a theory

[agaga]

Okay guys I've been thinking about this for a long time, and have looked through the boards to find something to prove this wrong. I can't find anything maybe I'm just being dense but Maybe not. Here's what I've been thinking

 

Since time in Randland is Circular could it be that the Dark one win's in one of the ages and takes over until the seventh age? Then during the end of the seventh age the creator Appears destroys the wheel himself and then puts it back together and starts it spinning again back at the first age?

 

Like I said this is just something I thought might happen not sure if this has been brought up or if it's not possible but I would love to hear your guy's thoughts on it :)

 

Aggie

[Dark Justice]

Nope. If DO wins, he has won. Cause he will be able to break the wheel and the pattern itself, and create the world in his image. The Creator would after that be pretty much useless.

[agaga]

If the wheel is already broken could the creator not just stuff the DO into his prison and start over? with a new wheel and a new pattern

[Dark Justice]

Once the DO has taken over, Im pretty sure he would not be able to.

[ROB_88]

The Dark Lord would probably kill the Creator along with the wheel

[agaga]

Maybe maybe Like I said before I didn't know if there was something I was missing I just thought with a circular time line the first age would start everything over

 

ROB_88: That's if the DO Could kill the creator when they were both out in the open the Dark one was the one imprisoned not the creator

[CUBAREY]

Maybe maybe Like I said before I didn't know if there was something I was missing I just thought with a circular time line the first age would start everything over

 

The thing is that if the first age started things all over again then you would not have true circular time you would have a series of time "Universes" each with a true beginning and an ending and not truly circular time. Moreover, an indication that RJ intended that the Wheel of Time actually represented Circular time is the fact that he sometimes used the phrase "an Age called the Third Age by some", to describe the Randland Age. Inherent in the use of "called the Third Age by some" is the thought that others (those in different Ages perhaps) might of thought it to be the Fifth Age, or the First Age, etc.. In circular time, since there is no true begiining or ending point whether you believe an age is the Third Age or a different numbered Age depends on your knowledge of preceeding Ages and you perspective not on whether the Age you are talking about was objectively the Third Age or Fifth Age (which in fact would be unknowable). Put another way Randlanders call their age the Third Age only because they have the belief that the people of AOL believed themselves to be in the Second Age (I say believe because I do not remember whether in fact AOL people themselves thought they were living in the Second Age or that "knowledge" is imputed on them by Randlanders because the Randlanders know there was in fact an age prior to the age of AOL).

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

If the wheel is already broken could the creator not just stuff the DO into his prison and start over? with a new wheel and a new pattern

 

Unlikely.  The DO is essentially the antithesis of the creator, but we do not really understand their relationship to each other.  More likely, is that if the DO is strong enough to break free he would have the power to imprison the creator in the remade pattern.

 

Another possibility comes out of what one of the Aes Sedai said, (Verin I think but I am too lazy to flip through my books to find it) To paraphrase, she said that the creator made many worlds, why would he care if this one is destroyed, he moved on from it long ago.

[Mr Ares]

(I say believe because I do not remember whether in fact AOL people themselves thought they were living in the Second Age or that "knowledge" is imputed on them by Randlanders because the Randlanders know there was in fact an age prior to the age of AOL).

The Age of Legends is never actually referred to as the Second Age, nor is the Age before that referred to as the First (it is always the Age before the Age of Legends). Which was actually part of a theory about the AoL being part of the Third Age.

[CUBAREY]

The Age of Legends is never actually referred to as the Second Age, nor is the Age before that referred to as the First (it is always the Age before the Age of Legends). Which was actually part of a theory about the AoL being part of the Third Age.

 

Thanks of the explaination Mr Ares, it explains my confussion on the matter and the AOL as part of the Third Age is intriguing and might explain much.

[agaga]

Okay then I get what you guys are saying thanks for the feedback. it was just something I had been thinking about for a while :)

[Charlz Fel]

 

Another possibility comes out of what one of the Aes Sedai said, (Verin I think but I am too lazy to flip through my books to find it) To paraphrase, she said that the creator made many worlds, why would he care if this one is destroyed, he moved on from it long ago.

 

That was Rand thinking to himself, in either KoD or CoT.  It is not the sort of thing he would have thought about before Lews Therin's influence, but he knows it is his own thought because he can feel Lews Therin nodding in approval.

[bubby]

Yeah, rand thinks that the creator is like a gardener, or something, and he plants the seed, giving it life, then moves on to the next.

 

What if the DO breaks free at some point, DOES remake the wheel and time itself, the creator is imprisoned and things start all over?  What if then, people will be secretly trying to break free that new imprisoned entity, and others will try to stop them from releasing that entity and its plans to break the wheel and remake time in its own image?

[FallingBullets]

what happened if its actually the creator trapped in the prison... :D

[bubby]

yeah, by that little just-thrown-out-there theory, it could be the creator in there right now.  Maybe that has something to do with needing to break the seals?(althought I don't really think that)

[Chel Vanin]

The one thing that has always bugged me about this series is, especially in the first two books, those lines where Ishy/Ba'alzamaon kept saying "we've fought this war countless times" blah blah blah. He also talks about winning every time, and the Dragon being converted to the shadow sometimes, but I usually just took that as Ishy being arrogant, or maybe trying to frighten an inexperienced Rand. IF however, he was correct and the battle they are fighting has happened thousands of times over, what are the chances that the Light wins every time and the DO is re-imprisoned? It seems logical that the Dark would win sometimes, the Light other times. Why then has the DO not broken the world in his image in some of the previous turnings of the wheel? Why is this battle special, that the DO can break the wheel?

 

My personal thoughts are that Ishy was just being his insane self and that the battle hasn't happened thousands of times, just this once. Otherwise it seems odd that the DO hadn't won at least on of those battles, especially if the Dragon turned to the shadow, and re-made the world. Also, why is the Dragon always used synonymously with LTT? Why not one of the previous Dragons names? Why not just "the Dragon." Ishy and the other forsaken almost exclusively refer to Rand as Lews Therin, which I find odd.

 

Just something that has always bugged me. I guess I don't like facing the fact that this entire series is just one of a thousand battles that has happened over and over again, I like to think that it is more important than that.

[Jethro]

Another possibility comes out of what one of the Aes Sedai said, (Verin I think but I am too lazy to flip through my books to find it) To paraphrase, she said that the creator made many worlds, why would he care if this one is destroyed, he moved on from it long ago.

 

It was Rands PoV, it said something like "the Creator is like a gardener. If  plants die, the gardener doesn't mourn, he moves on and plants something else." Rand wonders to himself where that thought came from, doubtful that it is a thought of his own, yet he notes that Lews Therin seemed to have been listening at the same time. There are those who believe it was Moridin, a stray thought floating across via the link. It does sound like an Ishamael-like thought although that obviously doesn't set anything in stone.

[bubby]

No idea if it is moridin, could be.  I am really interested in that map-filled book, the manual or whatever.  People have talked like it says alot about the forsaken, but I also thought I read somewhere that RJ said it was like anyother book, full of assumptions, opinions and bias.  I will read it anyway because I like ishmeal the best out of the characters, although might be the most entertaining.

 

Yeah, if this battle has happened a thousand times, I think thats proof enough that the pattern really does take all into account.  I wouldn't argue against that anyway, even if this was the 2nd age.  The forsaken always complain about how lucky both Rand al thor and LTT are/were.  And everything seems to keep working out for the good, just like in a story.

If the pattern does take all into account then they could fight it over and over and never ever loose, even if the dark one does put a hand in, because the pattern would take that into account too.

 

If the pattern lets the DO win sometimes, then it could be a crazy theory where its the creator in the prison sometimes(or even right now, if you think their world is different enough to be called DO work).  And that would provide for an even more extensive pattern.  And that would allow for some of the LB's to be different than others.

 

One thing I have never heard any mention of, but you just touched on, is why "dragon" and not "lion" or something else?  Must be for a reason, but what reason?  Where did the previous ages get the image of a dragon from for the banner and for the ter'angreal that marks men with dragons.  Did they have dragons?  Do they have dragons in this age somewhere? what do they have to do with Rand?  Does he turn into a dragon, is he the dragon-caller, dragon-rider, hidden-dragon?  Does it have alot to do with the LB?  I think it might, because I don't see someone fighting the DO with the power, and LTT didn't seal the bore so well.  The only other option is the "belief" thing herod fel(is that right?) left in his message for rand.  Belief seems to make up many of the limitations to the power, to me anyway.  And people believe in symbols, a dragon marked man fighting the DO while the dragon and AS banner wave over head, powerful symbols to the hearts and minds of the world, creating much belief.  Especially if Rand has a dragon buddy come eat the DO or something.  The scene from Ghost busters 2 near the end comes to mind.  They use the statue of liberty as a symbol to amp up new york cities positive vibes.

[CUBAREY]

My personal thoughts are that Ishy was just being his insane self and that the battle hasn't happened thousands of times, just this once. Otherwise it seems odd that the DO hadn't won at least on of those battles, especially if the Dragon turned to the shadow, and re-made the world. Also, why is the Dragon always used synonymously with LTT? Why not one of the previous Dragons names? Why not just "the Dragon." Ishy and the other forsaken almost exclusively refer to Rand as Lews Therin, which I find odd.

 

If the battle only happened once (or a few times) then how could time be circular?

 

It seems odd that the only possible outcomes is the DO is freed from his prison or not. In reality there are many "gray" possibilities between those black and white choices. If Rand is able to destoy the patch and reseal the DO in an unpatched prison and neither side of the Power is fouled by the DO's counterstrike this would still permit the DO the chance to be free in the future and would thus not be a total victory for the light.  If the DO's prison is only repatched (in a more frail way then in AOL so the DO's influence could be felt to a greater extent then in most of the Third Age)and Rand is turned to the Dark, the Forsaken stay unbound and alive and all other Channelers are either killed or turned this is not a complete victory for the Dark. There are an infinate intermidiate possibilities between the Darkone being killed and being freed. Since there are only two outcomes that could not have occured in the past (without breaking the wheel of time) and millions of variations in between that could have its not statistically odd that one of those two choices has not occured. 

 

The "Dragon" was one of LTT's nicknames (Lord of the Morning being another) it is not the name given to the Patterns champion in all ages. The Forsaken who lived in the age of AOL new LTT as the Dragon so of course call Rand LTT or the Dragon. The people from the Third Age call him Rand or the Dragon Reborn). Moreover, we do not have any evidence that the Forsaken know the name of the Dragon in the Age immediately prior to AOL so that they do not call Rand by that name is not surprising.

[Jethro]

One thing I have never heard any mention of, but you just touched on, is why "dragon" and not "lion" or something else?

 

I wonder about this myself. All I can recall is that Lews Therin didnt encourage the name of Dragon (I think Ishamael mentions this in EotW prologue) so its something Lews Therin didnt like.

 

Another thing I speculate on is those worms in the Blight, I think it was Demandred who said they are no longer capable of transforming. Transforming?!? This gives Wheel of Time a potential shapeshifter, or even something that evolves at a certain stage like the butterfly (formerly a caterpillar). Could the worm (similar to wyrm, a common name for dragons) transform into a dragon? Saying that though, I do find this an unlikelihood seeing as the Dragon on Lews Therins banner is quite a majestic thing. I also remember Demandred or whoever laughing at the fact that Third Agers called these creatures worms, this hints that they could have been extremely dangerous even to AoLers.

 

The question remains; what do-or did-those Worms transform into?

[pxnsolid]

I think it was Demandred who said they are no longer capable of transforming.

 

Sammel

[Chel Vanin]

If the DO's prison is only repatched (in a more frail way then in AOL so the DO's influence could be felt to a greater extent then in most of the Third Age)and Rand is turned to the Dark, the Forsaken stay unbound and alive and all other Channelers are either killed or turned this is not a complete victory for the Dark. There are an infinate intermidiate possibilities between the Darkone being killed and being freed.

 

Thats the thing though, even if the DO's prison is repatched, if the Dragon goes evil its impossible for tarmon gai'don to be won by the Light (unless the Prophecies only pertain to this certain fight, and there are other prophecies for other turnnings?). So, even if by some miracle the forces of Light manage to re-patch the DO's prison without their champion, if the Forsaken are left unbound or evil Rand is left unbound then would they not re-drill the bore? It seems to me the the Lights only chance of survival is to either A.) Completely re-seal the DO away like the Creator did in the beginning, or B.) re-seal the prison and all who have knowledge of creating a hole in his prison (pretty much just the Forsaken.)

 

I suppose drilling the bore took a considerable amount of channelers, and strong ones, so the only way to RE-drill  it would require quite a lot of Darkfriends who could channel. Not to hijack this but this gives me a thought which has probably been mentioned at some point, but oh well. Could the Darkfriend Asha'man, Black Ajah  and all the forsaken get together and attmept to re-drill the bore? I don't even know if thats possible but it seems like it should be if they did it in the AOL, certainly Lanfear would have the knowledge of how it happened the first time. If its not possible could someone tell me why?

[Majsju]

 

 

I suppose drilling the bore took a considerable amount of channelers, and strong ones, so the only way to RE-drill  it would require quite a lot of Darkfriends who could channel. Not to hijack this but this gives me a thought which has probably been mentioned at some point, but oh well. Could the Darkfriend Asha'man, Black Ajah  and all the forsaken get together and attmept to re-drill the bore? I don't even know if thats possible but it seems like it should be if they did it in the AOL, certainly Lanfear would have the knowledge of how it happened the first time. If its not possible could someone tell me why?

 

From the looks of it, it took two channelers to drill the bore, Mierin and Beidomon.

Lanfear would of course have the theoretical knowledge how to do it, but we do not know how much AOL technology that was used. If it was a great deal, re-drilling is not really an option as the world looks today, considering at the current level of technology means that they do not have the tools to make the tools...

[Luckers]

One thing I have never heard any mention of, but you just touched on, is why "dragon" and not "lion" or something else?

 

Presumably he was given the name because he used that as his personal symbol. Keep in mind that the 'Dragon' is a title Lews Therin wore, not something used to name the soul that fights for the Light. The AoL's had no idea Lews Therin was that soul--the only reason the Third Agers are aware is because of the Foretelling and Graendal states that that has never happened before--not the rebirth of a specific soul.

 

Effectively the word Dragon came to be associated with that soul because Lews Therin used it, not that it came to be used for Lews Therin because it is the name of that soul.

 

Beyond that? Why does Andor use a lion and not a bear? The only banners i can think of that relate to the actual reality of the people who bear them are Perrin's wolf banner and the ancient Aes Sedai symbol (which represents the way saidin and saidar work together yet fight each other).

 

Thats the thing though, even if the DO's prison is repatched, if the Dragon goes evil its impossible for tarmon gai'don to be won by the Light (unless the Prophecies only pertain to this certain fight, and there are other prophecies for other turnnings?). So, even if by some miracle the forces of Light manage to re-patch the DO's prison without their champion, if the Forsaken are left unbound or evil Rand is left unbound then would they not re-drill the bore? It seems to me the the Lights only chance of survival is to either A.) Completely re-seal the DO away like the Creator did in the beginning, or B.) re-seal the prison and all who have knowledge of creating a hole in his prison (pretty much just the Forsaken.)

 

I suppose drilling the bore took a considerable amount of channelers, and strong ones, so the only way to RE-drill  it would require quite a lot of Darkfriends who could channel. Not to hijack this but this gives me a thought which has probably been mentioned at some point, but oh well. Could the Darkfriend Asha'man, Black Ajah  and all the forsaken get together and attmept to re-drill the bore? I don't even know if thats possible but it seems like it should be if they did it in the AOL, certainly Lanfear would have the knowledge of how it happened the first time. If its not possible could someone tell me why?

 

There is another thing involved here though--recall that the War of the Power was begun when Lews Therin stopped Darkfriends from opening the bore further--that seems to suggest that it is relatively easy to stop or blunt attempts to bore at the pattern provided you know they are coming--presumably because it required something that Lews Therin destroyed, some form of ter'angreal perhaps--recall that RJ stated that manufacturing plants were hit hard during the early days of the war resulting in the loss of many of the more complex forms of technology.

 

If such is the case it explains why no further effort has been made to open the bore further--or at least why such an effort failed--if it required merely channelers channeling then Lanfear certainly could have achieved it.

 

From the looks of it, it took two channelers to drill the bore, Mierin and Beidomon.

 

No, the Guide says there were other members of the team that drilled the bore, though history does not remember their names. Either way its probably unlikely that it took a lot of channelers.

[Majsju]

 

 

No, the Guide says there were other members of the team that drilled the bore, though history does not remember their names. Either way its probably unlikely that it took a lot of channelers.

 

I am talking about the actual drilling. In TSR, it is said that Mierin and beidomon where the ones who were going to tap into the new power they had discovered, which I take as meaning they were the ones to actually drill the Bore. That there were others involved, that would be the research team discovering the thinness in the Pattern.

Since Lanfear was on the research tem, there would be no need to discover it again.