Woman Dead and Gone

[mb]

Many have debated about this viewing.

Before telling who might fulfill it, I shall examine it.

The full viewing is as follows::

"Rand would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone."

 

"without" part; the following phrases might fit:

-"without the guidance of"

-"without the advice of"

-"without the teaching of"

-"without being taught by"

-"without the presence of"

-"without the companionship of"

-"without the love of"

-"without being married to"

-"without being bonded to"

-"without fathering the children of"

And perhaps many more phrases might also fit.

 

"fail" part; these meanings might be possible:

-die

-face defeat

-not get wants

-not fulfill prophecy

-not fulfill fate

And perhaps also other meanings.

 

"dead" part; that word also has different meanings:

-physically without life

-separated from the lands of the living

-not showing the appearance of life

And maybe also others.

 

"gone" part, these meanings I came up with:

-away from his presence

-away from any person

-not showing existence

-not appearing to any person

 

Whatever the meanings for "dead" and "gone", the person will come back (or has came back).

 

Now possible candidates::

-Moiraine: she has been separated from the lands of the living and has been gone (almost any of the mentioned meanings).

-Aviendha: she was killed (by Rahvin then came back when Rand did balefire on him) and has been sent away from him (and by him) some time after.

Some site speculated Cadsuane; though she was not dead.

 

[ROB_88]

i don't think it's like that at all.

The way the sentence is worded seems to imply that this are Min's own words, not a description of the viewing but a subjective interpretation.

 

she knows the viewing is about Moiraine, and she "knows" that Moiraine is dead, so she change the wording to say that it is all impossible in some strange way

[Pixiedragon]

I have to agree with Rob 88, Min doesn't do prophecies.

She sees images which she interprets.

And upon seeing Moiraine's face hovering around Rand, I bet she'd think something like that.

[Luckers]

I agree with Rob88 and Pixiedragon--though i would specify thatMin's viewings occaisonally come with exact descriptions--like Alivia 'helping Rand die' as opposed to killing him. Irrespective Min's comments are clearly subjective--the comments make clear that the viewing was about some task Moiraine needed to perform, not about a dead woman aiding Rand.

 

The comments we Min's thoughts. She'd had a viewing of Moiraine doing something important that Rand required to succeed, and he belief that Moiraine had died undercut that. Hence her thoughts that Rand needed someone dead and gone.

 

Incidently, Mb, who besides you have suggested Cadsuane, or indeed debated this issue? I only recall your specific thread... ?

[mb]

she knows the viewing is about Moiraine, and she "knows" that Moiraine is dead, so she change the wording to say that it is all impossible in some strange way

 

From what I read so far, nothing suggests that the viewing is explicitly about Moiraine.  Moiraine might be one person that may fulfill it; but until we get more info, there could be any number of candidates.

Min actually believes Moiraine is dead, not know for certain.

 

 

Incidently, Mb, who besides you have suggested Cadsuane, or indeed debated this issue? I only recall your specific thread... ?

 

About Cadsuane, I do not remember where.

About who debated this, it was included in a number of different threads.

 

[Majsju]

Mb, if you continue reading the same chapter, just a few more pages in, you have Min thinking how her viewing about Moiraine being the only one one that had ever failed. If the woman dead and gone would be someone other than Moiraine, the number of failed viewings would be two.

 

[mb]

Mb, if you continue reading the same chapter, just a few more pages in, you have Min thinking how her viewing about Moiraine being the only one one that had ever failed. If the woman dead and gone would be someone other than Moiraine, the number of failed viewings would be two.

 

That to me seems unconnected to the viewing, at this moment.  Caroline Damodred was what prompted the thought.

From previous scenes in this series (and from seemingly unconnected scenes afterward), Moiraine seems to be coming back anyway.

 

[Majsju]

Eh...

 

Rands dependancy on a woman dead and gone seems an awful lot like, wait for it...A failed viewing.

And Incidently, Min flat out states that she has only had one viewing ever to have failed, one about Moiraine.

 

That is quite a connection.

[Darth_Andrea]

It's really simple, Moraine was the catalysts for Rands dead women list in his head. That list above all has done things to his mind that have dragged him down a spiral that will lead to failure. He has as it has been put, forgotten how to Laugh and Cry. Her return will break him emotionally enough for him to rebuild much of what he has lost and allow him to be the MAN he is supposed to be. Not the block of stone he thinks he has to be.

 

 

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea       

[DemandredFO]

mb, when min knows something she knows.

[Mr Ares]

"without" part; the following phrases might fit:

"fail" part; these meanings might be possible:

"dead" part; that word also has different meanings:

"gone" part, these meanings I came up with:

What about "woman"? What could that refer to? And, like everyone else, I agree that Min is referring to Moiraine.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on December 20, 2008, 06:15:00 AM

Incidently, Mb, who besides you have suggested Cadsuane, or indeed debated this issue? I only recall your specific thread... ?

 

About Cadsuane, I do not remember where.

About who debated this, it was included in a number of different threads.

 

Awesome. Which threads?

 

Also, can you find the Cadsuane threads for us--you cited several, and there is a search function.

 

 

[Jethro]

Actually, Mins viewing of Rand failing without Moiraine isnt a failed viewing, because as it stands Rand could still lose if she doesnt turn up. The viewing hasnt failed yet because its time hasnt passed.

 

Mins viewing that she thought had failed is of Moiraine and Thoms marriage, she had a metaphoric viewing of Thom pulling Moiraines blue stone from a fire IIRC, one of those which is an image but she knows what it means. Thats the one she thinks has failed

[Pixiedragon]

Where did you get that explanation that Thom+blue stone stands for them marrying?

[Majsju]

1. Thom pulling Moiraines stone out of a fire is one of Egwenes dreams, not one of Mins viewings.

 

2. This refers to Thoms involvment in saving Moiraine from the 'finns, not their eventual marriage.

 

3. If Min had a viewing she knew meant that Rand would fail without Moiraines help, Mins belief that Moiraine is dead and gone makes it a failed viewing for her. She does not have the information we readers have.

[DemandredFO]

I hope this woman dead and gone thing and failed viewing doesn't become something like the Asmo threads.

[Jethro]

Well, maybe the images I mentioned were wrong but Mins viewing about Thom and Moiraine marrying is the one she thinks has failed, obviously because she thinks Moiraine is dead.

 

Rand failing without Moiraine isnt the sort of viewing that can fail anyway, since its an "if." If certain conditions are met, something bad happens. I interpret this as if Rand doesnt get Moiraine back and finally drop this bollocks about women dying for him before his significant part of the Last Battle, then he will push himself over the edge and lose. He still has time for her to return, which means that viewing is still open to "succeed" or "fail."

[Pixiedragon]

But there is no viewing from Min that Thom and Moiraine marry.

 

There's just one viewing of Min about Thom I think?

 

Encyclopaedia WoT.

# TEotW,Ch15 - Min has a viewing of Thom - A man - not him - juggling fire, and the White Tower.

 

So, where's Moiraine and Thom in that? :\

[Mr Ares]

But there is no viewing from Min that Thom and Moiraine marry.

You might want to read this: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=13

[Majsju]

You might want to read this: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=13

 

Guesswork. Granted, it does have a wee bit of support, but only if you allow for assumptions to make up a good deal of the evidence.

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I grant Min probably had a viewing of Thom at a later point, mayhaps a marriage.  But the viewing of the woman dead and gone is Moiraine, I am 99.9% sure.  The only reason I am not 100% sure is I haven't gone back and read that section yet to provide exact details.

[Gentled Ben]

I hope this woman dead and gone thing and failed viewing doesn't become something like the Asmo threads.

It is inevitable, as Moiraine killed Asmodean.  :P

[Shard]

Whatever the meanings for "dead" and "gone", the person will come back (or has came back).

 

Now possible candidates::

-Moiraine: she has been separated from the lands of the living and has been gone (almost any of the mentioned meanings).

-Aviendha: she was killed (by Rahvin then came back when Rand did balefire on him) and has been sent away from him (and by him) some time after.

Some site speculated Cadsuane; though she was not dead.

 

 

I think this is a good thread idea but this is from the POV of Min and as far as she is concerned Aviendha was never dead to be referred to as such "dead and gone". I think another good candidate next to Moriane would be Brigitte, I really don't remember if Min ever met her in the flesh after tGH.

 

Bradon said in his recent 4th age podcast interview that we take for granted Moriane's sruvival which is why I think it may be a good idea to pause and think about this.

 

As for Thom and Moraine Marrying, there was a quote of Moriane telling Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene that she knew the face of the man she would marry better then they knew of theirs. I'll have to look this up which book it was but that lead to the whole Moriane is marrying Thom. 

[mb]

From discussing this in other threads, my opinion about this viewing may seem to have changed; that is probably so.

 

The candidates I now think would be one of these:

-A woman that has already died and has returned from death; Aviendha (with her own soul), Cabriana Mecandes (with soul of Lanfear) certainly fit this; probably also Lanfear.

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected; countless women could fit this.

-A currently living woman that will die and would afterward be brought back from death though some means; some women might have opportunity for this.

 

[Mr Ares]

From discussing this in other threads, my opinion about this viewing may seem to have changed; that is probably so.

 

The candidates I now think would be one of these:

-A woman that has already died and has returned from death; Aviendha (with her own soul), Cabriana Mecandes (with soul of Lanfear) certainly fit this.

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected; countless women could fit this.

-A currently living woman that will die and would afterward be brought back from death though some means; some women might have opportunity for this.

Or a woman Min believes to be dead and gone turns out to not be as dead and gone as Min thought she was.