroth - another who will do anything for ambition.

[MikeRiley]

Speaking as a somewhat-all-knowing reader, had Morgase gone to the White Tower she'd have been bogged down there on the wrong side of a siege and the White Tower wouldn't be able to help her anyway. This would also have ended Gawyn's revenge subplot and Elayne would have known of Morgase being alive soon after Egwene was captured. Galad wouldn't be the new Children of the Light leader, either, having no reason to challenge Valda. Since she wouldn't have been captured with Faile, that red flag wouldn't have been moving oddly in their collapsed building and Rolan and co would never have saved them. Perrin wouldn't have been able to find her in time and the rest of the Aiel force would have surrounded him a few hours after the battle.

 

Morgase admitted to herself that it was stupid not to ask the White Tower for help but she couldn't bring herself to trust the people that pretty much kidnapped her daughter and heir to the throne. She couldn't go to the local lords because there's not much chance they would support her in reclaiming Caemlyn. She went to the Children of the Light because that was the quickest way to obtain an army to remake her claim for the throne with. She knew they would help because of the ties they would have on a nation they were not welcome in. When she decided on them she also started making plans to remove them from Andor.

 

Not the right decision, but she was still somewhat under the effects of Rahvin's compulsion and didn't know much about what was going on in the world lately as a side effect.

[Mr Ares]

In the early books Nynaeve's only goals were to protect the Emonds Fielders and get even with Moraine. She says this in her thoughts multiple times. An example being when Egwene asks her why she's coming to the Tower if she doesn't have to (she survived her first channeling), she thinks to herself to learn as much of the Power as she can so she can protect them and deal with Moraine.

No. There is more to her than that throughout, including her desire to Heal people (her desire to learn more of it has certainly been apparent by book 5). Also, her heroism and general selflessness. She is certainly not self-absorbed.

[Emily_Sedai]

All in all, I think Morgase made the best choice she could out of a whole bunch of bad options.

Yes, when she abdicated. Andor fell into ruin under her reign, regardless of the Compulsion, and having alienated all of her friends, to bring in a foreign invader and re-establish her control through force of arms only to become a puppet state of another kingdom, was a selfish and terrible idea. The fact that she could gather no support whatsoever should have been a clue-by-four to her thick, besotted with the boy-toy-du-juor head, but being made of the same stuff as her daughter, it was, of course, insufficient to dissuade her from self-centered folly. All hail Morgase, now just a maid and failing just as miserably at that.

 

EDIT: But does that make her despicable, no. Characters like Carridin, Fain, and Sevanna are despicable; Morgase is just a self-centered hussy, a lousy maid, and a failed ruler.

 

So, in essence you're saying that Morgase should have gone quietly into the good night, leaving her nation and her people in the hands of a man trying to set himself up as the first king of Andor?  That's what your advocating when you say that she was an idiot for bringing foreign soldiers into the country.  What should she have done?  (and just to say going to the Aes Sedai is kinda silly...  she was compelled to hate Aes Sedai by Rhavin for quite a bit, and we already know that the affects of compulsion can linger, as I said earlier.)   

 

Also, have to address your statement of 'regardless of compulsion.'  Regardless of something that literally steals your will and has someone else making decisions for you?  Do you really think it was Morgase who was responsible for alienating her allies and banishing the guards loyal to her to outposts?  Do you also think it was Morgase who wanted to ban Aes Sedai in Andor?  Was it Morgase who went from wearing high necked Andoran gowns to something a little more...  liberal? 

 

I think Morgase definitely deserves a little bit of slack for the situation she found herself in...  we all know the Forsaken are idiots and all, but Rhavin at least seemed a little more together than some of the others :)       

[Mr Ares]

That's what your advocating when you say that she was an idiot for bringing foreign soldiers into the country.

What way of recovering Andor was there that didn't involve foreign soldiers? The AS would have wanted something, even if they could help. And it's not like she just decided to give Niall what he wanted. She held out for as long as she could, and even then planned on getting rid of the Whitecloaks as soon as she could (although she recognised that it would take time).

What should she have done?

Indeed. She only had bad choices open to her.

(and just to say going to the Aes Sedai is kinda silly...   she was compelled to hate Aes Sedai by Rhavin for quite a bit, and we already know that the affects of compulsion can linger, as I said earlier.)

Not to mention she had reason enough not to trust them, even without Rahvin.

[MikeRiley]

In the early books Nynaeve's only goals were to protect the Emonds Fielders and get even with Moraine. She says this in her thoughts multiple times. An example being when Egwene asks her why she's coming to the Tower if she doesn't have to (she survived her first channeling), she thinks to herself to learn as much of the Power as she can so she can protect them and deal with Moraine.

No. There is more to her than that throughout, including her desire to Heal people (her desire to learn more of it has certainly been apparent by book 5). Also, her heroism and general selflessness. She is certainly not self-absorbed.

 

Her desire to Heal was what replaced the two reasons I mentioned. If not for her hatred of Moraine and Egwene going to the Tower, she would not have gone.

[CUBAREY]

Her desire to Heal was what replaced the two reasons I mentioned. If not for her hatred of Moraine and Egwene going to the Tower, she would not have gone.

 

Actually the desire to learn from the Yellows to more effectively heal was always one of the reasons she gave for justifying going to Tar Valon.

[Gentled Ben]

All in all, I think Morgase made the best choice she could out of a whole bunch of bad options.

Yes, when she abdicated. Andor fell into ruin under her reign, regardless of the Compulsion, and having alienated all of her friends, to bring in a foreign invader and re-establish her control through force of arms only to become a puppet state of another kingdom, was a selfish and terrible idea. The fact that she could gather no support whatsoever should have been a clue-by-four to her thick, besotted with the boy-toy-du-juor head, but being made of the same stuff as her daughter, it was, of course, insufficient to dissuade her from self-centered folly. All hail Morgase, now just a maid and failing just as miserably at that.

 

EDIT: But does that make her despicable, no. Characters like Carridin, Fain, and Sevanna are despicable; Morgase is just a self-centered hussy, a lousy maid, and a failed ruler.

 

So, in essence you're saying that Morgase should have gone quietly into the good night, leaving her nation and her people in the hands of a man trying to set himself up as the first king of Andor?  That's what your advocating when you say that she was an idiot for bringing foreign soldiers into the country.  What should she have done?  (and just to say going to the Aes Sedai is kinda silly...   she was compelled to hate Aes Sedai by Rhavin for quite a bit, and we already know that the affects of compulsion can linger, as I said earlier.)   

 

Also, have to address your statement of 'regardless of compulsion.'  Regardless of something that literally steals your will and has someone else making decisions for you?  Do you really think it was Morgase who was responsible for alienating her allies and banishing the guards loyal to her to outposts?  Do you also think it was Morgase who wanted to ban Aes Sedai in Andor?  Was it Morgase who went from wearing high necked Andoran gowns to something a little more...  liberal? 

 

I think Morgase definitely deserves a little bit of slack for the situation she found herself in...  we all know the Forsaken are idiots and all, but Rhavin at least seemed a little more together than some of the others :)       

 

Yes, I think she should have quietly gone into the good night, or done as she did and abdicated. It does not matter whether or not she was in control of herself when she did those things, what matters is that she did those things, and that is everyone's perception. All of her allies that she flogged and banished believe that Morgase flogged and banished them, and that is critically important. Because of that, she has no support whatsoever. No- one, absolutely no- one of any consequence in Andor wants to see her on the Lion Throne, and that makes her the second worst possible choice for ruler behind Rahvin, but she does not consider that. It does not occur to her to abdicate  and throw her support behind any of the Houses that she banished during her Compulsion, or any House, really. It only occurs to her that she is the best and only choice for Andor, despite the fact that it is in ruins, and she is both blamed for that ruin and hated by her countrymen.

 

To hand her country to the Whitecloaks simply to see herself back on the throne with whatever limited power Amador allows her to have, is nothing more than an exclamation point at the end of her failed rule. The situation is so bad, that Elayne cannot scrape together enough support for the throne and has to toss Andor into civil war to ensure that the Lion Throne remains in the ever-so-capable hands of House Trakand. <_<

 

Anyone not sworn to the Shadow makes a better choice for ruler at that particular instance than Morgase. If the lingering effects of the Compulsion are such that she needs you to use it in order to excuse her poor decisions post-flight from Caemlyn, then those effects are such that she continues to be unfit to rule.

 

[CUBAREY]

The situation is so bad, that Elayne cannot scrape together enough support for the throne and has to toss Andor into civil war to ensure that the Lion Throne remains in the ever-so-capable hands of House Trakand. <_<

 

Actually there would have been a civil war without Elayne pressing her claim. The only way that might have prevented a civil war would have been for Elayne to throw her support for What's her name the "Aunt" who heads a different house and was Morgase's first backer when she first claimed the crown. And this lady purposely refused any overture that she should be made Queen. Moreover, for Morgase to back any candidate would under the circumstances been the kiss of death to their candidancy. Morgase was looking at the short term implications. Rahvin had been overthrown and killed by Rand and most of the other houses were fawning after Rand. She saw the King of Amadacia as a bad choice but the only one available to her. She was willing to make a deal with the devil (the whitecloaks) because the other alternatives== permitting Rand which as she saw it had usurped the crown or any of the viable other alternatives among the Andorans were even worse.

[adverge]

 

Morgase could have gone to the most powerful man in the world, the Dragon Reborn, for help.  She does keep saying she believes in the prophecies and would support him as the Dragon Reborn.  She must realise shortly after leaving Caemlyn that Rand controls Tear and Cairhein and that perhaps he would support her getting back onto the throne.  She has to realise that if she supports him as the Dragon Reborn to save the world that perhaps, just perhaps, he could help her save Andor.

 

There were many, many options open to her.  She just rand blindly into the Whitecloaks, and then her storyline basically sputtered out until she became Faile's maid (I had forgotten about that, currently rereading, well relistening, to the books and am on Lord of Chaos).

 

 

[spothistto]

The Creator, for creating a world that repeats itself over and over again. And then abandoning it to the Dark One, who was bound to get out of his prison. Then the Creator threw in a Dragon and then he sits down and watches the world as we do a good television show. Having a great laugh too, I bet. He does all that, when he is strong enough to imprison the Dark One and end the misery of people. That's just hateful.

 

But from the list I would choose Eleida (and Sevanna if two choices would be possible). They in their ambition to rule the world (Eleida with Rand chained to her corner and Sevanna with Rand in her bed) have hindered his plans. And the following point makes Eleida slightly more despicable. She claims she fights for the Light, but all her actions have sabotaged Rand's war. Sevanna on the other hand wants Rand just for herself, to rule the Wetlands. In that sense she is honest at least, she doesn't give a damn about fighting the Shadow, unless of course it will try to ruin her plans.

 

In addition to them I think all women in the books are slightly irritating for thinking they know what's best for everybody. But they ponder what is the best for so long that in that time men have made all the decisions. Like Moraine in Dragon Reborn. Rand did the right thing and went after his destiny, while the woman. Randland would be much better for it if women just stood back and let the men do their thing. All their meddling does is bring more chaos.

[MikeRiley]

The situation is so bad, that Elayne cannot scrape together enough support for the throne and has to toss Andor into civil war to ensure that the Lion Throne remains in the ever-so-capable hands of House Trakand. <_<

 

Somewhere in Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams Elayne said if Dyelin announced her claim for the throne she would support her, to avoid a war.

 

If Elayne didn't take Caemlyn when she did, Arymila would have taken it and there would have been a war to remove her from the city. Dyelin would have claimed it herself just to keep the other from the throne, we might have seen a 3-4 way war, as Arymila didn't have Naen and Arawn until after Elayne's supporters captured them and tried transferring them to Caemlyn.

[Thorum]

The Creator, for creating a world that repeats itself over and over again. And then abandoning it to the Dark One, who was bound to get out of his prison. Then the Creator threw in a Dragon and then he sits down and watches the world as we do a good television show. Having a great laugh too, I bet. He does all that, when he is strong enough to imprison the Dark One and end the misery of people. That's just hateful.

 

Ever heard of a certain Robert Jordan? This describes very well what he showed us of his character.

[Gentled Ben]

The situation is so bad, that Elayne cannot scrape together enough support for the throne and has to toss Andor into civil war to ensure that the Lion Throne remains in the ever-so-capable hands of House Trakand. <_<

 

Somewhere in Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams Elayne said if Dyelin announced her claim for the throne she would support her, to avoid a war.

 

If Elayne didn't take Caemlyn when she did, Arymila would have taken it and there would have been a war to remove her from the city. Dyelin would have claimed it herself just to keep the other from the throne, we might have seen a 3-4 way war, as Arymila didn't have Naen and Arawn until after Elayne's supporters captured them and tried transferring them to Caemlyn.

 

All of which can be laid at the feet of Morgase, during whose watch, Andor fell into ruin. Having wrecked the nation, I still do not see how it is a good idea for her to bring a foreign invader in and strip the land of it's sovereignty in order to see herself on the throne again. I stand by what I said; she is a failed ruler whose best move was to abdicate.

[spothistto]

 

Ever heard of a certain Robert Jordan? This describes very well what he showed us of his character.

 

The first paragraphs was intended to be sarcastic. Didn't do the best job I see.

Without the Creator (RJ) we wouldn't have this wonderful god's gift we know as the Wheel of Time.

[adverge]

Robert Jordan, sadly enough, was already done in, so we cannot logically include him in this list.