a theory

[bubby]

The dragon is more than just a nickname.  Birgette remembers (before she was expelled from TAR anyway) living lives much older than the AOL, so far back, in fact, that she knew she had lived a thousand times a thousand lives in the oldest memories she had(while still in TAR, where she had a long memory).  So if birgette can remember being spun out for the horn for so so, so so so, so so long before the AOL, then LTT didn't just pick up the DRAGON as a nickname, because the heroes of the horn follow the dragon, and the banner.  So the name "dragon" and the banner that has a dragon on it are as old as a 1000*1000 life times past the AOL.  Even if my math is wrong, its older than LTT in anycase.  So where did the "dragon" and the dragon banner, and dragons from the ancestor ter'angreal in ruedhien, and the precept that the heroes must follow the dragon and the dragon banner, where did that all come from?  The name and symbol have to mean something.

 

I haven't read any supplementary books yet, but I agree, sounds like the 2 forsaken lead a team which bore into the bore over a period of time.  Sounds like drilling nowadays.  Takes forever and sucks when you break a drill bit.

[Tyrell]

I'd say the pattern. The pattern demands a Dragon. That is his symbol so it will become his symbol regardless of his own preferences, maybe Lews was more of a Unicorn man when it came to his preference of mythical beast, but we'll never know.

[Samudor]

Yes, in fact the Dragon is the name of the Light's Champion- the Dark One names him himself. "THE DRAGON, MY ANCIENT ENEMY..." The Dark One calls him simply the Dragon in the prologue of Lord of Chaos. It is also clear that this battle has taken place at least several hundred times, although I highly doubt the Dragon was ever turned. Ishamael was bluffing to try and bully Rand into submitting. Remember Moiraine in the Eye of the World, "different name, difference face, but always the same man." It may be the name that Lews Therin took for himself, but I believe that is the name that every Dragon who is born comes to take for himself. The idea that all of these events, from the AoL to now are acutally part of the same Age, is quite intriguing. It would put a wonderful spin on things.

[CUBAREY]

So if birgette can remember being spun out for the horn for so so, so so so, so so long before the AOL, then LTT didn't just pick up the DRAGON as a nickname, because the heroes of the horn follow the dragon, and the banner.  So the name "dragon" and the banner that has a dragon on it are as old as a 1000*1000 life times past the AOL.

 

Just because Birgitte has known the soul of LTT for many lifetimes that does not mean that the Term "Dragon" has been given to every incarnation of LTT. Moreover, when Birgitte and Hawkwing both address Rand when Mat calls them in The Great Hunt (paperback version, pages 660-662) they both name him Lews Therin. Indeed, the only mention of the Dragon is when Rand pulls out the banner and Hawkwing says We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon" Which might refer to the possibility that the Heroes must follow the Dragon or anyone which holds the banner even though someone else may have used the Horn (which might actually be why both the Horn and the Banner were kept together in the Eye of the World."

 

An amusing aside, Tuon may have married the wrong man! One of the foretellings that she depends on to tell her that Mat is her intended husband is the prophecy that she will marry the man who has gazed on Hawkwings face. Mat is only one of four living men who have gazed on Hawkwings face, Rand and Perrin being two others. But Hurin is the fourth and will show up in AMOL to claim his bride. :D

[Mr Ares]

because the heroes of the horn follow the dragon, and the banner.

On that occasion. It is not necessarily a requirement every time the Horn is blown - most likely not, in fact.

So the name "dragon" and the banner that has a dragon on it are as old as a 1000*1000 life times past the AOL.

Lews Therin is addressed as such, even though his name has changed. All the Heroes have many names, different ones for different lives. Just because the last nickname he used is remebered, doesn't mean he has always used that nickname.

 

I haven't read any supplementary books yet, but I agree, sounds like the 2 forsaken lead a team which bore into the bore over a period of time.

Of the two main people involved in the drilling, only Mierin became a Chosen (Lanfear). Beidomon later committed suicide when unable to find the obscurity he sought after the truth of what they had done became known.

[Luckers]

I am talking about the actual drilling. In TSR, it is said that Mierin and beidomon where the ones who were going to tap into the new power they had discovered, which I take as meaning they were the ones to actually drill the Bore. That there were others involved, that would be the research team discovering the thinness in the Pattern.

Since Lanfear was on the research tem, there would be no need to discover it again.

 

That's an assumption. We have no knowledge of how the Bore was done, and Charn's comments make sense--why would he specify beyond Mierin and Beidomon--Mierin was certainly a leading role, and Beidomon is specifically stated by the Guide as the person assisting her in that task, but in neither case does it suggest that there weren't other things to be done, other roles to take. Hell, there could have been 70 Aes Sedai there in a circle Mierin was leading and it still would make sense for Charn to specify those two. She was his Aes Sedai, and a leading figure.

 

The fact is that its stated that there was a team involved. Charn's comments do not preclude that that continued into the sealing--nor do they even make it unlikely.

 

The dragon is more than just a nickname.  Birgette remembers (before she was expelled from TAR anyway) living lives much older than the AOL, so far back, in fact, that she knew she had lived a thousand times a thousand lives in the oldest memories she had(while still in TAR, where she had a long memory).  So if birgette can remember being spun out for the horn for so so, so so so, so so long before the AOL, then LTT didn't just pick up the DRAGON as a nickname, because the heroes of the horn follow the dragon, and the banner.  So the name "dragon" and the banner that has a dragon on it are as old as a 1000*1000 life times past the AOL.  Even if my math is wrong, its older than LTT in anycase.  So where did the "dragon" and the dragon banner, and dragons from the ancestor ter'angreal in ruedhien, and the precept that the heroes must follow the dragon and the dragon banner, where did that all come from?  The name and symbol have to mean something.

 

That's based on a misperception--that Hawkwing felt it nessasary to follow the banner and the dragon in the specific instance of the events in the Great Hunt is true, but it was not a requirement of the Horn itself.

 

The fact is that the name Dragon was awarded to Lews Therin specifically in complete ignorence of the fact that his soul had fought the Dark One before. He was the First Amongst Servants and leader of the Light--much the same they later gave Latra Posae, his successor, a name--Shaidar Nor, the Slicer of Shadow.

 

Rand only bears the name Dragon now because he was linked to the Dragon by prophecy--indeed he is actually the Dragon Reborn, not the Dragon, though they have the same soul. The Dragon was a name given to Lews Therin, not a name for his soul.

 

 

[Sab]

The one thing that has always bugged me about this series is, especially in the first two books, those lines where Ishy/Ba'alzamaon kept saying "we've fought this war countless times" blah blah blah. He also talks about winning every time, and the Dragon being converted to the shadow sometimes, but I usually just took that as Ishy being arrogant, or maybe trying to frighten an inexperienced Rand. IF however, he was correct and the battle they are fighting has happened thousands of times over, what are the chances that the Light wins every time and the DO is re-imprisoned? It seems logical that the Dark would win sometimes, the Light other times. Why then has the DO not broken the world in his image in some of the previous turnings of the wheel? Why is this battle special, that the DO can break the wheel?

 

My personal thoughts are that Ishy was just being his insane self and that the battle hasn't happened thousands of times, just this once. Otherwise it seems odd that the DO hadn't won at least on of those battles, especially if the Dragon turned to the shadow, and re-made the world. Also, why is the Dragon always used synonymously with LTT? Why not one of the previous Dragons names? Why not just "the Dragon." Ishy and the other forsaken almost exclusively refer to Rand as Lews Therin, which I find odd.

 

Just something that has always bugged me. I guess I don't like facing the fact that this entire series is just one of a thousand battles that has happened over and over again, I like to think that it is more important than that.

 

Well sure some of it was Ishy trying to scare Rand, most likely some truth to it to.  It is possible the fight has happened thousands of times for instance the portal stones go to many worlds the battle has most likely happened on each one of those with different results.  Ishy certainly seemed to believe it since in the BWB it states writins founs of his after he went over to the shadow indicate "that it was his belief thzat the war between the shadow and the soul of lewis Therin had gone on since the creation, and endless war between the Great Lord of the Dark and the creator using human surrogates."  Some of the Pov of the frosaken i nthe books stated he had mentioned this to them in the past too.  So if it is true or not Ishy certainly thought it was true.

[Jethro]

I think as some others that Ishamael was telling the truth with a few lies slipped in there. I reckon the war has indeed been fought many many times, going off the theme of the entire series, but that the Shadow winning is just another win just like if the Light win, not anything permanent. If he Dark One broke free, he could be imprisoned again somehow. And I think Ishamael used Rands commoner perception of the Last Battle against him, to make him think this one would be the very last, the one that would destroy he Dragons soul or whatever, the one after which there would be no rebirths for the Dragon.