One Power strength

[Nightstrike]

I made some small changes from the theory post at wotmania+the FAQ at wotmania. These are my bets (un-proven, but still my best guesses):

100:    Rand

98:   Ishamael

95:   Lanfear

93:   Demandred

 

90:   Sammael Taim Logain

85:   Rahvin Aginor

80:   Balthamel Graendal

75:   Be’lal

70:   Semirhage Mesaana

65:   Asmodean

60:    Alivia Sharina

55:   Nynaeve Talaan

50:   Tamela Viendre Moghedien

45:   Egwene Elayne Aviendha Metarra

40:   Bodewhin Someryn

35:   Cadsuane

30:   Nicola

 

26:   Therava Rainyn   

25:   Moiraine Siuan Elaida Romanda Lelaine Jancy Amys Garenia/Zarya

 

 

Choedan Kal

 

24:   Sheriam Galina Theodrin Leane Merise Pevara Yukiri Saerin Kwamesa Kiruna Reanne Kirstian Naime Rysael

23:   Myrelle Silviana Beonin Coiren Desandre Faolain Felaana Joline Lemai Maigan Morvrin Talene Teslyn Anaiya Bera Nesune Carlinya Melaine Tebreille Caire

22:   Delana Doesine Rafela Masuri Katerine Faeldrin Gabrelle Alviarin Sumeko Toveine Liandrin Seaine Edarra Leyn Renaile Shalon

21:   Alanna Duhara Eldrith Keraille Merana Narenwin Verin Seonid Falion Ispan Tarna Kurin Chanelle Dorile Julanya Senine

 

Traveling

 

20:    …

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Verin said that only Moiraine, Siuan and Elaida among the living AS could use the female Choedan Kal. So, I thought they should be slightly above Romanda and Lelaine - even though Romanda and Lelaine are mentioned to be as strong as Siuan (used to be). Only 4% difference anyway...

 

Verin states that only Moiraine, Siuan and Elaida and one or two others are that strong--Lelaine is the 'one', and Romanda, who was in retirement and possibly dead of old age by then as far as Verin knew, was the 'or two'.

 

Besides, we have other comments that Lelaine and Romanda are the same strength as Siuan used to be.

 

However, that being said we cannot take Verin's comment as reliable about the strengths needed to use the Choedan Kal--for one thing, no one living no matter their strength can survive using the sa'angreal without the access key, which Verin did not know. For another she implied those five women to be stronger than Logain--also a false assumption. And finally her comment that a man and a women being ten times stronger if linked is false--we know that a male/female link allows for a higher percentage of each individuals strength to be contributed to the link than a female only, yet it is still less than a hundred percent of each.

 

 

 

Aside from which, it would be more accurate to establish it on a scale of 1-106. RJ specifically stated that he had a 21 level system for female strength, and that the top male strength was a level or two above that--i.e. 104 if its a level, or 108 if its two. I say settle the difference and say 106.

 

Beyond that he also stated that the female cut off level for becoming an Aes Sedai is at 36.2, which with a female scale of 100 allows us to establish the bottom Aes Sedai strength.

 

I find trying to be exact about this to be hard--these are subjective judgements, and ones that i often find to be skewed by the characters natures--we'll note, for instance, that third agers tend to be given the lowest possible strength, the assumption placing Forsaken as slightly stronger due to the image they have in peoples minds--note, for instance, that Demandred is described as only slightly weaker than LTT, and Logain and Taim are given the same description compared to Rand, yet people place Logain higher.

 

Then we have characters we have contempt of being placed lower--Moghedian, for instance. We know only that she is weaker than Cyndane and Graendal--she even implies in tSR that she is stronger than Rahvin "I would love to see Rahvin's face the day he met [Nynaeve} unblocked"--Nynaeve was her strength, the implication is that she could face down Rahvin herself.

 

Despite that her cowardly nature gets her placed lower in strength, which makes no sense. Her cowardly nature began in the Age of Legends when she would have been stronger than pretty much everyone she had to deal with.

 

A few other points.

 

100:    Rand

98:  Ishamael

 

Rand and Ishamael are the exact same strength, as is Moridin now.

 

90:  Lanfear Taim Logain

 

Lanfear is cited as the second most powerful Forsaken, thus at least should have been equal with Demandred. Taim and Logain are both described as only slightly weaker than Rand, as were Demandred and Aginor, and as such on a subjective scale they should all be placed together.

 

80:  Aginor Balthamel

 

Aginor is stated to be one of the very strongest Forsaken, only a step below Ishamael--so he belongs even with Demandred, just below.

 

85:  Sammael Rahvin

 

Problematic. Rahvin's sidehanded inclusion of Sammael in the description of being stronger than Lanfear does seem to imply that they are the same strength, yet by the same note there is alot suggesting he was lying to himself about being anywhere near her strength--not the least being Moghedian's comparison, which honestly i trust more given it was second hand (she was speaking of Nynaeve's strength, and clearly looked down at Nynaeve. There would be less reason for her ego to have made her lie about Nynaeve's strength than Rahvin's about Lanfear).

 

At the very least i would place Graendal above them both.

 

Balthamel

75:  Asmodean Be’lal

 

We have no basis for placing them anywhere at all. We have no directions to their comparative strength.

 

70:  Graendal Alivia

65:  Semirhage Mesaana Sharina

 

Firstly, Graendal probably deserves to be a fair bit higher up. Probably above Sammael and Rahvin at the very least.

 

Secondly im confused about the placements of Sharina and Alivia. Both are described as being considerable stronger than Nynaeve, who was at that stage stronger than Moghedian. The upper limit for Moghedian's strength is established by Graendal, thus on a purely subjective level i'd say that places Sharina and Alivia up near the very top--if not on the same level as Lanfear then at least a step or two below, still above Graendal--in particular the Aes Sedai even suggest that Sharina may be the strongest a woman can be, and we know that they have a historical appreciation of around were that strength can be--so i find it strange that of the two Sharina gets placed lower.

 

This is, i feel, that dismissal of Third Ager strengths in play yet again.

 

As for Semirhage and Mesaana, other then them being similar in strength we have no basis to place them anywhere.

 

55:  Moghedien

 

You know my opinion on this. Just wanted to point it out again.

 

25:  Romanda Lelaine Jancy Amys Garenia/Zarya

24:  Sheriam Galina Theodrin Leane Merise Pevara Yukiri Saerin Kwamesa Kiruna Reanne Kirstian Naime Rysael

23:  Myrelle Silviana Beonin Coiren Desandre Faolain Felaana Joline Lemai Maigan Morvrin Talene Teslyn Anaiya Bera Nesune Carlinya Melaine Tebreille Caire

22:  Delana Doesine Rafela Masuri Katerine Faeldrin Gabrelle Alviarin Sumeko Toveine Liandrin Seaine Edarra Leyn Renaile Shalon

21:  Alanna Duhara Eldrith Keraille Merana Narenwin Verin Seonid Falion Ispan Tarna Kurin Chanelle Dorile Julanya Senine

 

Traveling

 

Comparatively we know that to be impossible. Even if you place the female upper strength at 80--which in itself is impossible given what we know of where the female upper strength sits relative to the male--the cut off for being Aes Sedai is at 28.9 and there are many with the strength nessasary to gain the shawl who cannot travel.

 

Ultimately thats why i suggest the 106 scale.

[ventage]

75:   Asmodean Be’lal

 

can't remember what book it is either 4 or 5, but its the part where lanfear puts the shield around asmodean and she says something along the lines of "turned on by the rest of the pack, the weakest dog usually suffers this fate" implying that asmodean was the weakest, or at least down the bottom of the pack.

 

again aginor should be higher for the same reasons as the post above, another quote is that in the hall of servants he matched ltt blow for blow.

 

i think asha'man should be included in this list aswell, the ones with rand at least.

 

as far as the forsaken go i think their is relativly little diffrence. as verin says its hard to tell weither someone is stronger than you or not, and with men it is impossible unless both hold as much saldin as possible. therefore i would group them diffrently.

 

100 (106) rand--ishy

102 aginor demandred

100 lanfear

98 grandeal

96 rhavin, sammael

94 mesaana, semirhage

92 balthemal moghedian be'lal (its just a guess but i dont think he was that strong)

90 asmo.

 

of course i predict really that asmo would be as low as 60 on the scale im just putting forward what i think the ranks of power are within the foresaken.

one thing i would like to point out that all believe that an angreal will put them above the rest, therefore it is safe to sugest that they are all near enough in strength for even a weak angreal to tip the balance of power.

 

also as the moggy comenting on rhavins power i believe it unlikely that the comment was accurate. it seems unlikely with the nature of the characters that they would of ever faced each other, or had a contest. i think that moggy thinks rhavin is weaker because he holds back, like herself. she knows she is the weakest of the females and guesses that the same truth must be about rhavin, because he acts the same way, backing down for the big boys of aringor and ishy.

[Luckers]

also as the moggy comenting on rhavins power i believe it unlikely that the comment was accurate. it seems unlikely with the nature of the characters that they would of ever faced each other, or had a contest. i think that moggy thinks rhavin is weaker because he holds back, like herself. she knows she is the weakest of the females and guesses that the same truth must be about rhavin, because he acts the same way, backing down for the big boys of aringor and ishy.

 

By what basis do you claim that she knows she is the weakest of the female Forsaken? We have no basis of comparison for her to Semirhage or Mesaana. Furthermore, by what basis do you suggest they never confronted each other--we know infighting was common especially ammongst the higher level Chosen. And Moghedian will fight if cornered, thats stated many times.

 

Irrespective, even if Moghedian's comment isn't true--which i quite agree, is highly possible--the point i was making was merely that placing Moghedian at the bottom is unfounded--and indeed seems to be based only on the dismissal of her due to her cowardice, and that Nynaeve is stronger.

 

A direct comparison is Aginor--who is incredibly inneffectual, and holds a low position amongst the Chosen--yet stands third in the list.

 

Consider, we have the basis for the progression of Ishamael -> Lanfear -> Aginor -> Demandred... and a lesser basis for Graendal, who stands above Moghedian, but where Be'lal, Asmodean, Semirhage, Mesaana, Rahvin and Sammael fit in there is up in the air--they absolutely could fit above Moghedian, or they could all be below her.

 

The point i was making is that we have absolutely no evidence on the matter, and what we do is subjective and useless--much as you yourself suggested.

 

can't remember what book it is either 4 or 5, but its the part where lanfear puts the shield around asmodean and she says something along the lines of "turned on by the rest of the pack, the weakest dog usually suffers this fate" implying that asmodean was the weakest, or at least down the bottom of the pack.

 

I went through that section and cannot find any quote to imply that--the closest she comes is that she says Asmodean is bad at breaking shields because to do that you have to accept pain, and he never could.

 

But again the point made with Moghedian re: Rahvin, and Rahvin re: Lanfear comes in here again. Her contempt makes any comparative comment suspect. I trust Moghedian's a little more than i do the others because it was about Nynaeve, and thus was a step away from her and her ego, but even so....

 

[ventage]

By what basis do you claim that she knows she is the weakest of the female Forsaken? We have no basis of comparison for her to Semirhage or Mesaana. Furthermore, by what basis do you suggest they never confronted each other--we know infighting was common especially ammongst the higher level Chosen. And Moghedian will fight if cornered, thats stated many times.

i agree with your point. my original line of thinking was that the contempt shown towards moghedian through out some members of the foresaken, and the fact that she is naturally a coward pointed to the fact that to be a coward you need to be scared of something bigger and scaryier than you.

 

however you are correct i have no factual evidence to support the section of my first post that you quoted, however it is still my personal opinion that in levels of the op moggy is one of the weakest, my reasoning of this is---

 

the chosen, as the name suggests the strongest channelers of the age of legends that went to the shadow. now that would be a good majority of channelers, since they shadow where winning before LTT sealed the bore with his 100 companions. therefore there must of been a force on the side of the shadow that equaled the 100 companions. and the 13 forsaken at the top of that list. Now Nynaeve is extremly strong compared to aes sedai of this age. and elayne a little less stonger than her and egewene about the same as elayne. now lets remember how rand handeld egewene and elayne in the stone of tear. with little effort what so ever. so if we put this in perspective in matters of strength. by descritiptions nynaeve is stronger but not considerable stronger than elayne. moggy is somehwere inbetween the two, but closer to nyaeve. rand can take elayne and egewene with ease, so nyaaeve just being one person wouldnt stand much of a chance and moggy is weaker. if Aginor and ishy are the same or near enough at rands power they could probally do the same thing.

 

as i see it this means two things

 

1. i am correct, moggy is a lot weaker than the other forsaken but is alivebecause of her cowardness, instincts to survive and ability in the dream world.

 

2. I am wrong, nynaeve is a lot stonger than elayne and egewene, to a point where moggy is still not as strong but still near enough the other foresaken, and alivia is only a little stronger than her.

 

i would get the books out to back up theory but my legs in a cast so can't get up stairs!! annoying.

 

[Nightstrike]

You seem to disagree completely with me here, Luckers. I have great respect for you insights, so maybe I really am way wrong. I would very much like to see your attempted guesswork (I'm aware there really isn't possible to be completely sure). Or maybe you don't do "guesses"? Anyway...

 

Verin states that only Moiraine, Siuan and Elaida and one or two others are that strong--Lelaine is the 'one', and Romanda, who was in retirement and possibly dead of old age by then as far as Verin knew, was the 'or two'.

 

Besides, we have other comments that Lelaine and Romanda are the same strength as Siuan used to be.

Verin said:"The Amyrlin, of course. Moiraine, and Elaida. Perhaps one or two others." If there is 2-6% difference in strength between, say, Elaida and Romanda, then that would make her say "perhaps". And I think it was Egwene who said that Lelaine and Romanda are the same strength as Siuan used to be. From her perspective they are probably about equal, even if they aren't from Verin's perspective.

 

Beyond that he also stated that the female cut off level for becoming an Aes Sedai is at 36.2, which with a female scale of 100 allows us to establish the bottom Aes Sedai strength.

I'm not sure I get that correctly. Did he mean that it takes 36.2 percent out of the top layer AS:s strengths to become Aes Sedai, or did he mean something else?

 

I find trying to be exact about this to be hard--these are subjective judgements, and ones that i often find to be skewed by the characters natures--we'll note, for instance, that third agers tend to be given the lowest possible strength, the assumption placing Forsaken as slightly stronger due to the image they have in peoples minds--note, for instance, that Demandred is described as only slightly weaker than LTT, and Logain and Taim are given the same description compared to Rand, yet people place Logain higher.

I agree completely. I thought that Demandred described as only slightly weaker than LTT would have been something RJ wrote from a weaker channelers viewpoint, so if he was, say, 93% of Lews Therin's strength, then that would fit the description.

 

Then we have characters we have contempt of being placed lower--Moghedian, for instance. We know only that she is weaker than Cyndane and Graendal--she even implies in tSR that she is stronger than Rahvin "I would love to see Rahvin's face the day he met [Nynaeve} unblocked"--Nynaeve was her strength, the implication is that she could face down Rahvin herself.

Yeah, but Moghedien hasn't battled Rahvin. And she probably exaggerates the women channelers strength compared to the male ones. Plus we know that Lanfear's much stronger than Graendal, who is stronger than the rest of them. We also know that Alivia>Sharina>>Nynaeve>Moghedien. To fit them all in, it seems likely that Moghedien is the weakest of all the Forsaken. No proof, so I guess we can't be sure - maybe she really is just below Graendal. But that would probably mean that Alivia is about the same strength as Lanfear (used to be), or maybe even stronger!

 

A few other points.

 

100:    Rand

98:   Ishamael

 

Rand and Ishamael are the exact same strength, as is Moridin now.

Really? I think Lanfear said that Lews Therin was as strong as anyone could be (or at least she implied something like that). But it seems odd that 2 people were at the absolute OP peak.

 

Lanfear is cited as the second most powerful Forsaken, thus at least should have been equal with Demandred. Taim and Logain are both described as only slightly weaker than Rand, as were Demandred and Aginor, and as such on a subjective scale they should all be placed together.

 

Aginor is stated to be one of the very strongest Forsaken, only a step below Ishamael--so he belongs even with Demandred, just below.

Yeah, that could be right. Aginor hasn't impressed much in battle, though. And he may have been the second strongest male Forsaken, only to be outranked when others joined the Shadow.

 

Balthamel

75:   Asmodean Be’lal

 

 

We have no basis for placing them anywhere at all. We have no directions to their comparative strength.

Balthamel is weaker than Sammael, that much is absolutely certain. Asmodean may be stronger, so I guess we don't know for sure. Be'lal didn't give much of a fight, but I guess he could he could have a higher rank as well. We don't have much reason to place Asmodean or Be'lal at the same rank (or higher) as any of the other male Forsaken, though.

 

As for Semirhage and Mesaana, other then them being similar in strength we have no basis to place them anywhere.

We know they are weaker than Graendal, who in turn is weaker than Cyndane, who in turn is weaker than Lanfear. It also seems safe to assume that they are still very strong channelers - top layers among females (and thereby even stronger than most of all male channelers). Other than that, I guess you're right. We can't know for sure.

 

25:   Romanda Lelaine Jancy Amys Garenia/Zarya

24:   Sheriam Galina Theodrin Leane Merise Pevara Yukiri Saerin Kwamesa Kiruna Reanne Kirstian Naime Rysael

23:   Myrelle Silviana Beonin Coiren Desandre Faolain Felaana Joline Lemai Maigan Morvrin Talene Teslyn Anaiya Bera Nesune Carlinya Melaine Tebreille Caire

22:   Delana Doesine Rafela Masuri Katerine Faeldrin Gabrelle Alviarin Sumeko Toveine Liandrin Seaine Edarra Leyn Renaile Shalon

21:   Alanna Duhara Eldrith Keraille Merana Narenwin Verin Seonid Falion Ispan Tarna Kurin Chanelle Dorile Julanya Senine

 

Traveling

 

Comparatively we know that to be impossible. Even if you place the female upper strength at 80--which in itself is impossible given what we know of where the female upper strength sits relative to the male--the cut off for being Aes Sedai is at 28.9 and there are many with the strength nessasary to gain the shawl who cannot travel.

 

Ultimately thats why i suggest the 106 scale.

So, compared with Rand(say he's 100% OP strength) - where whould you place Moiraine/Elaida?

[Luckers]

By what basis do you claim that she knows she is the weakest of the female Forsaken? We have no basis of comparison for her to Semirhage or Mesaana. Furthermore, by what basis do you suggest they never confronted each other--we know infighting was common especially ammongst the higher level Chosen. And Moghedian will fight if cornered, thats stated many times.

i agree with your point. my original line of thinking was that the contempt shown towards moghedian through out some members of the foresaken, and the fact that she is naturally a coward pointed to the fact that to be a coward you need to be scared of something bigger and scaryier than you.

 

 

I do respect personal opinion--and it is indeed entirely possible that Moghedian is the weakest. I wasn't trying to attack you because i think differently or anything, I'm just trying to raise awareness of the actual implications.

 

Which directly involve what you've stated.

 

the chosen, as the name suggests the strongest channelers of the age of legends that went to the shadow.

 

'Chosen' was the name given to any channeler who served the Shadow--Forsaken too was a name that referred to all shadow channelers. Given that 3% of the population had the ability, and that it was a highly industrialized world that means hundreds of thousands at the very least, and more probably millions.

 

now that would be a good majority of channelers, since they shadow where winning before LTT sealed the bore with his 100 companions. therefore there must of been a force on the side of the shadow that equaled the 100 companions. and the 13 forsaken at the top of that list.

 

The hundred companions (closer to a hundred and thirty) were political supporters of Lews Therin--there would have been many others amongst the light who would have stood as strong as they, if not stronger--Indeed, Latra Posae Decume went amongst the strongest female channelers and had them sign the 'Fateful Concord' to not join in with LTT and the hundred companions.

 

We have no evidence of a similar group amongst the Shadow. And the 13 forsaken are not unique either--we know that 29 different channelers held that high position over the course of the War of the Shadow. 29, of millions. There would have been many many others of greater strength then many of those 29.

 

Now Nynaeve is extremly strong compared to aes sedai of this age. and elayne a little less stonger than her and egewene about the same as elayne. now lets remember how rand handeld egewene and elayne in the stone of tear. with little effort what so ever. so if we put this in perspective in matters of strength. by descritiptions nynaeve is stronger but not considerable stronger than elayne. moggy is somehwere inbetween the two, but closer to nyaeve. rand can take elayne and egewene with ease, so nyaaeve just being one person wouldnt stand much of a chance and moggy is weaker. if Aginor and ishy are the same or near enough at rands power they could probally do the same thing.

 

Firstly, keep in mind that Egwene and Elayne were not linked--their strengths were not added together. Rand was able to shield both easily because respective to each individually he was stronger. Egwene herself considers this, stating that maybe Nynaeve would have done better--probably not, you don't have to be stronger than someone to cut them off from the source even if they already hold it--though that does require more strength--and no woman could break a shield held by Rand--you can maintain a shield on someone even if you are weaker, not even Lanfear could have broken his shield.

 

Secondly, Nynaeve had been channeling for nearly ten years at this stage. Yes, we know that she was not at her full strength, but we also know that at the same time she was able to equal Moiraine, Egwene and Elayne barely had the strength to create a fireball. The comparisons between Nynaeve and Egwene/Elayne were made in the nature of their potential. Egwene had been forced, and at this stage exceeded Moiraine, but Nynaeve had already reached Forsaken level...

 

Effectively, Nynaeve was still much much stronger than either Egwene or Elayne. In the end they will finish at a less dramatic difference, but at the time...

 

Thirdly, Nynaeve's strength relative to Rand's does not imply anything about Moghedian's strength relative to Semirhage, Mesaana, Be'lal and all the rest--maybe he could wrap them up just as easily.

 

as i see it this means two things

 

1. i am correct, moggy is a lot weaker than the other forsaken but is alivebecause of her cowardness, instincts to survive and ability in the dream world.

 

2. I am wrong, nynaeve is a lot stonger than elayne and egewene, to a point where moggy is still not as strong but still near enough the other foresaken, and alivia is only a little stronger than her.

 

So yeah, Nynaeve was much stronger at the time, but that being said that Rand was able to shield Egwene and Elayne is not that big a deal--it implies only that they are weaker then he--no amount of degree. Lanfear herself would not have been able to break his shield, and he caught Elayne and Egwene by surprise. Were they ready its likely it would have been a much greater struggle.

 

Beyond which consider that Moghedian is nearly 300 years old--that means that she was alive and active long before the bore was drilled. At the time strength did not mean anything in terms of importance, and furthermore Moghedian would not have been dealing with many powerful people... her cowardice and careful manner was set in place long before she was reutinely dealing with people nearing her strength.

 

Effectively her mannerism imply nothing about her strength--they cause her to be held in disreguard by the other Chosen, yet let me ask you this--if Moghedian is held in such disreguard, and was also weak, then why wasn't she killed? Its quite clear that however contemptuos of her the other Chosen are, they are wary of confronting her. And the Dark One did like his Chosen to fight amongst themselves....

 

You seem to disagree completely with me here, Luckers. I have great respect for you insights, so maybe I really am way wrong. I would very much like to see your attempted guesswork (I'm aware there really isn't possible to be completely sure). Or maybe you don't do "guesses"? Anyway...

 

I more disagree with the idea of trying to put channelers on such an exact chart--mostly we have no basis but subjective opinion, and that doesn't hold us through very well--which was more or less what i was trying to show--and indeed is the basis of what im trying to continue to show. I hope i don't come accross as attacking, im just trying to show where people are making assumptions that arn't supported by the books.

 

Verin said:"The Amyrlin, of course. Moiraine, and Elaida. Perhaps one or two others." If there is 2-6% difference in strength between, say, Elaida and Romanda, then that would make her say "perhaps". And I think it was Egwene who said that Lelaine and Romanda are the same strength as Siuan used to be. From her perspective they are probably about equal, even if they aren't from Verin's perspective.

 

Why would Verin's perception be different to Egwene's? Yes, there is a blurriness is percieving strength, but that doesn't mean they appear to be different to different people--indeed, the Aes Sedai hierarchy works exactly because of this. It doesn't change just because you are stronger.

 

Besides, Cadsuane states it as well in New Spring.

 

'A little more care with the other cups,' she said, unperturbed by all the gaping. 'Child?' Moiraine returned to the hearth still staring, and Cadsuane went on, 'Meilyn is considerably older. When she and I are gone, that leaves Kerene the strongest.' Larelle flinched. 'Am I disturbing you?'

 

Cadsuane's solicitous tone could not have been more false, and she did not wait for an answer. 'Holding our silence about age doesn't keep people from knowing we live longer than they. Phaaw! From Kerene, it's a sharp drop to the next five. Five once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential. And one of those is as old as I am and in retirement to boot.'

 

Those five being Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Lelaine and Romanda (the one who is as old as she, and in retirement to boot).

 

I'm not sure I get that correctly. Did he mean that it takes 36.2 percent out of the top layer AS:s strengths to become Aes Sedai, or did he mean something else?

 

He stated that 63.8% of women who can channel have the strength to attain the shawl. By inference if we look at female strength on a scale of 1 to 100 then the limit to attain the shawl sits on 36.2.

 

I agree completely. I thought that Demandred described as only slightly weaker than LTT would have been something RJ wrote from a weaker channelers viewpoint, so if he was, say, 93% of Lews Therin's strength, then that would fit the description.

 

See, i don't see how we can add numbers to that at all--Lanfear to Rand works because we have comments that directly allow for maths.

 

We can subjectively deduce things. We know Ishamael stood on top, equal to Rand, that Lanfear stood next, and Aginor next. Presumably Demandred due to the above stood very close, so we can guess him to be next. But trying to use numbers to do that? And beyond that point it becomes completely blurry.

 

Yeah, but Moghedien hasn't battled Rahvin. And she probably exaggerates the women channelers strength compared to the male ones.

 

How do we know Moghedian never fought Rahvin--we know for a fact that the Dark One encouraged struggle amongst his Chosen as a way of finding who was strongest. Indeed, why would Moghedian have raised Rahvin then if not that she either felt a particular animosity, or if she had specific reason to compare Nynaeve and Rahvin's strengths--the first implies confrontation, the second insures a strength judgement.

 

And by what basis do you suggest that Moghedian inflated female strength against male--it was well known in the Age of Legends that there were more men of stronger strengths than female.  If anything Moghedian should be implied to do the opposite.

 

Plus we know that Lanfear's much stronger than Graendal, who is stronger than the rest of them.

 

We don't know Lanfear was much stronger than Graendal--we know Lanfear was stronger than Cyndane, and Cyndane was stronger than Graendal, but we don't know degrees. We also don't know that Graendal is stronger than the rest of the female forsaken--she states that women who were stronger than her in the age of legends was rare--Semirhage and Mesaana would have been two amongst millions, more than a fare basis for 'rare'.

 

We also know that Alivia>Sharina>>Nynaeve>Moghedien. To fit them all in, it seems likely that Moghedien is the weakest of all the Forsaken. No proof, so I guess we can't be sure - maybe she really is just below Graendal. But that would probably mean that Alivia is about the same strength as Lanfear (used to be), or maybe even stronger!

 

We don't know that Alivia is stronger than Sharina. Egwene states that Sharina is stronger than Nynaeve, and goes on to say that some sisters were considering the possibility she might be as strong as it was possible to be--a thought Egwene displays no trouble with despite having face Lanfear. Elayne states that Alivia was considerably stronger than Nynaeve. Two different women, both espousing the degree of strength in different ways--Sharina in possibly being as strong as it was possible to be, Alivia in 'considerably'.

 

Ultimately, we don't know which is stronger. And in Sharina case, at least, we have reason to place her at that level--the Aes Sedai have knowledge of where the top strength lies, or else they wouldn't have suggested it (remember that as a suggestion it does not fall into the realm of Aes Sedai assumption of truth... for the Aes Sedai to have suggested it in the face of the Tower gaining increasingly stronger novics over such a short period then they had a basis for it. Which makes sense, the Tower's hierarchy is based in strength, and even if they don't talk of it awareness has remained--they even discuss the knowledge of previous strengths several times).

 

Now they may not be right, but to suggest it in the way they did in the face of the Egwene's, Elayne's and Nynaeve's all over a short period then they have a basis for that suggestion.

 

Now, Alivia and Sharina cannot be stronger than Lanfear used to be--that we do know as a fact--but they could well be the same strength--indeed its highly likely.

 

This is part of what i mean about assuming third agers are weaker--you yourself offered that final comment, "But that would probably mean that Alivia is about the same strength as Lanfear (used to be), or maybe even stronger!" with an exclaimation point as if it were an idea thats completely out of the blue--its even raised in the books, and yet people ignore it, or seem shocked by it.

 

Moghedian might be the weakest, or she might not. We simply do not know. We don't even have anything that suggests one way or the other.

 

Really? I think Lanfear said that Lews Therin was as strong as anyone could be (or at least she implied something like that). But it seems odd that 2 people were at the absolute OP peak.

 

LTT was, and Rand is. So was Elan Morin Tedronai, who is both Ishamael and Moridin. And i don't see why it would be odd--millions could channel in the Age of Legends--i imagine there were probably a fair few others that also were off that level of strength, as well as there would of been many women of Lanfear's. Statistically its almost impossible if that wasn't the case.

 

But, irrespective yes, Rand and Ishamael were of the same strength.

 

Yeah, that could be right. Aginor hasn't impressed much in battle, though. And he may have been the second strongest male Forsaken, only to be outranked when others joined the Shadow.

 

He was never outranked in strength if thats what you mean--not by the any amongst the thirteen. There would have to have been other Chosen who were as strong in the power as he was amongst the hundreds of thousands of Chosen, but amongst the thirteen he was the second strongest man.

 

Or did you mean outranked politically? In which case your probably correct.

 

Balthamel is weaker than Sammael, that much is absolutely certain. Asmodean may be stronger, so I guess we don't know for sure. Be'lal didn't give much of a fight, but I guess he could he could have a higher rank as well. We don't have much reason to place Asmodean or Be'lal at the same rank (or higher) as any of the other male Forsaken, though.

 

How do you know Balthemel is weaker than Sammael?

 

And Be'lal's fight isn't much to go off--he was toying with Rand trying to get him to take Callandor--that in itself suggests he believed he could kill Rand at any time, and indeed he could have. Then Moiraine surprised him with balefire, which works irrespective of strength.

 

And i think it might be bad to term it in rank--we have no knowledge that suggests that their strengths represents their ranks--indeed, Aginor's position proves that.

 

We know they are weaker than Graendal, who in turn is weaker than Cyndane, who in turn is weaker than Lanfear. It also seems safe to assume that they are still very strong channelers - top layers among females (and thereby even stronger than most of all male channelers). Other than that, I guess you're right. We can't know for sure.

 

We don't actually know they are weaker than Graendal--or Cyndane. Graendal states that Cyndane is stronger than she and that was rare in the Age of Legends--Semirhage and Msaana, two amongst millions, suffice as 'rare'. Or not... the point being we don't know.

 

So, compared with Rand(say he's 100% OP strength) - where whould you place Moiraine/Elaida?

 

I would place Rand at 106 remember, and Lanfear at 100.

 

Moiraine and Elaida... I don't know... my point is specifically that we cannot do this. But if pressed i'd put them somewhere between 60 and 65--the basis being that the Aes Sedai cut off is at 36.2 and Moiraine and Elaida have to be significantly above that--yet a fair step below Cadsuane who states that directly in New Spring, and Cadsuane being weaker than Egwene, who is weaker than the Forsaken. I'd say Forsaken strengths begin around 80.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

From her perspective they are probably about equal, even if they aren't from Verin's perspective.

Why can't Egwene tell the difference?

 

Beyond that he also stated that the female cut off level for becoming an Aes Sedai is at 36.2, which with a female scale of 100 allows us to establish the bottom Aes Sedai strength.

I'm not sure I get that correctly. Did he mean that it takes 36.2 percent out of the top layer AS:s strengths to become Aes Sedai, or did he mean something else?

Anyone below a certain level is not strong enough to be Aes Sedai. 36.2% are below that level.

 

Yeah, but Moghedien hasn't battled Rahvin.

You know this how? Infighting was endemic among the Chosen.

Plus we know that Lanfear's much stronger than Graendal, who is stronger than the rest of them.

We know Lanfear is strongest, and it seems likely that Graendal is next strongest, but she says that other women stronger than her were a rarity. Not that she is second strongest woman, although that does seem likely.

We also know that Alivia>Sharina>>Nynaeve>Moghedien.

Not quite. How do we know Alivia is stronger than Sharina, rather than equal or the other way round?

To fit them all in, it seems likely that Moghedien is the weakest of all the Forsaken.

Why?

But that would probably mean that Alivia is about the same strength as Lanfear (used to be), or maybe even stronger!

She can't be stronger than Lanfear. That's the stongest it's possible for a woman to be. She can, at most, be equal.

 

Really? I think Lanfear said that Lews Therin was as strong as anyone could be (or at least she implied something like that). But it seems odd that 2 people were at the absolute OP peak.

Yes, they're equal.

 

Yeah, that could be right. Aginor hasn't impressed much in battle, though. And he may have been the second strongest male Forsaken, only to be outranked when others joined the Shadow.

We have no reason to believe he was marked down as others joined, do we? And impressing in battle doesn't say much about OP strength - Aginor was a scientist, not a soldier. His strengths lay in other directions.

 

Balthamel is weaker than Sammael, that much is absolutely certain.

Do you have a quote for that?

Be'lal didn't give much of a fight, but I guess he could he could have a higher rank as well.

Says nothing about his strength, everything about his willingness to talk rather than finish the job. Moiraine got the first shot, and it was all she needed.

 

We know they are weaker than Graendal,

Probably weaker, not certainly, unless I've forgotten something?

 

i agree with your point. my original line of thinking was that the contempt shown towards moghedian through out some members of the foresaken, and the fact that she is naturally a coward pointed to the fact that to be a coward you need to be scared of something bigger and scaryier than you.

Cowardice only requires a lack of courage. It is possible to be scared of things that are not bigger or stronger. Scariness is relative. Still a viable theory, though.

[ventage]

just throwing something in, i don't think this table will mean much. even if say sammael is stronger than say asmo, if asmo had the advantage in anyway, say skill, placement of battle or knowledge on fighting(unlikely but for the sake of a theory)he could win. raw talent in channeling i would say will have as much effect as knowledge in the power so i don't think we will have are answears from book 12. i don't think there are going to be 1vs1 in the story more army vs army. but i agree with luckers if anything, putting this on a scale is pointless because it wont be fact we dont have anything to seperate fact from theory or opinion.

[ksbsnowowl]

90: Lanfear Taim Logain

...

70: Graendal Alivia

 

I'm away from my books, but wasn't it Cyndane who approached Alivia during the cleansing and almost got her head scorched off?  I seem to recall Cyndane being surprized that the woman was stronger than before the 'finn held her (though I do realize that Alivia had an Angreal at the time).

[sheaff28]

I don't understand why everybody's saying Asmodean is so weak...when he battled Rand in Rhuidean they went blow for blow with and without the choedan kal, and Rand was only able to defeat him when he added the strength of his angreal. While I guess it's possible Rand wasn't at his full strength yet he had already defeated Aginor who is supposedly very strong.

[pxnsolid]

Not quite. How do we know Alivia is stronger than Sharina, rather than equal or the other way round?

 

Technically, at this point Alivia would be stronger. Shes 400 years old, and Sharina is not at her full potential yet. Now thats not to say who is strongest in the end.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, well, I would say that Alivia's (reached) strength is somewhat higher than Sharina's full potential (see quotes below for support of this). And that Alivia's strength is less than Cyndane's - because otherwise she'd be dead at the cleansing (which she very nearly was anyway, despite all the *angreal).

 

Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anybody in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation

"Except for Nynaeve", meaning that Sharina's potential is not far beyond Nynaeve's.

 

Aside from that, she is... she’s.. Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve

"Considarably stronger", meaning that Alivia's strength is far beyond Nynaeve's.

 

[Luckers]

I'm away from my books, but wasn't it Cyndane who approached Alivia during the cleansing and almost got her head scorched off?  I seem to recall Cyndane being surprized that the woman was stronger than before the 'finn held her (though I do realize that Alivia had an Angreal at the time).

 

Cyndane realised that Alivia was stronger than she had been when she was Lanfear, and deduces (correctly) that she must have an angreal. The only inference we can draw from that is that Lanfear was probably as strong as a woman could be.

 

I don't understand why everybody's saying Asmodean is so weak...when he battled Rand in Rhuidean they went blow for blow with and without the choedan kal, and Rand was only able to defeat him when he added the strength of his angreal. While I guess it's possible Rand wasn't at his full strength yet he had already defeated Aginor who is supposedly very strong.

 

I agree--Asmodean's bad rep comes from his weak will, and people subsequently associate that with him being weak.

 

That being said, Asmodean and Rand were using the Choedan Kal--with such huge amounts in the power their relative differences in strength might have become positively minute--even say Rand was 106 whilst Asmodean was barely 60... thats a difference of 46, when they were each using 100,000. Its not gonna show up much.

 

Of course that all depends on how sharing an angreal works. It could go the way you said--im just saying that point is blurry in itself.

 

 

Not quite. How do we know Alivia is stronger than Sharina, rather than equal or the other way round?

 

Technically, at this point Alivia would be stronger. Shes 400 years old, and Sharina is not at her full potential yet. Now thats not to say who is strongest in the end.

 

Very true, but the discussion was about Sharina's potential, which in women can be quite exactly judged.

 

Yeah, well, I would say that Alivia's (reached) strength is somewhat higher than Sharina's full potential (see quotes below for support of this). And that Alivia's strength is less than Cyndane's - because otherwise she'd be dead at the cleansing (which she very nearly was anyway, despite all the *angreal).

 

Sharinas potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anybody in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation

"Except for Nynaeve", meaning that Sharina's potential is not far beyond Nynaeve's.

 

Aside from that, she is... shes.. Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve

"Considarably stronger", meaning that Alivia's strength is far beyond Nynaeve's.

 

 

I actually commented on that.

 

"We don't know that Alivia is stronger than Sharina. Egwene states that Sharina is stronger than Nynaeve, and goes on to say that some sisters were considering the possibility she might be as strong as it was possible to be--a thought Egwene displays no trouble with despite having face Lanfear. Elayne states that Alivia was considerably stronger than Nynaeve. Two different women, both espousing the degree of strength in different ways--Sharina in possibly being as strong as it was possible to be, Alivia in 'considerably'.

 

Ultimately, we don't know which is stronger. And in Sharina case, at least, we have reason to place her at that level--the Aes Sedai have knowledge of where the top strength lies, or else they wouldn't have suggested it (remember that as a suggestion it does not fall into the realm of Aes Sedai assumption of truth... for the Aes Sedai to have suggested it in the face of the Tower gaining increasingly stronger novics over such a short period then they had a basis for it. Which makes sense, the Tower's hierarchy is based in strength, and even if they don't talk of it awareness has remained--they even discuss the knowledge of previous strengths several times).

 

Now they may not be right, but to suggest it in the way they did in the face of the Egwene's, Elayne's and Nynaeve's all over a short period then they have a basis for that suggestion.

 

Now, Alivia and Sharina cannot be stronger than Lanfear used to be--that we do know as a fact--but they could well be the same strength--indeed its highly likely.

 

This is part of what i mean about assuming third agers are weaker--you yourself offered that final comment, "But that would probably mean that Alivia is about the same strength as Lanfear (used to be), or maybe even stronger!" with an exclaimation point as if it were an idea thats completely out of the blue--its even raised in the books, and yet people ignore it, or seem shocked by it."

 

 

[Jethro]

Without implying that I dont believe it, could I ask where all this info about the strength ratings come from? Only I have read quite a few RJ interviews and none hint at a point system like what is being discussed here.

 

Could someone post a link so we can all see it?

[Nightstrike]

Two different women, both espousing the degree of strength in different ways--Sharina in possibly being as strong as it was possible to be, Alivia in 'considerably'.

I disagree. It wasn't expressed in different ways (at least my two quotes weren't, and you said you had addressed them with these comments). It was a comparison to Nynaeve. Se the quotes in my post above.

 

Ultimately, we don't know which is stronger. And in Sharina case, at least, we have reason to place her at that level--the Aes Sedai have knowledge of where the top strength lies, or else they wouldn't have suggested it

Now they may not be right, but to suggest it in the way they did in the face of the Egwene's, Elayne's and Nynaeve's all over a short period then they have a basis for that suggestion.

Aes Sedai believing something as truth doesn't mean it's true. "Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation"

 

Now, Alivia and Sharina cannot be stronger than Lanfear used to be--that we do know as a fact--but they could well be the same strength--indeed its highly likely.

Alivia's strength is less than Cyndane's - because otherwise she'd be dead at the cleansing (which she very nearly was anyway, despite all the *angreal). Or did you mean that Alivia and Sharina are the same strength as eachother. I don't believe that is true, either. For previously stated reasons.

 

This is part of what i mean about assuming third agers are weaker--you yourself offered that final comment, "But that would probably mean that Alivia is about the same strength as Lanfear (used to be), or maybe even stronger!" with an exclaimation point as if it were an idea thats completely out of the blue--its even raised in the books, and yet people ignore it, or seem shocked by it.

Alivia's strength is less than Cyndane's - because otherwise she'd be dead at the cleansing (which she very nearly was anyway, despite all the *angreal).

 

 

[Jethro]

Wasnt there a comment in the books stating that Alivia was as strong as you can get? Or was it that she knows every way to kill with the Power? Im sure there was something mentioned about her like that although it has been a while since I read the later books

[Nightstrike]

Without implying that I dont believe it, could I ask where all this info about the strength ratings come from? Only I have read quite a few RJ interviews and none hint at a point system like what is being discussed here.

 

Could someone post a link so we can all see it?

It's all wild speculation. But based on power struggles among characters and so on, of course. Or to quote the 21 level list from wotmania's FAQ (which I've read and enjoyed):

If you have only looked at the list itself, and have your doubts, this is probably the most important section to read. This list is quite flexible, or to put it more honestly, possibly not correct.

 

 

[Luckers]

Without implying that I dont believe it, could I ask where all this info about the strength ratings come from? Only I have read quite a few RJ interviews and none hint at a point system like what is being discussed here.

 

Could someone post a link so we can all see it?

 

Which aspects do you mean? Most of the above is wild speculation. However, RJ did state that he had a 21 level system for female strengths, and also that the male top strength was a level or two above the top female strength. Also he stated that 63.8% of women were strong enough to attain the shawl, and that one percent of the modern population can channel, whilst three percent of the Age of Legends population could.

 

These quotes are all over the place--go to the wotmania website, and down to the 'mouth of the creator' website, it contains a comprehensive citation of RJ's comments. Other sources are listed in a stuck thread at the top of the General Wheel Discussion (this forum).

 

I disagree. It wasn't expressed in different ways (at least my two quotes weren't, and you said you had addressed them with these comments). It was a comparison to Nynaeve. Se the quotes in my post above.

 

It was stated by two different women. Yes, it was relative to a singular woman, but what makes you think that Elayne's undertstanding of 'conciderable' is the same as Egwene's? Especially given Egwene made not direct comment about the degree of difference, she only stated that Sharina was stronger than Nynaeve.

 

They were stated in different ways, Elayne's was a positive, Egwene's a negative (i.e. "stronger than Nynaeve" "except for Nynaeve, and ahead of her") the methods were different, and they were subjective, specific to the women that uttered them, and Elayne and Egwene are different women.

 

There is no basis within that to make comparitive judgements. Not to any degree of reliability.

 

Quote

Ultimately, we don't know which is stronger. And in Sharina case, at least, we have reason to place her at that level--the Aes Sedai have knowledge of where the top strength lies, or else they wouldn't have suggested it

Now they may not be right, but to suggest it in the way they did in the face of the Egwene's, Elayne's and Nynaeve's all over a short period then they have a basis for that suggestion.

 

Aes Sedai believing something as truth doesn't mean it's true. "Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation"

 

I addressed that too.

 

"Ultimately, we don't know which is stronger. And in Sharina case, at least, we have reason to place her at that level--the Aes Sedai have knowledge of where the top strength lies, or else they wouldn't have suggested it (remember that as a suggestion it does not fall into the realm of Aes Sedai assumption of truth... for the Aes Sedai to have suggested it in the face of the Tower gaining increasingly stronger novics over such a short period then they had a basis for it. Which makes sense, the Tower's hierarchy is based in strength, and even if they don't talk of it awareness has remained--they even discuss the knowledge of previous strengths several times)."

 

That they suggested it, rather than stated it, takes it out of the realm of Aes Sedai presumed truth. They were suggesting it--which means they had a reason to suggest it. This implies a great deal, i mean think about it. The Aes Sedai had not seen anyone nearing Elayne's strength for hundreds of years, yet suddenly they had Egwene equaling her, and Nynaeve exceeding them by a significant deal. They never thought of making that comment about Nynaeve, yet for Sharina they did.

 

Now, they may be wrong in their guesses--but the significant fact is that to be making those guesses they must have some basis.

 

This makes sense--Aes Sedai hierarchy is based in strength, and their lifespans overlap. They may not verbalise it, but they are aware of every Aes Sedai's strength in the Tower relative to their own, and they would be dealing with sisters who had dealt with sisters of increasingly stronger strength back through their history. Its the basis of their ability to compare Egwene and Elayne to sisters living six hundred years ago, and Nynaeve to those a thousand--why the distinction without basis?

 

Yes, its subjective, and yes it could be false--I'm not even sure i think its true--the point is that it was suggested, and it cannot be dismissed by the idea that 'Aes Sedai assume things to be the truth when they arn't'.

 

This is precisely why such subjective arguments for placement should be dismissed.

 

Alivia's strength is less than Cyndane's - because otherwise she'd be dead at the cleansing (which she very nearly was anyway, despite all the *angreal). Or did you mean that Alivia and Sharina are the same strength as eachother. I don't believe that is true, either. For previously stated reasons.

 

I meant that they could be the same strength as Lanfear. RJ shot your argument about Alivia being weaker than Cyndane out of the air--he directly stated that Cyndane survived only because of her superior knowledge of the power. Indeed it is problematic anyway--Elayne gives Aviendha an angreal that is weaker than the one Alivia used, and says it would make Aviendha twice Nynaeve's strength. Thats above twice Aviendha's. Alivia using a stronger angreal, no matter what her initial strength was, would have stood at more than twice Cyndane's. Perhaps considerably more.

 

Cyndane survived through knowledge, not strength, and she did not win, she survived.

 

 

[Tel Janin]

Several folks keep using a term/phrase, and it keeps raising my hackles so to speak.

 

Several folks have stated that Lanfear is/was as strong as a woman could be.  Is there something in the books or a quote from RJ stating that no woman could ever be stronger than this one particular channeler?  That no woman could ever be born that could, perhaps, be stronger?  It's like y'all are sayin', "Lanfear had XX channeling strength, and XX is as far as any woman could ever go."  Do y'all se what I'm tryin' to say, or am I just confusing the issue?  :-\

 

I'm not trying to stir the pot, as it were, I'm merely requesting information.  It seems to me that a comment/quote/statement like that would put an unreasonable limitation on it, and I don't believe that RJ was big on limitations...  'course, I could be wrong.

[Nightstrike]

(remember that as a suggestion it does not fall into the realm of Aes Sedai assumption of truth... for the Aes Sedai to have suggested it in the face of the Tower gaining increasingly stronger novics over such a short period then they had a basis for it. Which makes sense, the Tower's hierarchy is based in strength, and even if they don't talk of it awareness has remained--they even discuss the knowledge of previous strengths several times)."

 

That they suggested it, rather than stated it, takes it out of the realm of Aes Sedai presumed truth. They were suggesting it--which means they had a reason to suggest it. This implies a great deal, i mean think about it.

What are you saying, that a mere suggestion means more than a statement of fact (I must have misunderstood you, but it sure sounds like that's what you're saying...). Once more, let me insert my quote "Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation". And about knowledge about previous strengths - I don't believe it. RJ has constantly pointed out how people in the series very often don't know what they think they know. It seems highly unlikely that modern AS would know what all-time (all ages) OP strength record could be - especially since the quote says "..., though that was only speculation". "Speculation", as in them believing something likely to be true, rather than knowing 100% what they are talking about.

 

RJ shot your argument about Alivia being weaker than Cyndane out of the air--he directly stated that Cyndane survived only because of her superior knowledge of the power.

I disagree, that particular statement from RJ neither supports, nor disproves my argument. I would say that Alivia is probably not considarably weaker than Cyndane. With the angreal, Alivia would probably be able to hold considerably more of saidar. That, plus the ter'angreal, still resulted in a severely injured Alivia (maybe one could say Cyndane "won a victory", even if it didn't resulted in a fatality). On the other hand, if we assume that my argument wouldn't hold. "Shot out of the water", as you say... I'm wrong and Cyndane is weaker than Alivia. With the angreal, Alivia wouldn't just be able to hold considerably more of saidar than Cyndane - it would be such a vaste overkill capacity that I find it extremely, extremely unrealistic that the underdog would succeed in taking Alivia's arm (if someone hadn't been there in time to Heal her).

As you yourself said:

Elayne gives Aviendha an angreal that is weaker than the one Alivia used, and says it would make Aviendha twice Nynaeve's strength. Thats above twice Aviendha's. Alivia using a stronger angreal, no matter what her initial strength was, would have stood at more than twice Cyndane's. Perhaps considerably more.

 

 

Several folks have stated that Lanfear is/was as strong as a woman could be.  Is there something in the books or a quote from RJ stating that no woman could ever be stronger than this one particular channeler?  That no woman could ever be born that could, perhaps, be stronger?  It's like y'all are sayin', "Lanfear had XX channeling strength, and XX is as far as any woman could ever go."  Do y'all se what I'm tryin' to say, or am I just confusing the issue?

I can't recall ever having seen any such statement from RJ, which doesn't mean there isn't one. (Sorry, can't help you there.) But she sure seems immensely strong!

[Jethro]

Several folks keep using a term/phrase, and it keeps raising my hackles so to speak.

 

Several folks have stated that Lanfear is/was as strong as a woman could be.  Is there something in the books or a quote from RJ stating that no woman could ever be stronger than this one particular channeler?  That no woman could ever be born that could, perhaps, be stronger?  It's like y'all are sayin', "Lanfear had XX channeling strength, and XX is as far as any woman could ever go."  Do y'all se what I'm tryin' to say, or am I just confusing the issue? 

 

I'm not trying to stir the pot, as it were, I'm merely requesting information.  It seems to me that a comment/quote/statement like that would put an unreasonable limitation on it, and I don't believe that RJ was big on limitations...  'course, I could be wrong.

 

 

I had a similar thought earlier which is why I asked about the pointing structure people kept refering to. I must say Im not keen on the idea of a limit on channeler strength but every fantasy has its boundaries. RJ had to stop somewhere, and I love the fact that even though there are limits those limits seem to be set way higher than in most other fantasy settings.

 

So, am I right in saying Rand and Lanfear are the only ones that have definitely hit the strength limit?

[Luckers]

Several folks have stated that Lanfear is/was as strong as a woman could be.  Is there something in the books or a quote from RJ stating that no woman could ever be stronger than this one particular channeler?  That no woman could ever be born that could, perhaps, be stronger?  It's like y'all are sayin', "Lanfear had XX channeling strength, and XX is as far as any woman could ever go."  Do y'all se what I'm tryin' to say, or am I just confusing the issue?

 

The suggestion stems from a comment by Cyndane about Alivia. She says that Alivia is 'stronger than she had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her, and that that was impossible' after which she assumes (correctly) that Alivia had an angreal.

 

Now, the significant part is the use of the words 'that was impossible'. Now, the Forsaken are prone to lying to themselves about their relative strengths--RJ even directly commented on that--but Cyndane's comment seems a little different. For starters its second hand, about Alivia--and Cyndane herself is no longer at that strength. Her ego is distanced from the comment in that moment.

 

And Lanfear, as a one power researcher, would have reason to know such things. Yes, its possible there were one or two women in the world fractionally stronger than she was--though it could not be by much, to my mind.

 

For all intents and purposes though we can set Lanfear at the top female strength.

 

What are you saying, that a mere suggestion means more than a statement of fact (I must have misunderstood you, but it sure sounds like that's what you're saying...). Once more, let me insert my quote "Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation". And about knowledge about previous strengths - I don't believe it. RJ has constantly pointed out how people in the series very often don't know what they think they know. It seems highly unlikely that modern AS would know what all-time (all ages) OP strength record could be - especially since the quote says "..., though that was only speculation". "Speculation", as in them believing something likely to be true, rather than knowing 100% what they are talking about.

 

Firstly, what statement of fact does that 'mere' suggestion confront? Elayne's about Alivia in respect to Egwene's about Sharina? The two arn't in contradiction of each other even remotely.

 

Secondly, once again I am not suggesting that the suggestion about Sharina is accurate simply because Aes Sedai said it, im stating what basis Aes Sedai might have to have that knowledge--they themselves show that it is just a suggestion, this is not them stating something as fact out of blind assumption. My point is that to be making a suggestion they must have a reason--they may be wrong, but you don't suggest things in that way without something having made you think of suggesting it.

 

From there I was pointing out that the Aes Sedai do have a pool of knowledge that would lead them to this particular suggestion--specifically, they maintain a rough awareness of the historical strength levels respective to modern ones--and we do know this as a fact. That awareness may have become skewed, may be utterly wrong by now--though i added a reason for it remaining reasonably accurate in the cross over of ages--xsister born 300 years ago know ysister, and comments on ysisters strength relative to her own to wsister--and we do know that despite the Aes Sedai rule against speaking of strength they do it historically about sisters not alive freely and often.

 

But irrespective of whether its accurate still or not, its there. Indeed, it has to be--why suggest Sharina be at that strength if it were not in the face of the Bode's, Elayne's, Nynaeve's and so on. Without a seperate source to compare Sharina to she is merely one step up on an increasing number of women of high strength over an incredibly short period time.

 

Essentially, you say that we cannot trust comments simply because they are said--that RJ has shown people are inclined to believe things without proof--what im saying is that the Aes Sedai do have a basis for this suggestion--it may be wrong still, but its there, and if we're placing people on ranks based on utterly subjective reasoning that should be enough for Sharina--certainly nothing precludes it.

 

I don't think we should do anything of the sort, of course.

 

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RJ shot your argument about Alivia being weaker than Cyndane out of the air--he directly stated that Cyndane survived only because of her superior knowledge of the power.

I disagree, that particular statement from RJ neither supports, nor disproves my argument. I would say that Alivia is probably not considarably weaker than Cyndane. With the angreal, Alivia would probably be able to hold considerably more of saidar. That, plus the ter'angreal, still resulted in a severely injured Alivia (maybe one could say Cyndane "won a victory", even if it didn't resulted in a fatality). On the other hand, if we assume that my argument wouldn't hold. "Shot out of the water", as you say... I'm wrong and Cyndane is weaker than Alivia. With the angreal, Alivia wouldn't just be able to hold considerably more of saidar than Cyndane - it would be such a vaste overkill capacity that I find it extremely, extremely unrealistic that the underdog would succeed in taking Alivia's arm (if someone hadn't been there in time to Heal her).

As you yourself said:

 

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Elayne gives Aviendha an angreal that is weaker than the one Alivia used, and says it would make Aviendha twice Nynaeve's strength. Thats above twice Aviendha's. Alivia using a stronger angreal, no matter what her initial strength was, would have stood at more than twice Cyndane's. Perhaps considerably more.

 

You seem confused at what i was saying there--irrespective of whether Alivia was weaker or stronger than Cyndane, with the angreal she would have ended at over twice Cyndane's strength, but less than thrice. There is no great varience there from the original strength--no suddenly vast overkill.

 

Let me put it this way. Say Aviendha is a 70, and Nynaeve an 80 (purely guesswork numbers, used only to illuminate a point). With the angreal Aviendha ends at 160. Thats a 112% increase. Now the angreal Cyndane used was stronger--lets say a 120% increase.

 

Now, lets say Alivia is an 85, and Cyndane a 90. With that angreal Alivia is still left at 187, still over twice Cyndane's strength. If she's a 100, then she ends at 240, not even thrice Cyndane's strength. There is no suddenly greater overkill there--whatever strength she is more than twice Cyndane's strength, yet not more than thrice it.

 

Furthermore, consider the reality of the fight--Cyndane was able to hide her weave from Alivia's sight, something Alivia had no experience with. Alivia would have felt the sensation of channeling, so the obvious answer was for Cyndane to have divided her weaves, making something to distract Alivia--then place a weave that only manifests visibly right upon her so she has no warning--say a weave like the spark weave Joline uses to singe Mat in KoD.

 

Where precisely does Alivia's greater strength stop that.

 

Cyndane held her own because she knew more about the power--ultimately though Alivia drove her away. Alivia achieved her intention, Cyndane did not. Alivia won.

 

My point here is simple though--Alivia may n

[Thor]

RJ's comment also did not state that Alivia unaided is any stronger than Cyndane.

 

I still maintain that Cyndane is stronger than Alivia if Alivia does not have all the *angreals.

 

Consider that even with superior strength, ter angreal that NULLIFIES flows, Alivia still almost got her arm blown off.

 

Cyndanne didn't leave because she was driven away, she left because she was delayed and could not stop the cleansing in time.  Once she realised the cleansing was done, she left as there is no more point in fighting further.

[Luckers]

RJ's comment also did not state that Alivia unaided is any stronger than Cyndane.

 

I never suggested that it did--i did however state that it blows the argument that Cyndane managing to burn Alivia is because Alivia initially was weaker than Cyndane out of the water. Irrespective of her original strength, she was in that fight above twice Cyndane's strength. That Cyndane managed to burn Alivia speaks to skill, not strength--because, once again, Alivia was more than twice as strong as she was in that fight.

 

Indeed, I'm hardpressed to believe you read my comments at all, given i addressed all that. I've no problem with you disagreeing, but uttering it as if no one had actually bothered to address the point... and then there is this.

 

Consider that even with superior strength, ter angreal that NULLIFIES flows, Alivia still almost got her arm blown off.

 

Quite clearly I commented on that. Here it is...

 

Furthermore, consider the reality of the fight--Cyndane was able to hide her weave from Alivia's sight, something Alivia had no experience with. Alivia would have felt the sensation of channeling, so the obvious answer was for Cyndane to have divided her weaves, making something to distract Alivia--then place a weave that only manifests visibly right upon her so she has no warning--say a weave like the spark weave Joline uses to singe Mat in KoD.

 

Your intended point, that Cyndane managing to burn Alivia in spite of her ter'angreal which, ahem... 'NULLIFIES' flows in some way stands for their relative strength is illogical. Cyndane achieved what she achieved, but it doesn't speak anything to their respective strengths, it speaks to her skill.

 

Cyndanne didn't leave because she was driven away, she left because she was delayed and could not stop the cleansing in time.  Once she realised the cleansing was done, she left as there is no more point in fighting further.

 

Oh? I presume you have a quote to support that. Please cite it.

 

Whilst your looking--Cyndane failed in her objective, Alivia succeeded in her own. Alivia was injured--not because Cyndane was stronger, but because of her superior skill with the power.

 

The whole incident speaks nothing to Alivia's initial strength. She may well be weaker than Cyndane, or she may be as strong as Lanfear--we have no basis to know.