logain/taim/black tower stuff

[Sab]

Well holding half of the most powerful thing ever created helped.  Rand beat Rhavin only because Nyenene got involved and made him a human torch.  3 times he beat Ishy but killed him each time by stabbing him.  Rand hasn't beat any of the Forsaken with any devestating weavings, most the things he did early on he did without even knowing what he was doing.  Sammael was about to get balefired before getting eaten.

Taim doesn't have access to the most powerful channeling devices created, doesn't have LTT in his head, far we know doesn't know balefire, and doesn't have being a tavern working for him either.

 

I could say show proof Taim could beat Asmo or any the other Forsaken. 

[Jethro]

I think Taim would be better equipped for any Forsaken than, say, Moiraine. All you need do is land the killing blow; Moiraine didnt do anything that worked better against Bel'al than against anyone else. Since men are usually stronger in Earth and Fire, which could be said to be the more obviously destructive elements, and also since Taim is on the "almost as strong as Rand" level, which Moiraine doesnt even come close to, then I would say Taim definitely has a chance against the Chosen. All Moiraine had was the element of surprise, which anyone can get. Granted, it is slightly more likely that he would be defeated than be vicorious, but absolutely no way is it a certainty.

[pxnsolid]

I could say show proof Taim could beat Asmo or any the other Forsaken.

 

i say show proof he couldnt. hes strong and he knows how to kill with the power. all he needs really, relative strength has seemed to "mostly" determine such things.

[Gentled Ben]

Well holding half of the most powerful thing ever created helped.

Who was holding the other half of it? Doesn't that bring us back to square one, and I thought your point was about knowledge anyway, and not about strength.  ???

3 times he beat Ishy but killed him each time by stabbing him.

He only killed him once, in the Stone of Tear, and in doing so, he did not stab him.

Rand hasn't beat any of the Forsaken with any devestating weavings,

He balefired Rahvin. Do we know of any weave more devastating?

most the things he did early on he did without even knowing what he was doing.

Isn't this counter to your point, which was that Taim lacked enough knowledge to defeat Asmodean?

Sammael was about to get balefired

There's that devastating weave again...

Taim doesn't have access to the most powerful channeling devices created,

Neither do the Forsaken, and what difference does that make? Again, this was supposed to be about knowledge, not strength.

doesn't have LTT in his head

How is not necessarily being insane a disadvantage? Most of the time, Les Therin is quiet, and most of the time that he is speaking, he is saying something suicidal, not teaching Rand how to weave. In fact, he seems to have "taught" Rand very little, beyond breaking a shield and three weaves in KoD, none of which Rand knew when he defeated Asmodean...

far we know doesn't know balefire

As far as we know, he doesn't have to know balefire in order to defeat Asmodean; Rand defeated him without it.

and doesn't have being a tavern working for him either.

Which again, isn't knowledge. How does being or not being ta'veren relate to whether or not Taim has enough knowledge to defeat Asmodean?  ???

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Enough with the 'show proof'--and yes, i know i started it. My tongue gets away from me sometimes.

 

Well holding half of the most powerful thing ever created helped.  Rand beat Rhavin only because Nyenene got involved and made him a human torch.  3 times he beat Ishy but killed him each time by stabbing him.  Rand hasn't beat any of the Forsaken with any devestating weavings, most the things he did early on he did without even knowing what he was doing.  Sammael was about to get balefired before getting eaten.

Taim doesn't have access to the most powerful channeling devices created, doesn't have LTT in his head, far we know doesn't know balefire, and doesn't have being a tavern working for him either.

 

Gentled Ben got most of the specific points, but ill raise a generic one--on the whole your argument doesn't work. It's a fallacy--you are attempting to say Rand only just managed these things and thats with all that extra stuff involved, therefore Taim couldn't have managed it.

 

Can you see the problem with your logic? Your assuming Rand and Taim are at the same level of knowledge and ability--yet to the contrary if our ideas about his past are true (and if we are discussing this in relevance to him being raised Chosen we must assume they are or its all void) then Taim has had years of training from one of the Forsaken. Even if Ishamael held back knowledge--which he probably did--that still means Taim has better control and dexterity than Rand.

 

None of your points speak anything to Taim's skill or knowledge. None of your points really speak to Taim at all. And that is what we are discussing. We'd need a reliable comparison between their respective abilities for any of this to be relevant, and we simply don't have that.

 

I could say show proof Taim could beat Asmo or any the other Forsaken. 

 

You couldn't really... your the one hardballing on Taim's lack of skills, though i suspect his knowledge is by far more broad than you are giving him credit for i have no need to sustain his being greater than the Forsaken in terms of knowledge or skill.

 

I do however continue to question your blanket assessments of Taim's abilities--lacking any evidence to allow us to compare him to either the Forsaken or Rand we have no idea where he is at. With that in mind the fact that he was trained by one of the Forsaken suggests a very great degree of skill. And yes, that does mean he is potentially more talented then some of the Forsaken.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

My tongue gets away from me sometimes.

Word of advice - I find typing is usually easier when fingers are used.

[Casco]

Then how do you explain his ordering of darkfriends? And specific commands too, commands sent down from Moridin--if not the Dark One himself. Or how do you explain his knowledge and repitition of forsaken mannerism--the 'so-called Aiel', the tiling in his palace, the 'hand holding three lightning bolts' symbol, the use of the Lord of Chaos phrase?

Well, many DF are commanded by non DF chars. Taim can command any DF to do things that dont have anything to do with the DFs mission. If you havent forgot, Rand did command the 3 DF asámans for a long time before they did try to kill him. Taim is a very evil guy..but i still think he is crazy from the taint and want to rule the world. The differents between Logain and Taim is that Logain is a good fella and sane, and Taim is evil and insane.

its only guessing ofc.

 

 

Egwene dreamed of Logain stepping over Rand's corpse, not killing him. Most interpret that to say that after Rand apparently dies Logain will take charge of the Black Tower--the glory coming to him. None of that relates to Taim.

Egwene dreamed of seeing Rand dead on the ground, and Logain step over him. Egwene did toutch his face and it fell apart like paper. She dreams in symbolic ways, the face who fall apart like paper COULD mean that Rand wasnt Rand at all, but did look as it was Rand. My guess is that it is Taim, with a mask of Rand (created with the power)to fool Logain. Logain sees this and kill him.

Why would Taim want to look like Rand?? To rule the world ofc, and to get even more power :) In some way Rand might be "away" for a while and Taim takes the chanse when Rand dont know about it, or that Taim think he is dead/captured.

Only my guess ofc.

 

 

[Sab]

It was about knowledge.  Hard to think how any one of this age can out knowledge someone from the AoL.  Not can a Forsaken be defeated, but do people from this age know a few things the Forsaken don't? Sure they do.  But can someone with at most 15 years of channeling, have more knowledge then someone at the height of what the power can do with probably like a hundred years of channeling?  Making weaves you have no idea how you did it or how to do it again is hardly considered knowledge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

Sab, now you're changing the argument from "Resolved, that  Taim does not have enough knowledge to defeat Asmodean," to "Resolved, that Taim does not have as much knowledge as Asmodean." No one is disputing the latter, although we have no proof of it--Ishy may well have imparted an equal or greater amount of knowledge to Taim than what Asmodean possessed, but we are definitely disputing your first assertion, that Taim could not defeat Asmodean because he does not know enough.

 

It is okay to concede your original point and fall back on a safer position to save a little face, like, "Okay, he might know enough to beat Asmo, as knowledge isn't everything, but he probably doesn't know as much as Asmodean did, so I think Asmodean would have had a distinct advantage in any duel with Taim."  ;)

I have certainly been shot down on this forum before.  :P

 

EDIT: Wait, now that I re-read your argument, it is only that Taim does not know nearly as much as Asmodean did, which could still be disputed, as we have no idea how much either of them know/knew, but I seem to have gone astray, myself.  :-[

Well, had I been addressing the actual argument with the points I made, I would have had the better of you.  :D

[Sab]

LOL well discussions here in the forums do tend to go off point, adds t othe excitement.  Orginally I was stating knowledge then everything sort of took off from there. :) Towards the end I even lost track of what I was orginally going for and had to go back and look at it myself.

[Luckers]

Well, many DF are commanded by non DF chars. Taim can command any DF to do things that dont have anything to do with the DFs mission. If you havent forgot, Rand did command the 3 DF asámans for a long time before they did try to kill him. Taim is a very evil guy..but i still think he is crazy from the taint and want to rule the world. The differents between Logain and Taim is that Logain is a good fella and sane, and Taim is evil and insane.

its only guessing ofc.

 

Yet, as i raised in the very comment you are repsonding to, Taim not only commanded Darkfriends, he commanded them in concordance with the Shadow's edict. RJ even transposes his orders with Demandred's and Moridin's to make a point of it.

 

It was about knowledge.  Hard to think how any one of this age can out knowledge someone from the AoL.  Not can a Forsaken be defeated, but do people from this age know a few things the Forsaken don't? Sure they do.  But can someone with at most 15 years of channeling, have more knowledge then someone at the height of what the power can do with probably like a hundred years of channeling?  Making weaves you have no idea how you did it or how to do it again is hardly considered knowledge.

 

Which is not a repsonse to any of the above. We all agree with what you just said--but, if as you say in your next post, that is what you originally were trying to say, then thats cool.

 

There is something interesting in all that, however... specifically you asked if Taim, with at best 15 years of training (and more probably less than 10) could out-knowledge someone from the Age of Legends. Obviously the Age of Legenders have specific areas of expertise to which they'd dedicated their studies and in which its unlikely any could meet (just the same as no Forsaken except maybe Ishamael could out-knowledge a Brown in the modern world)... but in general knowledge of the Power? Egwene has learnt everything of the power known to the Aes Sedai as well as all drawn from Moghedian in around a year and a half. Yes, she was forced, but could not Taim who is stronger than she have learnt everything Ishamael was willing to teach in that time?

 

Skill, dexterity--these things matter with the power. And Taim, given his teachers, would have that. Even if Ishamael did hold things back, he'd have that.

[Thor]

asmodean can pewpew with lazers giving taim loads of girly heart tatoos so he wins by default.

 

anyways, i'm still convinced that it's definitely a kill from egwene's dream.  if it isn't a kill she wouldn't have been able to touch the face, the guy on the floor would have suddenly opened his eyes and scared the heck out of egwene.

[Luckers]

... I don't even know how to respond to that.

[Sab]

I always considered Taim sort of like Alviarin (who if I remember right is the head of the BA).  Both control the DF's in their towers while taking orders from the Choosen.

[Thor]

... I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

why you don't think asmodean can give people girly heart tatoos?  if he can give couladin dragon tatoos, he can for sure give girly heart tatoos also.

[schizm]

I think the conflict between Taim and Logain will come about because Rand will no longer be able to ignore what is going on at the BT. The problem is he cannot go himslef because he has too much to do already, so who better to send than Logain?

 

I think he'll send Logain because of the same reasons he used taim, to make weapons. Now that the weapons were made, they need someone to look over them. Rand cannot with everything he has on his plate, so again who better than Logain? He would instantly command respect of the Asha'man not loyal to Taim.

 

I also think that Logain has started to prove himself by following Rands orders, going to the Seanchan, going to the Sea Folk with Rands commands. Plus I think he'll play a major role in the final book in Arad Doman.

[Luckers]

... I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

why you don't think asmodean can give people girly heart tatoos?  if he can give couladin dragon tatoos, he can for sure give girly heart tatoos also.

 

Probably prefers too as well. Lol. No, i meant the lazerbeam eyes. The very concept of an Asmodean with lazer eyes scares me. If someone like that could be so badass...

 

 

[Jethro]

Visions of superman spring to mind.

[Thor]

....

 

the lazer part is supposed to indicate that the tatoos are permanent, not that they shoot around for fun..