Burning Out

[Jethro]

Quote from: Jethro on February 15, 2009, 07:43:47 AM

RJ's comment about chance being involved seems to only be looking at Moridins body being young and imposing, not the fact that the body was there or that it is strong enough. RJ himself said Moridins body was there for "some other reason." My thought is that when that body was found the Great Lord buzzed off how strong it was and had his lads put it in a stasis box.

I don't recall him saying any such thing. I suggest you provide a quote. What RJ has said is that the only way to be immediately reincarnated is if there is a body on hand for some other reason, but he doesn't say any specific character got lucky in this way, nor is there an indication that Moridin was brought back immediately. He died in TDR, and was next seen in ACoS. Quite a gap between them. Also, suggesting that the body was put in a stasis box - why? RJ specifically said that the Shadow does not keep suitable bodies. If you die, you have to wait until they find out, because there aren't any on tap

 

I suggest you read my posts before disagreeing with me Ares. Ive posted this passage twice already. Maybe you might actually read it this time, and acknowledge the words of RJ.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

There. I made it easier for you to see this time old man. READ IT! RJs words do not say that Moridins body was there by chance, he said in plain english that to be instantly reincarnated it requires pure chance that a body was available. Then, in the next sentence, he says the death [of Ishamael] occured "when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason." the only other time RJ mentions chance was that Moridins body is young and imposing. He does not say the body was there by chance, only that the body has the extra benefit of being young and imposing. Did you manage to see all that Ares, or did selective reading kick in again?

 

Tom Therin, Cyndane was given the weaker one because the strongest ones were given to Ishamael and Aginor. Since resources are limited for the Shadow theonly bodies of considerable strength had already been used for the others. Cyndane was introduced after Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar.

[Tyrell]

Then, in the next sentence, he says the death [of Ishamael] occured "when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason."

 

No he didn't. I don't know exactly the level of sophistry required to twist "the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance" into "Ishamael died and was reincarnated immediately by pure chance". He says that it is chance that Ishy gets a nice looking body, then leaves the subject of Ishy and goes on to generalities.

[Thor]

Made up number divided by made up number=result that is a long way from proof of your argument. Also, you mean seven tenths (7/10). Not 10-sevenths. Unless you mean ten to the seventh power? Which should be 107. But that would be 10x10x10x10x10x10x10=10,000,000, surely? So is Cyndane ten million times Alivia's strength?

 

madwe up numbers? read the paragraph and come back talk again.  those numbers were conservative, i wouldn't be surprised if it should be closer to 1.5/3.

 

and yes, it is 10-seventh, as in 10 over 7, if you are worthless at maths/arithmetics, don't come here with your disgraceful nonsense please.

[agaga]

Made up number divided by made up number=result that is a long way from proof of your argument. Also, you mean seven tenths (7/10). Not 10-sevenths. Unless you mean ten to the seventh power? Which should be 107. But that would be 10x10x10x10x10x10x10=10,000,000, surely? So is Cyndane ten million times Alivia's strength?

 

madwe up numbers? read the paragraph and come back talk again.  those numbers were conservative, i wouldn't be surprised if it should be closer to 1.5/3.

 

and yes, it is 10-seventh, as in 10 over 7, if you are worthless at maths/arithmetics, don't come here with your disgraceful nonsense please.

That's an improper fraction.... 10

                                7????

 

You have to finish the problem making it a mixed number 1 and 3 over 7 unless my math is wrong....

                               

[Dmitri]

madwe up numbers? read the paragraph and come back talk again.  those numbers were conservative, i wouldn't be surprised if it should be closer to 1.5/3.

 

and yes, it is 10-seventh, as in 10 over 7, if you are worthless at maths/arithmetics, don't come here with your disgraceful nonsense please.

 

If you refer to Cyndane/Alivia without angreal strength ratio (in your numbers, which I don't agree with), then 10/7 (ten seventh) is correct.

All this strenghts' comparison is arguable, everyone has his own criteria.  :-\

[benr]

 

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

 

 

Luckers, I don't agree on your interpretation of the quote.  It clearly says to me that Nynaeve took them back to less than half of their original strength when she healed them, and if she tried again she could take them back to one half or 2/3 of their original strength.  It seems very cut and dried. 

[MikeRiley]

She says maybe she wasn't healed all the way the first time. That means she got less than half her original strength back. In that quote she's pleading with Nynaeve to try the weave again because it might increase her strength back to what it was before she was stilled, or failing that at least make her stronger.

 

She is referring to the gap between no strength and her old strength when she talks of half and two thirds. Remember, Nynaeve didn't give her Saidar, she just healed being stilled. Note her saying "what we were", this part is talking about when they could last channel. For it to mean anything else would mean she wants half or two thirds of nothing.

 

Or think of it this way, when Nynaeve healed her, she was healed to somewhere less than 50% of her old strength - we know she speaks of her old strength in this because she talks about her standing with Aes Sedai in terms of how she used to be with them. Remember a bit after when she's explaining (in her apology I believe) that with becoming Aes Sedai again they are again ranked by their strength in the power - a fact that didn't matter when they couldn't channel at all. Anyway, she's asking Nynaeve to try again because maybe it'll take her from whatever number that was to 75% or even 50% failing that so that she's not a glorified Aes Sedai servant. She's not saying she wants Nynaeve to try and give her another 75% of the strength she's still missing. She just wants what she had before back.

 

But honestly, does it even matter? Siuan thinks if Nynaeve does the weave again it might increase her strength. It doesn't matter whether she means a percentage of the missing strength or a percentage of her original strength. She just wants it increased so her standing among Aes Sedai isn't so low and that's all she's asking for.

[Dmitri]

She says maybe she wasn't healed all the way the first time. That means she got less than half her original strength back. In that quote she's pleading with Nynaeve to try the weave again because it might increase her strength back to what it was before she was stilled, or failing that at least make her stronger.

 

She is referring to the gap between no strength and her old strength when she talks of half and two thirds. Remember, Nynaeve didn't give her Saidar, she just healed being stilled. Note her saying "what we were", this part is talking about when they could last channel. For it to mean anything else would mean she wants half or two thirds of nothing.

 

Or think of it this way, when Nynaeve healed her, she was healed to somewhere less than 50% of her old strength - we know she speaks of her old strength in this because she talks about her standing with Aes Sedai in terms of how she used to be with them. Remember a bit after when she's explaining (in her apology I believe) that with becoming Aes Sedai again they are again ranked by their strength in the power - a fact that didn't matter when they couldn't channel at all. Anyway, she's asking Nynaeve to try again because maybe it'll take her from whatever number that was to 75% or even 50% failing that so that she's not a glorified Aes Sedai servant. She's not saying she wants Nynaeve to try and give her another 75% of the strength she's still missing. She just wants what she had before back.

 

I argee with you here completely. I never could read that passage the way Luckers did (although he is really good in argumenting  ;)).

Siuan was stilled, then Ny Healed her - to a less then 50% level. Then Siuan asked Ny to try and Heal her up to 2/3 or at least a half of what they were - not to add to their current level.

 

But honestly, does it even matter? Siuan thinks if Nynaeve does the weave again it might increase her strength. It doesn't matter whether she means a percentage of the missing strength or a percentage of her original strength. She just wants it increased so her standing among Aes Sedai isn't so low and that's all she's asking for.

 

It matters on this Forum  :)

A few theories are based on this difference (e.g. Cyndane/Lanfear being stilled or not, etc.)

[Mr Ares]

So far the only evidence you have that Cyndane was Healed by a woman is her reduction in strength.  Your logic states that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was.

So far the only evidence to contradict it is non-existant. Therefore, every bit of evidence we have supports my conclusion.

Yes your theory is logical based on a portion of the evidence

It is based on all the evidence. There may be facts that have not come to light, but given the facts that we currently have available, the evidfence, there is only one logical conclusion. Anything else is unsupported and unsupportable, at best, provably wrong at worst.

If when AMoL comes out and you're right, yay for you. If I'm right, yay for me.

If later evidence comes to light, I may have to adjust my conclusion to fit it. My conclusion, as it stands, is the best available. If it later proves wrong, then I will at least have had the support of the known facts. You will not. I'm right, or I'm wrong with authority. Either way, yay for me.

 

I suggest you read my posts before disagreeing with me Mr Ares. Ive posted this passage twice already. Maybe you might actually read it this time, and acknowledge the words of RJ.

You have posted that before, and I have disagreed with your conclusion as to what it means. I suggest you read my post. The passage doesn't say what you want it to say.

 

Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

Nothing to do with Moridin.

 

There. I made it easier for you to see this time old man. READ IT! RJs words do not say that Moridins body was there by chance, he said in plain english that to be instantly reincarnated it requires pure chance that a body was available. Then, in the next sentence, he says the death [of Ishamael] occured "when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason." the only other time RJ mentions chance was that Moridins body is young and imposing. He does not say the body was there by chance, only that the body has the extra benefit of being young and imposing. Did you manage to see all that Ares, or did selective reading kick in again?

I suggest you try reading this time, you wet behind the ears pup. RJ's words do not say what you want them to say. No matter how much you lie, no matter how much you distort the facts to support your conclusion, no matter how much outright nonsense you spout, it will still not say what you would like it to. Simple choice - abide by what RJ said, or accept the words of some idiot on the internet over the guy who wrote the damn series. I will always - always - support the evidence, and support what the author said over some half-baked, idiotic interpretation. He said, in the section I left, quite clearly - and I have pointed this out to you several times before now, boy - that you will only be reincarnated immediately if there was a suitable body on hand for some other reason. We have no reason to believe that Ishamael was. We have no reason to believe that Ishamael was referred to in the part. It was a generality. It is utterly ridiculous to twist those plain and simple and completely clear words to support such an erroneous conclusion. That bolded part, that is the key difference. There is no mention of Ishamael there. No mention belongs there. It is wrong. Now, you're a fine one to talk about selective reading, child. How many times do I have to disprove you argument before it sinks in? Because it has been. More than once. And what makes you think that the rules regarding my name don't apply to you? It's Mr Ares to you, and don't you forget it.

 

Made up number divided by made up number=result that is a long way from proof of your argument. Also, you mean seven tenths (7/10). Not 10-sevenths. Unless you mean ten to the seventh power? Which should be 107. But that would be 10x10x10x10x10x10x10=10,000,000, surely? So is Cyndane ten million times Alivia's strength?

made up numbers?

Yes, made up numbers. They were made up in the last thread you tried to argue this in, and they are made up here.

read the paragraph and come back talk again.

Maybe you should try reading it for once, Thor. Seriously, read what you wrote. Let it sink in. Then see if you still want to post more drivel.

 

and yes, it is 10-seventh, as in 10 over 7, if you are worthless at maths/arithmetics, don't come here with your disgraceful nonsense please.

10 over 7? 10/7? See, you said 0.72. Less than one. 2/2 is one. 4/4 is one. 7/7 is one. Anything more than that is one and a bit - 3/2 is 1 1/2, 5/4 is 1 1/4, 10/7 is 1 3/7, which works out to 1.something, not 0.something. See, I do remember something about basic maths, even if you don't. 7/10 is what you want, seven tenths. 0.7. Now, unless you want to revise your earlier assessment to 1.4, as opposed to 0.7, you are the one spouting disgraceful nonsense. A four year old child could understand these fractions. Someone go out and find Thor a four year old child, he can't make head nor tail of them.

[benr]

She says maybe she wasn't healed all the way the first time. That means she got less than half her original strength back. In that quote she's pleading with Nynaeve to try the weave again because it might increase her strength back to what it was before she was stilled, or failing that at least make her stronger.

 

She is referring to the gap between no strength and her old strength when she talks of half and two thirds. Remember, Nynaeve didn't give her Saidar, she just healed being stilled. Note her saying "what we were", this part is talking about when they could last channel. For it to mean anything else would mean she wants half or two thirds of nothing.

 

Or think of it this way, when Nynaeve healed her, she was healed to somewhere less than 50% of her old strength - we know she speaks of her old strength in this because she talks about her standing with Aes Sedai in terms of how she used to be with them. Remember a bit after when she's explaining (in her apology I believe) that with becoming Aes Sedai again they are again ranked by their strength in the power - a fact that didn't matter when they couldn't channel at all. Anyway, she's asking Nynaeve to try again because maybe it'll take her from whatever number that was to 75% or even 50% failing that so that she's not a glorified Aes Sedai servant. She's not saying she wants Nynaeve to try and give her another 75% of the strength she's still missing. She just wants what she had before back.

 

I argee with you here completely. I never could read that passage the way Luckers did (although he is really good in argumenting  ;)).

Siuan was stilled, then Ny Healed her - to a less then 50% level. Then Siuan asked Ny to try and Heal her up to 2/3 or at least a half of what they were - not to add to their current level.

 

But honestly, does it even matter? Siuan thinks if Nynaeve does the weave again it might increase her strength. It doesn't matter whether she means a percentage of the missing strength or a percentage of her original strength. She just wants it increased so her standing among Aes Sedai isn't so low and that's all she's asking for.

 

It matters on this Forum  :)

A few theories are based on this difference (e.g. Cyndane/Lanfear being stilled or not, etc.)

 

Yup, of course none of it really matters; we're all kind of nitpicking here.  It matters to me because, while it seems obvious to me that Cyndane/Lanfear was healed by a woman, it also seems obvious to me that whoever did it did a better job than Nynaeve did with Siuan and Leane.  I am curious to know who that was.  Is it possible that it is someone that observed Nyn, and was able to improve on her methods?  If that is so, which one would it have been?  And if not, then how did they learn it?  Remember, what Nyn did was supposed to be impossible - even to the Forsaken.

[Thor]

where can i send questions to BS or Harriet?  I'll ask them of relative strength between alivia unaided and cyndanne, that will settle everything forever.

[Luckers]

madwe up numbers? read the paragraph and come back talk again.  those numbers were conservative, i wouldn't be surprised if it should be closer to 1.5/3.

 

and yes, it is 10-seventh, as in 10 over 7, if you are worthless at maths/arithmetics, don't come here with your disgraceful nonsense please.

 

You do realise 10-seventh is not a term. Ten sevenths, might be, though it would more likely be expressed as [1 3/7]

 

Luckers, I don't agree on your interpretation of the quote.  It clearly says to me that Nynaeve took them back to less than half of their original strength when she healed them, and if she tried again she could take them back to one half or 2/3 of their original strength.  It seems very cut and dried.  

 

Yes, many assume that--the problem is that Siuan and Leane are not below the cut off strength to become Aes Sedai. We've met six Aes Sedai to date weaker than Siuan. As such they are not less than half their original strength, and as such that comment must refer in relation to the amount lost, not their total strength.

 

She says maybe she wasn't healed all the way the first time. That means she got less than half her original strength back.

 

Care to rethink that logic? She could have 99% of her original strength and still not have been healed all the way.

 

In that quote she's pleading with Nynaeve to try the weave again because it might increase her strength back to what it was before she was stilled, or failing that at least make her stronger.

 

Actually if you pay attention to the wording, she's asking for half of what she's lost, or even a third. She is speaking of the difference between her original strength, and her current--and more specifically she is speaking of the social standing inferred by that strength.

 

Say she was 55 before, at the top of the hierarchy. We know she is now around 40, almost at the bottom, though not there. If she regianed half of what she lost she we be at 47.5. A dramatic increase in her standing.

 

Or think of it this way, when Nynaeve healed her, she was healed to somewhere less than 50% of her old strength - we know she speaks of her old strength in this because she talks about her standing with Aes Sedai in terms of how she used to be with them. Remember a bit after when she's explaining (in her apology I believe) that with becoming Aes Sedai again they are again ranked by their strength in the power - a fact that didn't matter when they couldn't channel at all. Anyway, she's asking Nynaeve to try again because maybe it'll take her from whatever number that was to 75% or even 50% failing that so that she's not a glorified Aes Sedai servant. She's not saying she wants Nynaeve to try and give her another 75% of the strength she's still missing. She just wants what she had before back.

 

Again, no she wasn't. She is above the Aes Sedai cut off strength. You are correct about her speaking about her standing--she was speaking of the range of standing amongst Aes Sedai, which covers from Daigian to Siuan's original strength (they believed Cadsuane was dead).

 

Effectively the hierarchy covered a very minor preportion of the strength range. Above the Aes Sedai cut off to the strongest Aes Sedai, who is still far from really strong. The degree to which a slight  strength decrease effects a social status change is massice, and it was to that which she was refering.

 

I argee with you here completely. I never could read that passage the way Luckers did (although he is really good in argumenting  ).

Siuan was stilled, then Ny Healed her - to a less then 50% level. Then Siuan asked Ny to try and Heal her up to 2/3 or at least a half of what they were - not to add to their current level.

 

They are stronger than Daigian, Akkarin, Elin, and the three unnamed others. They are above the Aes Sedai cut off. They are therefore not half their strength. Much less being less.

 

Yup, of course none of it really matters; we're all kind of nitpicking here.  It matters to me because, while it seems obvious to me that Cyndane/Lanfear was healed by a woman, it also seems obvious to me that whoever did it did a better job than Nynaeve did with Siuan and Leane.  I am curious to know who that was.  Is it possible that it is someone that observed Nyn, and was able to improve on her methods?  If that is so, which one would it have been?  And if not, then how did they learn it?  Remember, what Nyn did was supposed to be impossible - even to the Forsaken.

 

I really don't get this. Siuan and Leanne were speaking of their strength relative to other Aes Sedai--the emphasis they placed on thei loss was within the range of Aes Sedai strength, which is around 37 at the lowest and maybe 60 at the highest. We know this as a fact (that they were speaking of their strengths within a limited range, not that 60 is the highest, thats guesswork)

 

 

[Nightstrike]

I really don't get this. Siuan and Leanne were speaking of their strength relative to other Aes Sedai--the emphasis they placed on thei loss was within the range of Aes Sedai strength, which is around 37 at the lowest and maybe 60 at the highest. We know this as a fact (that they were speaking of their strengths within a limited range, not that 60 is the highest, thats guesswork)

It's absolutely clear that the range you're talking about is incorrect (for many different reasons). Siuan is now between 1/3 and 1/2 her original strength. Had she been at 40 now, she would've had to have been more than 80 before. That means she lost 40 units of strength. Lanfear loosing the same 40 units, from her 100 strength units (as you've suggested before), would make Cyndane a strength 60. Siuan was originally more than 80 (not 60, as you suggest). Cyndane is quite a bit stronger than Moghedien (from Graendal's point of view).

 

The weakened Siuan is NOT at any 40 in strength. Nowhere near.

[Nightstrike]

I argee with you here completely. I never could read that passage the way Luckers did (although he is really good in argumenting  ).

Siuan was stilled, then Ny Healed her - to a less then 50% level. Then Siuan asked Ny to try and Heal her up to 2/3 or at least a half of what they were - not to add to their current level.

 

They are stronger than Daigian, Akkarin, Elin, and the three unnamed others. They are above the Aes Sedai cut off. They are therefore not half their strength. Much less being less.

 

I wrote the following in another thread.

 

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way." (LoC, To Heal Again).

 

Most women in Salidar would be as strong, even if they reached two thirds. "If Siuan was healed to half her strength", meaning she's less than half her original strength. If "cut-off strength to become Aes Sedai" is 36% of Lanfear's original strength, then it feels safe to assume that the weaker Siuan would be at least 40% of Lanfear's original strength. More than twice that would make her at least 80 in strength. Lanfear loosing the same value would make Cyndane a strength 60. So that means Moiraine/Elaida level is above Cyndane. That doesn't seem reasonable.

 

 

My conclusion is that the mean must be far below 50, and that we must be dealing with a skewed distribution.

 

[Nightstrike]

My conclusion is that the mean must be far below 50, and that we must be dealing with a skewed distribution.

 

When I wrote that, we were discussing a scale where 100 would equal Lanfear's strength. But, of course, the same would be true if we would use a scale where 100 equals Rand's strength. The curve can't be symmetric about the mean.

 

[General Cauthon]

It's absolutely clear that the range you're talking about is incorrect (for many different reasons).

 

Really, can you prove that claim?

 

Siuan is now between 1/3 and 1/2 her original strength.

 

Proof? I haven't found any place in the Books that states that. I agree with Luckers, Siuan is discussing her sosial standing in the Aes Sedai hierarchy when she is begging Nynaeve to try to heal her again.

[metria31183]

Proof? I haven't found any place in the Books that states that. I agree with Luckers, Siuan is discussing her sosial standing in the Aes Sedai hierarchy when she is begging Nynaeve to try to heal her again.

 

I believe the quote Nightstrike already provided is sufficient.

 

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way." (LoC, To Heal Again).

[General Cauthon]

Funny that, I just read the entire chapter he refered to, and I couldn't find that particular passage. Either the quote is incorrect, or we read different editions of the book.

 

The closest I come to find that qoute is this;

 

I am not as strong as I was, Siuan, and neither are you. Most of the women here can channel more than either of us, now. Light, some of the Accepted can, not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve.

 

This is what Leane says to Siuan in LoC, chapter 30 To Heal Again, page 613 in my paperback.

 

There's nothing I have found in the books so far that states that Siuan or Leane lost more than half their strenght. If I have missed something, please let me know.

[Nightstrike]

Funny that, I just read the entire chapter he refered to, and I couldn't find that particular passage. Either the quote is uincorrect, or we read different editions of the book.

Different editions, I would think. I was lazy and got my information off the FAQ at wotmania. http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

 

The (newer) editions say the very same thing. But in other words. Page 603 in my paperback (US):..."If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.". (same chapter as before). That was what I got for being lazy. But they are still less than half their original strength. Probably more than 1/3 their original strength, since they didn't want to be Healed up to 1/3...

 

 

[metria31183]

Funny that, I just read the entire chapter he refered to, and I couldn't find that particular passage. Either the quote is uincorrect, or we read different editions of the book.

Different editions, I would think. I was lazy and got my information off the FAQ at wotmania. http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

 

The (newer) editions say the very same thing. But in other words. Page 603 in my paperback (US):..."If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.". (same chapter as before). That was what I got for being lazy. But they are still less than half their original strength. Probably more than 1/3 their original strength, since they didn't want to be Healed up to 1/3...

 

 

 

I read that as Siuan and Leane want half the strength had before they were stilled.  Nynaeve can't Heal social standing.  If they wanted half again as much as they after stilling it would have read:  maybe she'll only take us to half or two-thirds again as much we have.  Which in my opinion supports the idea that Cyndane wasn't healed by a woman becuase she did not loose more than half her strength.

 

[Nightstrike]

Which in my opinion supports the idea that Cyndane wasn't healed by a woman becuase she did not loose more than half her strength.

What theory do you have for the lost strength, then? I've read somewhere about the "Aelfinn's granted wish" -explanation. Might be some other theories also. I'd say that any explanation is possible, it was RJ that was the creator and master storyteller.

[metria31183]

What theory do you have for the lost strength, then? I've read somewhere about the "Aelfinn's granted wish" -explanation. Might be some other theories also. I'd say that any explanation is possible, it was RJ that was the creator and master storyteller.

 

I don't have a particular theory really.  I just don't buy the Healed by a woman theory.  I don't think there is enough evidence to support it beyond a reasonable doubt.  Yes there is some evidence to support it, but there are too many unknowns that have to be taken into consideration (what the 'Finns can and can't do, what the DO can and can't do, etc.).  I have more of an issue with people that refuse to admit that their theory is only a theory.

 

 

[benr]

For the first times since I've been on this forum, I find Lucker's arguments not convincing.  He's poked enough holes in my pet theories that all of them have sunk (although I still hold out faint hope that Loras is Mesaana).  Unfortunately, this is also one of those discussions that won't be resolved in AMoL.  That's the beauty of RJ's world; I don't know that I've read anything else that has such depth that so many intelligent people can come to different, yet rational, conclusions.  I don't think it will be revealed exactly how Lanfear became Cyndane.  We may get some insight from Moiraine, but it is also entirely possible that they were split up when they went through the doorway and Moiraine doesn't know what happened to Lanfear.  Fascinating stuff.

[Dmitri]

Funny that, I just read the entire chapter he refered to, and I couldn't find that particular passage. Either the quote is uincorrect, or we read different editions of the book.

Different editions, I would think. I was lazy and got my information off the FAQ at wotmania. http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

 

The (newer) editions say the very same thing. But in other words. Page 603 in my paperback (US):..."If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.". (same chapter as before). That was what I got for being lazy. But they are still less than half their original strength. Probably more than 1/3 their original strength, since they didn't want to be Healed up to 1/3...

 

I have a question - is this really a difference in editions? I mean, which one then is more correct?

[Nightstrike]

I have a question - is this really a difference in editions? I mean, which one then is more correct?

What do you mean? Both are correct, of course.