logain/taim/black tower stuff

[animals]

im wondereing HOW the excpected conflict between logain and taim will happen

[Alderthal]

Taim: Asha'man Logain, the M'Hael - that's me if you don't remember, see the dragons on my sleeves, spiffy ain't they? - is parched. Go get me some water.

 

Logain: Blood and Ashes! First I'm a flaming fly-whisk, now I'm the water boy? The Dark One take you! *BF Taim and darkfriends*

 

Taim: Yarg!

 

Heh, sorry, it's 7 AM over here and I'm still sleepy. I have no clue how it'll go down, but it's a scene I'm anticipating with great excitement.

[erickm001]

im wondereing HOW the excpected conflict between logain and taim will happen

 

Assuming there will be such a battle. I'm still not convinced Taim is darkfriend/dreadlord. Yes, I know he apparently ordered Rand killed  and his comment about letting the lord of chaos rule in the last book, but at Dumai's Wells he was just too cool, and saved al'Thor's butt. I think he's like Elaida -- dangerous, reckless, and a fool -- but not sold out to the dark. And there's a certain symmetry there -- Elaida head of the white tower, Taim head of the black tower.

 

I like Taim. One of my favorite characters as a matter of fact.

 

(We'll all find out for certain in just a few short months.....)

[Jethro]

Taim saved Rand because the Chosen have orders that Rand must stay alive, that he must not be harmed. We learned this from the Watchers PoV when he overheard Sammael and Graendal talking about Rands capture. Also, I think one of Taims objectives is to create friction between male and female channelers, and Aes Sedai capturing Rand gives Taim an excuse to go to extreme measures. "Kneel and swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn, or you will be knelt."

[Mockingbird]

I forsee a Brokeback Mountain style-"I wish I could quit you" followed by Logain BFing Taim after he learns that Taim has been cheating on him with the entire black tower.

[Cockta]

I lol'd.

[Jethro]

I forsee a Brokeback Mountain style-"I wish I could quit you" followed by Logain BFing Taim after he learns that Taim has been cheating on him with the entire black tower.

 

Oh no Taims favorites are gay! That explains Taims comment of "Bond those will let you" as well as "let the lord of chaos rule!" Taims half-smile is when he 's checking Rand out and it also fits well with his hostility towards Aes Sedai!

[mb]

I also am not yet convinced of Taim being a darkfriend.

If he was, he might have probably knew that Dashiva (Osangar's alias) was actually one of the resurrected Forsaken.

Taim seems to me more as a self-centered person than as a darkfriend.

 

And I am not sure if there would be a fight between Logain and Taim.

There might be a chance that Taim's death would result in some battle or one of the Forsaken might send the gholam to get Taim or that Taim might die in some crossfire.  Taim's death could be any number of circumstances.

 

[erickm001]

Taim saved Rand because the Chosen have orders that Rand must stay alive, that he must not be harmed. We learned this from the Watchers PoV when he overheard Sammael and Graendal talking about Rands capture.

 

But this is not proof. It may also have been the Tiam was being loyal to his oaths.

 

Also, I think one of Taims objectives is to create friction between male and female channelers, and Aes Sedai capturing Rand gives Taim an excuse to go to extreme measures. "Kneel and swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn, or you will be knelt."

 

"Kneel and swear fealty to the the Dragon Reborn, or you will be knelt". Great line, one of the best in the series. This is one of the best thing that happened to Rand. It firmly put the Aes Sedia in their place, and they do indeed help Rand.

 

Throughout the series Rand has treated Tiam quite badly, in my opinion. Tiam has done what he's ordered to do, such as delivering Ashasman to various battle zones. He's worked very hard to make an army of Ashaman. And, apparently, Rand still trust him enough to run the Black Tower.

 

 

 

[Thor]

I also am not yet convinced of Taim being a darkfriend.

If he was, he might have probably knew that Dashiva (Osangar's alias) was actually one of the resurrected Forsaken.

Taim seems to me more as a self-centered person than as a darkfriend.

 

And I am not sure if there would be a fight between Logain and Taim.

There might be a chance that Taim's death would result in some battle or one of the Forsaken might send the gholam to get Taim or that Taim might die in some crossfire.  Taim's death could be any number of circumstances.

 

 

Taim does know of Dashiva's identity or at least that he was a darkfriend, which is why he was surprised when Rand chose Dashiva (most probably due to LTT's subconscious).

[Yuven]

Hasn't Taim ordered Rand dead?

[Jethro]

Yes, he did, Kismans PoV confirms it just before Fain cuts him. Im also for some reason recalling Kisman using the term "the Great Lord" in his thoughts, am I right or wrong? Anyway, I find it hard to believe that Taim gave an order that falls in with both Demandreds AND Moridins, uses the term so-called Aiel in the right context, AND makes all his favorites laugh when he uses words that fit the Great Lords own command to the Chosen, without being loyal to the Shadow. Now THAT is stretching coincedence further than I can handle. Maybe they wanted him to be super covert and didnt make him a proper Darkfriend, just in case the Light found a way to tell, but I find it extremely hard to believe he isnt working for the Shadow.

[CUBAREY]

And, apparently, Rand still trust him enough to run the Black Tower.

 

 

A decision which Logain (which Min's vision vouches for not being a darkfriend) who actually has spent a considerable time with Taim vehemently disagrees with. Further, Rand himself only is of the opinion that dealing with Taim will have to wait not that Taim can be trusted.

[Jethro]

Rand has already acknowledged Taim as a potential Darkfriend. When he gave the order for Logain, Loial and Bashere to go to the Seanchan, in that conversation Logain voices his opinion about Taim and Bashere mentions attempts have been made to steal the Seals. Rand says to Bashere "When an enemy offers you two targets..." and Bashere finishes with "strike a third." And then Rand talks about this agreement with the Seanchan. Taim is the first target, the Seals are the second, and the Seanchan were the third. Rand links Taim and the attempts on the Seals. Not necessarily close enough to think Taim ordered the Seals to be stolen, but that they could both be down to the Shadow. Cant blame him either.

[Luckers]

You've also got to keep in mind that Logain has done nothing but irritate Rand since arriving--and whilst Rand is pretty immature about insults these days Logain's refusal to believe that Rand cleansed saidin speaks for itself.

 

By which i mean, if Logain is so blindly convinced against Rand in something Rand knows he did, then why should he believe Logain when he is blindly convinced against Taim?

 

As for Taim though, he is a darkfriend. That at least is set in stone--both by his commanding of known darkfriends in following the orders issued by the shadow, and in his mirroring of the mannerisms of Forsaken. In point of fact is seems very likely that he has been raised to the level of Chosen himself, but thats another discussion.

[mb]

As for Taim though, he is a darkfriend. That at least is set in stone--both by his commanding of known darkfriends in following the orders issued by the shadow, and in his mirroring of the mannerisms of Forsaken.

 

No, it is not set in stone.  There are reasons to doubt it::

-We have not seen Taim reporting to any of the Forsaken.

-None of the Forsaken have given any opinion of Taim.

-No one (especially ones who swore the no-untrue oath on the Oath Rod) has claimed Taim to be a darkfriend.

 

[Luckers]

Those are not reasons to doubt it, they are simply things that have not as yet occured. You might as easily say Taim is not a Darkfriend because we havn't seem him kill Rand and lead the Shadow to victory--that it has not occured and would be something a Darkfriend would do does not mean that it is a reason to doubt the things that have occured.

[erickm001]

im wondereing HOW the excpected conflict between logain and taim will happen

 

Single combat. Logain calls out Taim in front of his cronies. Taim can't refuse without losing face. Why Logain would do this I'm not sure. Maybe Taim is mistreating Aes Sedia. Maybe Logain discovers he is indeed a darkfriend.

 

There's been lots of combat between channelers in WOT, but never single combat -- Like Galad and Valda, without the swords.

 

I still don't think Taim is a darkfriend, but if he is this is the way I'd like to see it go down.

[Luckers]

Given that the Shadow does not seem to have a large number of channelers on their side compared to the light it seems likely that Taim and his people will escape the confrontation largely unscathed--indeed, i would say that they likely instigate it--possibly assasinating the men and boys that remain on the Black Tower's grounds--after all nothing in the Black tower being rent in blood and fire says its an equal fight. Nor does Logain's glory have to involve him defeating Taim, though in the long run i suspect it will be him that takes Taim out.

 

 

[Casco]

My guess is:

Taim is totaly insane for power. He will try to kill Logain, masked as Rand to fool him. Logain will in some way se that its not the real Rand and the fight will start.

He kills Taim, and will be the new Ma´Hel. The fight will occure infront of the big black stone at the Black Tower. After Taim dies Logain will stand on the rock and explain for all the ash,amans whats happend.

This will explain the vision from Egwen, and Min.

 

English isnt my language, but i hope you understand :)

[motblades]

 

Single combat. Logain calls out Taim in front of his cronies. Taim can't refuse without losing face. Why Logain would do this I'm not sure.

 

 

I have a theory on why Logain would call Taim out. 

 

Remember in KoD that Rand sends an Asha'man to the rebel Aes Sedai and offers them the opportunity to bond 43 men channelers (not entirely sure on that number but I know it's pretty close).  At the end of KoD, we see a group of Reds approach Taim and ask to do the same thing. 

 

I see Taim causing the deal with the Aes Sedai to be broken by either allowing more than the requisite number of men to be bonded or by bonding the Red Aes Sedai without permission. 

 

I think Logain will find out about the new bondings and call Taim out on the fact that he did not follow the DR's orders.  Taim will act haughty as the M'Hail and Logain will challenge him for the title.

 

Don't know, really.  Just idle speculation. 

[Sab]

Most likely when the last battle happens Taim's forces will try to kill off Logain's forces in the BT, thus making Elaida's vision of "the Black tower being rent in blood and fire".  If Taim and Logain come face to face during this most like Taim will be slain.

 

As for when Taim became a DF, think he was turned when Osan'gar was placed in the tower.  Since would make no sense to place a Forsaken there if Taim had already turned to the shadow.  I still see Taim as a Sammael/Demandred type, seduced to the shadow by his jealousy of Rand and feeling his was superior.  Rand is getting the glory and Taim most likely feels he is doing all the work.

[Cockta]

HEY MAYBE TAIM ONLY WANTS POWER FOR HIMSELF INSTEAD OF BEING RULED BY RAND??????

 

I don't think so. If he wanted power, he would have gone to the DO.

[mb]

Those are not reasons to doubt it, they are simply things that have not as yet occured. You might as easily say Taim is not a Darkfriend because we havn't seem him kill Rand and lead the Shadow to victory--that it has not occured and would be something a Darkfriend would do does not mean that it is a reason to doubt the things that have occured.

 

I think the points I gave are reasons to doubt Taim being a darkfriend.  Following are my explanations::

First point:  all darkfriends (from my knowledge) report to at least one Forsaken.

Second point:  darkfriends (from my knowledge) generally have favor in the Forsaken's eyes.  Since Taim has not been mentioned by any of the Forsaken, we do not know if he has favor in their eyes.

Third point:  darkfriends would generally be confirmed to be so by ones that swore the oath on the Oath Rod.

 

 

HEY MAYBE TAIM ONLY WANTS POWER FOR HIMSELF INSTEAD OF BEING RULED BY RAND??????

 

I don't think so. If he wanted power, he would have gone to the DO.

 

Not necessarily.  There seems plenty of characters that have thirsted for some kind of power that have not gone to the Dark One.

 

[Luckers]

I think the points I gave are reasons to doubt Taim being a darkfriend.  Following are my explanations::

First point:  all darkfriends (from my knowledge) report to at least one Forsaken.

Second point:  darkfriends (from my knowledge) generally have favor in the Forsaken's eyes.  Since Taim has not been mentioned by any of the Forsaken, we do not know if he has favor in their eyes.

Third point:  darkfriends would generally be confirmed to be so by ones that swore the oath on the Oath Rod.

 

And my point was that that we have not seen them happen does not mean that they have not, and that the fact that we have not seem them happen is as such irrelevant. For instance, we have never seen Elza report to any of the Forsaken, nor has any of the Forsaken mentioned her, nor have we seen any character sworn by the Oath Rod not to speak a lie claim she is a darkfriend--yet she is.

 

We have no Taim POV's, nor POV's of Forsaken near Taim. Why would we have seen such things as you suggest? Nor are any Aes Sedai in Taim's confidence--why would any of them know to speak of his guilt?

 

They are not reasons to doubt that he is a darkfriend, they are things a darkfriend would do. There is a distinction in that; specifically, Taim is probably doing all those things off screen.

 

Of what we have seen him do there is enough to state that he is a Darkfriend.