Alanna and Cadsuane

[D24g0n]

Holding Saidin makes a man immune to compulsion, but there is nothing to show that a male channeler is vulnerable to compulsion when not holding Saidin.  I seriously doubt Alanna tried to compel Rand only once, and Rand is not always holding Saidin.

[Mr Ares]

Holding Saidin makes a man immune to compulsion, but there is nothing to show that a male channeler is vulnerable to compulsion when not holding Saidin. I seriously doubt Alanna tried to compel Rand only once, and Rand is not always holding Saidin.

Your serious doubts are one thing, the text is another. It is specifically stated that men holding the Power are immune, which does imply that men not holding the Power are not immune.

[Luckers]

One thing that wasn't brought up, is what happens if Alanna is killed.  He is basically her warder, and we've seen the reactions of other warders who are bonded to an Aes'sedai that is killed.  Is that purely emotional because of the time they spent with them (which would mean it would not effect Rand since he doesn't really feel any attachment to her) or a reaction of the weave being broken, i.e he's going to go nuts.

 

It a reaction to the weave--the death-absortion and subsequent suicidal effect happens irrespective of personal feelings.

 

As to Alanna--before Rand was bonded by Avi, Elayne and Min he would have gone nuts--now, I don't know. He directly says that his bond with Alanna has become weaker since those three bonded him--that her bond was in effect shoved aside. We've never seen this before and have no way of judging the effects.

 

Has Alanna said that was the only time she tried?  I don't remember anything that would suggest that they are the same.

 

She has--she directly tells Cadsuane of the failure of her attempt to compel Rand, and implied therein is that she has not again tried it, assuming it would fail again--though it would not if Rand were not holding saidin at the time.

 

That is really funny.  That's like saying a tennis match between Roger Federer and Random Country Boy is the same as a tennis match between Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal.  The game is the same, the participants not.

 

But is the game the same? No, blatently not.

 

One would presume the game would be the same, yes. Were they playing by country boys rules or something? If the ball hits a cow it counts as game won?

 

What was your point, anyway? Rand had immunity to compulsion because he was holding saidin--thats a function of holding saidin. The bond functions exactly as it normally does--the only variance is explained by the specific nature of the exact moment--Rand holding saidin.

 

There is, as such, absolutely no basis for suggesting the rules of the bond have changed because Rand can channel. Only in the effects of the bond whilst he is channeling.

 

Holding Saidin makes a man immune to compulsion, but there is nothing to show that a male channeler is vulnerable to compulsion when not holding Saidin.  I seriously doubt Alanna tried to compel Rand only once, and Rand is not always holding Saidin.

 

Its possible, but unlikely--Moiraine does say that Rand resisted her in spite of the fact that the coin she gave him apparently held some aspect that should have influenced him to agree with her, and that that should have been the first sign that he could channel.

 

But against that Sammael directly holds on to saidin when facing Graendal because it is a man that is 'wrapped' in saidin that is immune to compulsion. He specifically relates not releasing saidin to his concern that Graendal will use compulsion on him.

 

Between the two I'm more inclined to trust Sammael--his knowledg of male/female channeling by far exceeds Moiraines--and besides we dont know the specific realities of what she did--it may be like the Blue's fear weave, and not related to compulsion at all, and thus subject to an entirely different set of rules.

[D24g0n]

She has--she directly tells Cadsuane of the failure of her attempt to compel Rand, and implied therein is that she has not again tried it, assuming it would fail again--though it would not if Rand were not holding saidin at the time.

 

She tells Cadsuane this when Cad first finds out about the bond.  From what we know about AS, one failed attempt is not enough to stop them from trying again.  Just because Alanna said she had not tried since the first time does not mean she will never try again.  Even if Alanna does not want to try again, Cad is stronger and knows that Alanna bonded Rand against his will, so there would be no argument if Cad told Alanna to try again. 

 

But against that Sammael directly holds on to saidin when facing Graendal because it is a man that is 'wrapped' in saidin that is immune to compulsion. He specifically relates not releasing saidin to his concern that Graendal will use compulsion on him.

 

Sammael is holding on to Saidin to stop a compulsion weave from affecting him.  Graendal does not have him bonded, so it can not be considered the same, only similar.

 

Which book and chapter did Alanna tell Cadsuane she tried but failed?

[Rain]

Don't know if this has been mentioned. If I recall bonding was not yet discovered during the Forsaken time. This is evident by Grendals(?) lack of knowledge about the bond when she tortured an Aes Sedai and her warder in "Lord of Chaos". Therefore we can't 100% apply Sammuels thoughts to this situation. For instance, one would be more inclined to believe that it's impossible to be bonded while holding Saidin.

I wonder though, if a male channler somehow touched saidin after being caught with a compulsion weave, would the weave break or remain?

[Demoncut]

 

She tells Cadsuane this when Cad first finds out about the bond.  From what we know about AS, one failed attempt is not enough to stop them from trying again.  Just because Alanna said she had not tried since the first time does not mean she will never try again.  Even if Alanna does not want to try again, Cad is stronger and knows that Alanna bonded Rand against his will, so there would be no argument if Cad told Alanna to try again. 

 

Sammael is holding on to Saidin to stop a compulsion weave from affecting him.  Graendal does not have him bonded, so it can not be considered the same, only similar.

 

Which book and chapter did Alanna tell Cadsuane she tried but failed?

 

I'm curious if Rand can or cannot tell when/if she is trying to compel him in some way, now that they are separated, through the warder bond. (Assuming that her emotional states when he draws near to her on an occasion or two are not counted.)  Either Alanna has tried again and failed without Rand knowing, or simply not tried again because she is confident it would yield nothing.  I think if she had even the slightest inclination that she could assert any sort of control over Rand, it would be known and used near immediately.

 

I like the point you brought up about the encounter with Sammael and Graendal.

 

I wish I knew the book and chapter, and I'm sure it's been mentioned before.  I'm almost positive it is when Alanna admits to Cadsuane that she bonded Rand against his will.

 

@ Rain

 

I like where you're going and am inclined to agree with you.

 

About your last thought.. If someone can add to this or supply the chapter/book, feel free, but if I recall, we can agree that holding saidir after a compulsion weave has been lain on someone does not break the weave, when Verin used compulsion on Aes'sedai?

 

We can't know if a woman holding saidir can affect a compulsion laid with saidin (Morgase and Ranvir) because I don't believe she ever could / tried?

 

Here is what I think.  If a weave laid with saidir on a male who can channel could simply be broken by them holding saidin, Sammael would have nothing to fear.  The only thing to fear would be if Graendal compelled him to never seize Saidin, which, as a forsaken... 

 

I'm of the opinion that holding Saidin can prevent it being lain, but once it has been, the male who has been compelled cannot simply break it just by holding Saidin. Perhaps only a female channeler can break it at that point.

[Hybrid]

Don't know if this has been mentioned. If I recall bonding was not yet discovered during the Forsaken time. This is evident by Grendals(?) lack of knowledge about the bond when she tortured an Aes Sedai and her warder in "Lord of Chaos".

Well, it was Semirhage doing the torturing, but yes, bonding was undiscovered during the AOL.

 

Therefore we can't 100% apply Sammuels thoughts to this situation. For instance, one would be more inclined to believe that it's impossible to be bonded while holding Saidin.

I wonder though, if a male channler somehow touched saidin after being caught with a compulsion weave, would the weave break or remain?

It's not necessarily impossible to be bonded while holding saidin.  Being bonded is not the same as compulsion.  I'm inclined to believe that the bond simply expedites and/or facilitates compulsion, but it's not the same and so saidin would give no immunity.

[Jethro]

Holding Saidin makes a man immune to compulsion, but there is nothing to show that a male channeler is vulnerable to compulsion when not holding Saidin.  I seriously doubt Alanna tried to compel Rand only once, and Rand is not always holding Saidin

 

The thing is, if Alanna was successful in Compeling Rand at any point, Rand himself wouldnt instantly realise he had been Compelled. And because we see things from Rands PoV most of the times he is with Alanna, we wouldnt necessarily realise he was being Compelled because of RJ's PoV-based writing style. We could very well have seen Rand being Compelled by Alanna without realising

[Thor]

 

That is really funny.  That's like saying a tennis match between Roger Federer and Random Country Boy is the same as a tennis match between Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal.  The game is the same, the participants not.

 

But is the game the same? No, blatently not.

 

One would presume the game would be the same, yes. Were they playing by country boys rules or something? If the ball hits a cow it counts as game won?

 

What was your point, anyway? Rand had immunity to compulsion because he was holding saidin--thats a function of holding saidin. The bond functions exactly as it normally does--the only variance is explained by the specific nature of the exact moment--Rand holding saidin.

 

There is, as such, absolutely no basis for suggesting the rules of the bond have changed because Rand can channel. Only in the effects of the bond whilst he is channeling.

 

 

 

The point is when something starts to evolve have present more complex angles and variables, it is no longer the same thing as it is before.

 

By your logic, a grade 1 child sitting in his maths class would be studying the same thing as a phd maths student.

 

Sure they are both studying maths, but the subject is not the same.

[D24g0n]

The thing is, if Alanna was successful in Compeling Rand at any point, Rand himself wouldnt instantly realise he had been Compelled. And because we see things from Rands PoV most of the times he is with Alanna, we wouldnt necessarily realise he was being Compelled because of RJ's PoV-based writing style. We could very well have seen Rand being Compelled by Alanna without realising

 

We do know that she had not been successful prior to talking with Cadsuane.  So anything that happened after that is unknown.

[berk]

On the Alanna-Rand bonding issue, I'd like to make a point.

 

So far, two things that have been introduced to the series but haven't played any significant role are:

-Alanna bonding Rand (well, she found him using the bond in CoT, but that isn't really crucial).

-Channellers being turned to the shadow.

 

I find it plausible that Alanna could be forcibly turned to the shadow and used as a weapon against Rand (to find him/inflict pain on him). It would explain why RJ left the Alanna-bond as sort of a storyline loose end, and why the fact that channellers can be turned has never played any significant role in the story.

[Mr Ares]

By your logic, a grade 1 child sitting in his maths class would be studying the same thing as a phd maths student.

 

Sure they are both studying maths, but the subject is not the same.

So the subject is maths in both cases, but one or the other (or maybe both!) isn't studying maths, because the subject is different?Which subject is being studied? Geography?

[Reiver]

We don't have to look at the Rand/Alanna bond in isolation. There's plenty of other examples now of channelers being bonded by Aes Sedai. Narishima for example. As is shown a couple of times he is obedient of his Aes Sedai but not in the compelled warder sense. He questions her when she gives him an order in front of the Hall of Sitters which draws a reaction from the Aes Sedai.

 

The whole bond thing reminds me of the male a'dam. It was stated that although it would initially allow women to control a man but eventually control would pass to him (at least partially).

 

"Put the collar on a man who channels, and a woman wearing the bracelets can make him do whatever she wishes, true, but it will not stop him from going mad, and there is a flow the other way, too. Eventually he will begin to be able to control you, too....Or two women can each wear one bracelet, if you have someone you trust enough; that slows the seepage considerably, I understand, but it also lessens your control....Eventually, you will find yourselves in a struggle for control with him, each of you needing him to remove your bracelet as surely as he needs you to remove the collar"

 

 

[Thor]

I know you tried to help, but that post didn't help at all.  It makes the argument more fuddled.

[Mr Ares]

As is shown a couple of times he is obedient of his Aes Sedai but not in the compelled warder sense. He questions her when she gives him an order in front of the Hall of Sitters which draws a reaction from the Aes Sedai.

Most Aes Sedai tend not to extract obedience via compulsion most of the time. A Warder is supposed to watch your back. Better if he does so because he chooses to.

[Thor]

Actually, I don't think there is a single Aes Sedai who didn't use their persuasive power of the bond to make their warder do something. Moiraine did it on Lan, and from Cadsuanne's POVs, she certainly would do it too.

[Mr Ares]

Actually, I don't think there is a single Aes Sedai who didn't use their persuasive power of the bond to make their warder do something.

Not really a counter to what I said. I said most of the time. They may do it sometimes, but I don't recall seeing any evidence to say that keeping your Warder in a permanent state of compulsion is the norm, nor even that compulsion is ever frequently used. We don't see Moiraine make much use of it. Elyas got away from Rina, without her compelling him to obedience. Kennit is hunting Eldrith, with the intention of killing her. Anselan doesn't seem to have been controlled that well by Barashelle. Which Warder/Sister parirings can you name where it is the norm for the Warder to be compelled?