Burning Out

[Thor]

if lanfear could decrease asmodean's strength, why can't the finns or the do decrease cyndanne's strength?

[Swigaro]

if lanfear could decrease asmodean's strength, why can't the finns or the do decrease cyndanne's strength?

 

Lanfear didn't perminently decrease Asmodean's strength.  She put a partial shield on him that was strong enough so he wouldn't be able to break it, leaving him just strong enough to teach Rand, but not strong enough to be really usefull.  It is a totally different matter.

[Charlz Fel]

Other way round. Body is ability to channel, soul is everything else - saidar or saidin, Talents, strength, all these appear to be unchanging between bodies/incarnations.

Actually, I think (could I be mistaken?) RJ said that different reincarnations/same soul could have different Talents. Don't know for sure about the strength, but I believe you're right. I think the same soul has the same strength in different reincarnations - provided ability to channel, of course.

 

Edit: I looked for the "different Talents/same soul" quote, but couldn't find it anywhere. Don't know how I got that idea. Must be a mistake of mine.

 

 

 

 

Actually, we have evidence that the same soul, in the same body, has the potential for different Talent sets.  Specifically, when Rand goes through his "lives that might have been" in TGH, there is one life in which Egwene, as a wilder, had replaced Nyneave as Wisdom and "her cures that worked so miraculously for others were only just able to keep Rand alive from the sickness that constantly seemed to threaten him."  This suggests that Egwene had learned to Heal, possibly even to the point that she is able to keep the taint-sickness at bay.  However, in the real world, Egwene has never learned to Heal.

[Nightstrike]

Actually, we have evidence that the same soul, in the same body, has the potential for different Talent sets.  Specifically, when Rand goes through his "lives that might have been" in TGH, there is one life in which Egwene, as a wilder, had replaced Nyneave as Wisdom and "her cures that worked so miraculously for others were only just able to keep Rand alive from the sickness that constantly seemed to threaten him."  This suggests that Egwene had learned to Heal, possibly even to the point that she is able to keep the taint-sickness at bay.  However, in the real world, Egwene has never learned to Heal.

That's true. And, I think, a little peculiar.

 

The sparkers are generally stronger than the learners. If I understand things correctly, the same soul could be a sparker one lifetime and a learner the next. Also a little peculiar. If a soul has the same strength in all lifetimes, and sparking is genetically induced, then why are the sparkers stronger than the learners? Could it be some genetically induced "blocking" that all people are born with in higher or lower degree, and the stronger you are the more likely you are to overcome a moderate "blocking"? If that's the case, then Sharina must have a massive genetic "blocking".

 

 

 

From Robert Jordan's blog:

For kcf, Tuon is stating a misbelief, really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will.  The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling — though they are beginning to hear reports – but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say.  There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune.  This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on “this” side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul’dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean.  And also a higher percentage of many Talents.

The bold marked part (marked by me) seems to indicate that Talents are influenced by genetics. That would be my interpretation, anyway.

 

 

 

DragonCon '05 Reports:

Q96: Do certain races have better ability at channeling than others? For example, the Sea Folk are very good at weather, the Aiel have a high proportion of Dreamers, and the Seanchan can make ter’angreals.

 

RJ: The Seanchan can only make one kind of ter’angreal. They haven’t thought about making another. Certain groups are better at some abilities but it’s a matter of need. The Atha’an Miere are dependent on the sea, the wind and water and it would be natural for them to develop high skills to deal with control of weather and winds. For the Aiel, Dreaming is one of the ways to find new water, using need is how they find water. When the population in a hold is too great, and they have to find a new hold, the Dreamwalker uses need to find it. So yes, there are more Dreamwalkers there.

More fuel to what Charlz Fel said in his post.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

The fact that Elayne and Talene come from families of channelers and are both strong suggests its possible, but yeah, its unknown.

On the other hand, Elayne's mother is weak. Which doesn't really make things much clearer.

 

This suggests that Egwene had learned to Heal, possibly even to the point that she is able to keep the taint-sickness at bay. However, in the real world, Egwene has never learned to Heal.

Is she stated to be lacking in Talent for Healing, or has she just not learnt it yet? After all, the difference between can't Heal and hasn't learned to Heal is an important one.

[Luckers]

if lanfear could decrease asmodean's strength, why can't the finns or the do decrease cyndanne's strength?

 

As General Cauthon said, Lanfear did not deacrese Asmodean's strength, she limited the amount he could channel--much the same as the Aes Sedai are doing to Egwene with Forkright. Beyond that there is the fact that Lanfear is a channeler and the Finns are not. Their skills and limitations are utterly different.

 

Is she stated to be lacking in Talent for Healing, or has she just not learnt it yet? After all, the difference between can't Heal and hasn't learned to Heal is an important one.

 

I'm pretty sure she actually says she cannot heal at one stage.

 

It may be that we should consider Healing seperately of other Talents, though. It seems to be that there is a history and temprement element to healing--Tiana says that many of the villiage wise ones and healers are proving to be quite talented at the new form of healing. Curious, considering they were simply wilders--if their talents were completely natural then we should see the same range of skill and inneptitude as with any other channeler. If this is the case, if the inclination to heal can influence the manifestation of skill, then it would explain the difference between Egwene the Wisdom and Egwene the Aes Sedai. She never was exposed to that to a degree that would incline her towards true skill.

 

The idea makes sense--like the use of hand gestures, or blocking oneself, the minds inclinations clearly effect channeling. This does not seem to hold true for Foretelling, or Dreaming, or seeing ta'veren. So maybe we should devide Talents into two parts--genuine abilities, and skills with weaving. Weather weaving would be a skill, foretelling a Talent. Healing, a skill, seeing ta'veren a Talent.

 

Does that make any sense?

[Nightstrike]

Luckers, we discussed genetics and the channeler breeding pool in another thread. Did you see the RJ comment on the Seanchan breeding pool? Do you agree with me that Talents seem to be influenced by genetics?

[Thor]

i do recall something being said about genetics and soul both affecting channeling ability.

[Jethro]

Personal Message (Offline)

 

 

Re: Burning Out

« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2009, 08:08:57 AM »

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Moridin and Osan'gars bodies are from men of less-than-middle age, meaning they are just as likely to be very strong as, say Taim, who is almost as strong as Rand, or Narishma, who was born with the spark. Despite the idea of Aes Sedai killing the ability to channel out of men, Rand already has plenty of very strong Ashaman who could easily have been the same age as the Gars were in their current bodies' original life. Their bodies could be just as strong in channeling as the bodies of Aginors and Ishamaels going off Taim being potentially as strong as Rand himself. Aran'gars strength cannot be commented on because for one thing we rarely get her PoVs and for another there is no way at all to ever judge a mans strength unless he is channeling, and even then he could be holding back. Aran'gar could very well be weaker than Balthamel was, we have no evidence for or against.

 

Ok, you seem to have missed that in Winter's Heart Demandres considers that Cyndane may be Lanfear but dismisses it because she is weaker. This shows that the other three remained at the exact same strength.

 

Aside from which, what do the men's ages have to do with their strength?

 

Demandred noting that the other two men didnt lose any strength means little because I showed a reason for it, which you have overlooked. Their bodies are strong enough for their souls full power to be available. My comment regarding their age wasnt meant to be evidence on their strength, but evidence that they are roughly the same age as Rand, so if any sort of average were to be looked at you would be looking at the same time period (ish) as when Rand was born. Do you see what I mean? Some believe that the average channeler strength seems to be getting weaker, but my thought is that the last few generations have begun spouting the channeler gene again and that the average strength is curving upwards again. Recently the White Tower has recruited a hell of a lot of novices compared to the recent past, and the Black Tower has already grown incredibly fast because that many men have been found with the ability. So, if more people are born with the spark or the ability it stands to reason that the Shadow managed to find two male bodies of enough strength to support both Ishamael and Aginor fully, considering both the fact that the Shadow has had a hell of a long time to look AND they knew what they were looking for, and also the possibility of channeler strength becoming greater on average. The idea that they found those bodies recently holds no sway on the point because those bodies will have been born with the potential, within the last two generations at the most. Thats why I noted their age. RJs comment about chance being involved seems to only be looking at Moridins body being young and imposing, not the fact that the body was there or that it is strong enough. RJ himself said Moridins body was there for "some other reason." My thought is that when that body was found the Great Lord buzzed off how strong it was and had his lads put it in a stasis box.

 

Ares, provide proof that she was Healed by a woman and I will leave it. For all we know there could be a number of things that could also cause the weakness and simply saying she was healed by a woman with only her weakness to go on isnt enough, hence the debate. If you disagree still, then you dont really need to say it again unless you provide something to back it up other than the fact that she is weaker because as you can see we are looking at possible alternatives.

[benr]

Two points:

 

1. Is it possible that Nyn's healing of Siuan and Leanne wasn't her "best work"?  It was the first time she did it, and channelers usually get better at weaves the more they do them.  Many of the Yellow sisters asked her if she considered doing things "this way" or "that way"; while it only served to anger Nyn, it is possible that she could a develop a better way of healing severing, so that she could bring her patients back to a closer approximation of their original strength.  If that is possible, it means that Lanfear/Cyndane could have been healed back to a higher level simply because a better system of healing was used.

 

2. Is it possible that Moiraine prepared the severing of Lan's bond prior to her confrontation with Lanfear?  She knew it was coming, and she wanted Lan protected as much as possible, and I think that she was resigned to losing him to Nyn.  This way, with the bond passed, and the expectation of the bond being passed again to Nyn, she freed Lan to move on, which he wouldn't have done if the bond still existed.  I find this less likely than her being severed at the point of impact, but certainly not so unlikely as to make it impossible or even improbable.

 

Thoughts?

[agaga]

Two points:

 

1. Is it possible that Nyn's healing of Siuan and Leanne wasn't her "best work"?  It was the first time she did it, and channelers usually get better at weaves the more they do them.  Many of the Yellow sisters asked her if she considered doing things "this way" or "that way"; while it only served to anger Nyn, it is possible that she could a develop a better way of healing severing, so that she could bring her patients back to a closer approximation of their original strength.  If that is possible, it means that Lanfear/Cyndane could have been healed back to a higher level simply because a better system of healing was used.

 

2. Is it possible that Moiraine prepared the severing of Lan's bond prior to her confrontation with Lanfear?  She knew it was coming, and she wanted Lan protected as much as possible, and I think that she was resigned to losing him to Nyn.  This way, with the bond passed, and the expectation of the bond being passed again to Nyn, she freed Lan to move on, which he wouldn't have done if the bond still existed.  I find this less likely than her being severed at the point of impact, but certainly not so unlikely as to make it impossible or even improbable.

 

Thoughts?

 

1) or maybe since Lanfear was stronger originally she came back to a higher portion of her old strength... that's what I think anyway.

 

2) Yes Moraine aranged for Lan's bond to pass to Myrele and then to Nyn when Nyn was raised. She did this even before Going through the door in tear or the rings in the waste. She's known since Fal Dara that Lan was in love and Nyn would get him eventually.

[benr]

 

 

2) Yes Moraine aranged for Lan's bond to pass to Myrele and then to Nyn when Nyn was raised. She did this even before Going through the door in tear or the rings in the waste. She's known since Fal Dara that Lan was in love and Nyn would get him eventually.

 

Yes, we know that.  But the question is, did she intentionally sever the bond  at the time of her fiery battle with Lanfear, so that Lan would then be free to go, which would mean that her being stilled isn't a foregone conclusion, or was the severing of the bond a result of her being stilled?

[MikeRiley]

I can't see her severing the bond in that way. If she did it first then Lan wouldn't have gone mad, he'd have just been released from it. We know he went mad by his new Aes Sedai's comments and Nynaeve's upset when she meets him again. That leaves death or being stilled/burnt out. We know Lanfear died on the other side of the doorway, just not when. We also know Moraine is alive. So Lanfear wouldn't have been the one to still Moraine and I doubt if Moraine could channel she'd be a prisoner.

 

I think Moraine was burned out. That angreal she placed so carefully on the wagon wasn't just to distract Lanfear. I can see the two of them fighting over it and being burned out in the process. What would have happened if the angreal was destroyed in the same manner the door frame was? If they were both channeling through half of the angreal the way Rand and Asmodean did with the access key maybe it burned them both out first, or burned Moraine out and fried Lanfear.

[Luckers]

Luckers, we discussed genetics and the channeler breeding pool in another thread. Did you see the RJ comment on the Seanchan breeding pool? Do you agree with me that Talents seem to be influenced by genetics?

 

I do, yes. I was speaking more of making a distinction between sills with the Power--such as the ability to Heal, or to control Weather--with abilities that exist because of the Power--such as Foretelling, Dreaming and the like.

 

Where talents such as Egwene's skill with Earth come in I'm not sure. Perhaps we should divide it into three levels. Talents, Skills and Strengths.

 

Demandred noting that the other three didnt lose any strength means little because I showed a reason for it, which you have overlooked. Their bodies are strong enough for their souls full power to be available.

 

I didn't overlook it Jethro. The entire first part of my comment was about it. Why would the Shadow have expended such an effort to find bodies as strong as the souls of those three, yet not make that effort for Cyndane? And, more to the point, how precisely did they find a woman as strong in saidin as Balthemel?

 

My comment regarding their age wasnt meant to be evidence on their strength, but evidence that they are roughly the same age as Rand, so if any sort of average were to be looked at you would be looking at the same time period (ish) as when Rand was born. Do you see what I mean? Some believe that the average channeler strength seems to be getting weaker, but my thought is that the last few generations have begun spouting the channeler gene again and that the average strength is curving upwards again. Recently the White Tower has recruited a hell of a lot of novices compared to the recent past, and the Black Tower has already grown incredibly fast because that many men have been found with the ability. So, if more people are born with the spark or the ability it stands to reason that the Shadow managed to find two male bodies of enough strength to support both Ishamael and Aginor fully, considering both the fact that the Shadow has had a hell of a long time to look AND they knew what they were looking for, and also the possibility of channeler strength becoming greater on average.

 

The reason the Aes Sedai have found so many is that there are so many to be found. Nearly one percent of the population can channel, 62.5% of the women have the strength to gain the shawl, 65.4% of men. even with the population decline thats over a hundred thousand channelers. Thats not a sudden resurgence, thats simply that the Aes Sedai never bothered to actively recruit and let that sway their opinion. Which is better laid out in the Aes Sedai thread.

 

As for your finally comment, the Shadow did not have a hell of a lot of time. There was a period of a few months between death and rebirth for each, and the Shadow did not have easy access--assaults on the borderlands were dramatically decreased, and yet we know that it was of those attacks that Aran'gar and Osan'gar were found.

 

Your really claiming that of the couple of hundred individuals the shadow took in those quiet months they not only found a man of Forsaken level strength, but a woman who could channel saidin to such a degree?

 

And then what? They stopped bothering for Cyndane?

 

1. Is it possible that Nyn's healing of Siuan and Leanne wasn't her "best work"?  It was the first time she did it, and channelers usually get better at weaves the more they do them.  Many of the Yellow sisters asked her if she considered doing things "this way" or "that way"; while it only served to anger Nyn, it is possible that she could a develop a better way of healing severing, so that she could bring her patients back to a closer approximation of their original strength.  If that is possible, it means that Lanfear/Cyndane could have been healed back to a higher level simply because a better system of healing was used.

 

Why is that nessasary? Lanfear/Cyndane lost the same amount of strength as Siuan and Leane.

 

2. Is it possible that Moiraine prepared the severing of Lan's bond prior to her confrontation with Lanfear?  She knew it was coming, and she wanted Lan protected as much as possible, and I think that she was resigned to losing him to Nyn.  This way, with the bond passed, and the expectation of the bond being passed again to Nyn, she freed Lan to move on, which he wouldn't have done if the bond still existed.  I find this less likely than her being severed at the point of impact, but certainly not so unlikely as to make it impossible or even improbable.

 

The bond being undone means that it does not cause the Death-Absortion effect. Lan suffered the Death-Absortion. His bond was not undone, it was severed, and the only thing we've seen do that is death or being severed from the Power--and we do know that transdimensional travel does not cause such a severing.

 

1) or maybe since Lanfear was stronger originally she came back to a higher portion of her old strength... that's what I think anyway.

 

Why is that nessasary? There is nothing to suggest that Leane, Siuan and Lanfear all three didn't lose the same degree of strength.

 

 

[Luckers]

I believe i posted on this in some detail earlier. Let me repost for you.

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Siuan and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. But is everything what it appears to be?

 

Firstly, how much did Cyndane lose? We know that she is stronger than Graendal, and that even if Graendal’s beliefs about her own strengths are self-delusions, as RJ suggests most of the Forsaken’s beliefs about their own strength comparative to others are, we still know that Graendal is very strong—indeed, without the angreal Graendal was still stronger than Someryn, who had never encountered anyone stronger than she amongst the thousands of Aiel Wise Ones who could channel.

 

For very rough perception, lets say that Lanfear was a hundred. If Graendal is an 85 or an 80, Lanfear could have lost 10 to 15 units of strength, and still be stronger than Graendal. At 85 there would not be many women the world over who topped Graendal. But is this comparable to what Siuan and Leane lost?

 

Now, the first thing that we must remember in dealing with Siuan and Leane is that there situation is distorted by the Aes Sedai social hierarchy. People speak of them having lost ‘half their strength’ citing their own comments as evidence, but lets actually have a look at what they say.

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

So, what can we state absolutely about their new strength? Well, as of CoT we can state that their strength is above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Siuan’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Siuan.

 

Why is this significant? Because if Siuan and Leane are still within the range of Aes Sedai strength than a) they did not lose more than half their strength, and b) their strength attains an immediate judgment within the social hierarchy in reference to their old strength and position.

 

Lets take at what that hierarchy and judgment reflects. So, the social hierarchy represents a very limited range of strengths. According to RJ [insert proper quote] the Aes Sedai cut off point is at the 36.2 percentile which establishes the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Siuan’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

Again, on a very rough chart lets say for the purpose of consideration that Siuan’s former strength was 60, that means the social hierarchy range includes less than 30% of the range of channeling strengths. Therefore, even a minute loss of strength would result in a fairly large decrease of social standing. If Siuan and Leane lost the same degree of strength as Lanfear (10 to 15 units) than yes, they would experience the loss of social standing stated. Beyond that, keeping in mind that RJ has stated that the Aes Sedai strength distribution is not even it also allows for the average to be roughly half way between their new and old strengths.

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Siuan was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Siuan goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

 

I've no problem with people disagreeing, but not reading before posting then posting as if its a new idea is a little annoying when people have already made an effort to comment on the issue.

[Thor]

It's already been argued and agreed by most that cyndanne as she is now would still be roughly 10-seventh times stronger than an unaided Alivia.  There is no way you can say that Lanfear lost the same strength proportionally as Leanne/Siuan.

 

It is possible that they lost the same amount of absolute strength. but proportionally? no.

 

this leads again to the argument of whether the loss in strength when healed by the same sex is a fixed amount or a proportional amount.  and that has been argued before already with no conclusion given the lack of evidence.

[Jethro]

Why would the Shadow have expended such an effort to find bodies as strong as the souls of those three, yet not make that effort for Cyndane? And, more to the point, how precisely did they find a woman as strong in saidin as Balthemel?

 

What? The point was that tehy found two male channeler bodies strong enough, but that Cyndanes body is the strongest one they could find but it is still weaker than Lanfears. A case of bad luck in her case.

 

There is no comparison between the two given, Aran'gar never notes her own channeling power lever like Cyndane does so in the few short PoVs we have had off aran'gar there was no need to put in anything regarding her strengt hbecause at those precise moments she didnt think about it herself. My thought is that Aran'gar IS weaker, but since we have never seen her take note of her ability (because her and Cyndane dont walk around thinking I AM WEAKER I AM WEAKER I AM WEAKER) then we havent had chance to find out.

[Nightstrike]

I'm not necessarily convinced either way, but if I would try to come up with arguments in favor, then here's my best input:

1. If body and soul both influence strength, then maybe the genetic part works the same whether the body is male or female. The soul part is the same, and genetics have the same effect, undependent of the sex. A "strong" male body is the same strength as a "strong" female body. Male souls, on the other hand, are on average stronger than female souls.

2. Even if the female body was "weaker" than a "stronger" male body (assuming both were accessable for the DO at the time of transmigration), maybe the DO considered the tactical advantage of male soul in female body enough to outweigh the strength loss.

 

 

[Luckers]

It's already been argued and agreed by most that cyndanne as she is now would still be roughly 10-seventh times stronger than an unaided Alivia.  There is no way you can say that Lanfear lost the same strength proportionally as Leanne/Siuan.

 

What? On all fronts--who argued and agreed that? What do you mean by 10-sevenths times stronger than an unaided Alivia? 10-sevenths? What does that mean? And how do you sustain it?

 

What? The point was that tehy found two male channeler bodies strong enough, but that Cyndanes body is the strongest one they could find but it is still weaker than Lanfears. A case of bad luck in her case.

 

Or insane luck in theirs. Even ignoring Aran'gar, their finding two men of Aginor and Ishamael's strength amongst the limited prospects of the people being captures in the borderlands is absurd. And I'm not ignoring Aran'gar.

 

There is no comparison between the two given, Aran'gar never notes her own channeling power lever like Cyndane does so in the few short PoVs we have had off aran'gar there was no need to put in anything regarding her strengt hbecause at those precise moments she didnt think about it herself. My thought is that Aran'gar IS weaker, but since we have never seen her take note of her ability (because her and Cyndane dont walk around thinking I AM WEAKER I AM WEAKER I AM WEAKER) then we havent had chance to find out.

 

Aran'gar is the same strength as Balthamel. Demandred's comment shows that. All of the other three are the exact same strength as their original bodies, all shown by Demandred--thats the point.

 

Why would Aran'gar be put into a female body if there was a male one handy that would have been stronger?

 

You really can't see the advantages of a woman who channels saidin?

 

1. If body and soul both influence strength, then maybe the genetic part works the same whether the body is male or female. The soul part is the same, and genetics have the same effect, undependent of the sex. A "strong" male body is the same strength as a "strong" female body. Male souls, on the other hand, are on average stronger than female souls.

 

An interesting thought, yet were that the case why were souls reborn constantly into the same gender? We know thats the case from Birgitte.

 

It does provide a reasonable explanation for Aran'gar though. I still find it propblematic that the others are exactly their original strength, whilst Cyndane is not--this is viable, but why would the shadow not have made the same effort to find Cyndane a host equal to her original strength?

 

2. Even if the female body was "weaker" than a "stronger" male body (assuming both were accessable for the DO at the time of transmigration), maybe the DO considered the tactical advantage of male soul in female body enough to outweigh the strength loss.

 

Demandreds thoughts show all the other recycled Forsaken remain at their original strength.

[Thor]

It's already been argued and agreed by most that cyndanne as she is now would still be roughly 10-seventh times stronger than an unaided Alivia.  There is no way you can say that Lanfear lost the same strength proportionally as Leanne/Siuan.

 

What? On all fronts--who argued and agreed that? What do you mean by 10-sevenths times stronger than an unaided Alivia? 10-sevenths? What does that mean? And how do you sustain it?

 

 

This has been said before already but since you insist on your pathetic lack of real logic, here I go again.

 

Alivia is estimated to be 1.8 times Cyndanne's strength at the cleansing, any more than that makes it simply unbelievable that Cyndanne could have survived, regardless of how abnormally skillful she might be.  We know Alivia's angreal is a strong one and we know that even a moderate angreal (ie the one Elyne had) would more than double the channelers's strength.  So we can safely estimate Alivia's angreal to multipy channeling strength by 2.5.

 

So normalizing around Cyndanne, the relative strengths would be:

1.8 - Alivia with angreal

1  - Cyndanne

1.8/2.5 = 0.72 - Alivia without angreal.

 

Therefore Cyndanne is 10-seventh times as strong as alivia without angreal.

[Jethro]

This debate is going round in circles, I withdraw

[Luckers]

*Blinks* *Blinks again*.

 

You do realise you made that math up? That nothing sustains Cyndane being that strength? That you are using my own statements about the strength of the ring and bracelet angreal in your comments (yes, i do remember that original thread)? Or that 10-sevenths is not a mathematical term?

 

For that matter, do you realise you are refering to yourself in the plural?

[General Cauthon]

Alivia is estimated to be 1.8 times Cyndanne's strength at the cleansing, any more than that makes it simply unbelievable that Cyndanne could have survived, regardless of how abnormally skillful she might be.

 

How did Rahvin survive so long against Rand in Caemlyn? Rand was stronger to start with, AND had a angreal. And Rahvin STILL would've killed Rand if Nynaeve hadn't showed up with Moghedien on a leash. Do you think that is "unbelieveable" as well?

By YOUR "math" Rand would be 2.5-3 times as strong as Rahvin, and Rahvin didn't seem to have any problems surviving at all, so I cannot see why Cyndane should have any against Alivia.

 

[Mr Ares]

RJ's comment about chance being involved seems to only be looking at Moridins body being young and imposing, not the fact that the body was there or that it is strong enough. RJ himself said Moridins body was there for "some other reason." My thought is that when that body was found the Great Lord buzzed off how strong it was and had his lads put it in a stasis box.

I don't recall him saying any such thing. I suggest you provide a quote. What RJ has said is that the only way to be immediately reincarnated is if there is a body on hand for some other reason, but he doesn't say any specific character got lucky in this way, nor is there an indication that Moridin was brought back immediately. He died in TDR, and was next seen in ACoS. Quite a gap between them. Also, suggesting that the body was put in a stasis box - why? RJ specifically said that the Shadow does not keep suitable bodies. If you die, you have to wait until they find out, because there aren't any on tap.

 

Mr Ares, provide proof that she was Healed by a woman and I will leave it. For all we know there could be a number of things that could also cause the weakness and simply saying she was healed by a woman with only her weakness to go on isnt enough, hence the debate.

Given that every scrap, every shred, every sliver of evidence we have on the issue points towards the conclusion that she was Healed by a woman, and nothing, not one word, not one line, so much as hints at it being done by Shai'tan, and given that the only - the only - thing we know of that can cause such a loss of strength is being Healed by a woman, I fail to see why we shouldn't dismiss any utterly unsupported speculation out of hand when it contradicts the known facts. If you have some evidence, share.

 

Is she stated to be lacking in Talent for Healing' date=' or has she just not learnt it yet? After all, the difference between can't Heal and hasn't learned to Heal is an important one.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure she actually says she cannot heal at one stage.

 

It may be that we should consider Healing seperately of other Talents, though. It seems to be that there is a history and temprement element to healing--Tiana says that many of the villiage wise ones and healers are proving to be quite talented at the new form of healing. Curious, considering they were simply wilders--if their talents were completely natural then we should see the same range of skill and inneptitude as with any other channeler. If this is the case, if the inclination to heal can influence the manifestation of skill, then it would explain the difference between Egwene the Wisdom and Egwene the Aes Sedai. She never was exposed to that to a degree that would incline her towards true skill.

 

The idea makes sense--like the use of hand gestures, or blocking oneself, the minds inclinations clearly effect channeling. This does not seem to hold true for Foretelling, or Dreaming, or seeing ta'veren. So maybe we should devide Talents into two parts--genuine abilities, and skills with weaving. Weather weaving would be a skill, foretelling a Talent. Healing, a skill, seeing ta'veren a Talent.

 

Does that make any sense?

An Egwene who can't Heal in one life, but can in another. Interesting. Perhaps this indicates that Talents don't come from either the soul or genetics. Also, coupled with this quote provided by Nightstrike:

Q96: Do certain races have better ability at channeling than others? For example, the Sea Folk are very good at weather, the Aiel have a high proportion of Dreamers, and the Seanchan can make ter’angreals.

 

RJ: The Seanchan can only make one kind of ter’angreal. They haven’t thought about making another. Certain groups are better at some abilities but it’s a matter of need. The Atha’an Miere are dependent on the sea, the wind and water and it would be natural for them to develop high skills to deal with control of weather and winds. For the Aiel, Dreaming is one of the ways to find new water, using need is how they find water. When the population in a hold is too great, and they have to find a new hold, the Dreamwalker uses need to find it. So yes, there are more Dreamwalkers there.

History and temperament being influences on Talents I can agree with, but it might be that this is true of all Talents, to a greater or lesser extent, and that we need not split them further. To what extent is the Pattern at work here?

 

It's already been argued and agreed by most that cyndanne as she is now would still be roughly 10-seventh times stronger than an unaided Alivia.

Argued, yes, but with no real agreement on how strong Cyndane is in relation to Alivia. Bear in mind that it is best not to make these claims around when people who remember and took part in the thread are going to point out that your claims about what happened in it are wrong.

 

1.8/2.5 = 0.72

Made up number divided by made up number=result that is a long way from proof of your argument. Also, you mean seven tenths (7/10). Not 10-sevenths. Unless you mean ten to the seventh power? Which should be 10⁷. But that would be 10x10x10x10x10x10x10=10,000,000, surely? So is Cyndane ten million times Alivia's strength?

[metria31183]

Given that every scrap, every shred, every sliver of evidence we have on the issue points towards the conclusion that she was Healed by a woman, and nothing, not one word, not one line, so much as hints at it being done by Shai'tan, and given that the only - the only - thing we know of that can cause such a loss of strength is being Healed by a woman, I fail to see why we shouldn't dismiss any utterly unsupported speculation out of hand when it contradicts the known facts. If you have some evidence, share.

 

So far the only evidence you have that Cyndane was Healed by a woman is her reduction in strength.  Your logic states that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was.  The only thing that can cause a reduction in strength is stilling and being Healed by a woman, therefore, Cyndane was Healed by a woman.  I'll give you that that is a logical conclusion based on that evidence alone.  But there are too many unknowns that also must be considered.  We don't know exactly what the 'Finns can and can't do for one.  We don't know why Lanfear is Cyndane and not herself.  It is stated that she was "held" by the 'Finns.  We don't know how she was held or even why.  We don't know exactly what the DO can or can't do.  Just because nothing says he can do something, doesn't mean he can't.

 

Yes your theory is logical based on a portion of the evidence, but there are too many unknowns for it to be stated as cold hard fact.  In my opinion, it's not even proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  But that is just my opinion.  Just as your theory is your opinion.  I have a right to mine and you have a right to yours.  If when AMoL comes out and you're right, yay for you.  If I'm right, yay for me.  Nothing can be certain until it's released though.

 

As an aside (and no offense is intended) the only ones who really know are RJ and those he chose to tell so the story could be continued.  Unless you (and I don't mean just you Mr Ares, there are others that do this) are a part of that very select group of people your theories are just that.  Theories.  Please don't treat those of us that have differing opinions like we are idiots.  We aren't.  We just see things differently from you.  Sure, we may be wrong, but you may too.  We will all just have to RAFO.