Something to consider

[Thor]

He just wants to.

 

Imagine if one day you woke up and realize that the world is always going around in a cycle. Sombody is bound to come along at some point and say, "hey what happens if we break this cycle".

It was simply inevitable.

 

Why do people get out of the Matrix?  They still live pretty ok lives in the Matrix, so why bother changing?

[Jethro]

As I said before I think Ishamael just wants an end to the recurring war and went to the dark side to be on the winning side. I think its the Dark One who wants the forwarding of time, but until he breaks out and destroys the Wheel, time will always be circular. If he broke the Wheel, the Heroes would die the last time and never be spun out again, meaning nothing-not even the Dragon-would be born again to stop him remaking the world.

 

I really cant understand why the Dark One would want total destruction. None of that rubbish about it being his nature please, thats stereotyping Devil figures and I cant stand that. If the Dark One wanted ultimate destruction why on earth would he have forbade the use of balefire? It can unravel the Pattern if used too much, which is essentially what the Dark One wants, yet he stopped his men from using it even though it would achieve his goal. Why? If the Dark One wants total destruction, why havent the Chosen been just blasting everything away? The White Tower could have been destroyed by now if thats what they wanted.

 

Destruction isnt their goal. Eliminating the Light is.

[LordoftheMorning]

Destruction isnt their goal. Eliminating the Light is.

 

I agree. This makes a lot of sense. If you had to relive the same things over and over again wouldnt you want to break the Wheel of Time. Even if you won every single time, you would get tired of the battle eventually.

[D24g0n]

This is making me rethink the Dark Ones motives...  I still think he wants to destroy everything and remake the wheel his way, but in a different way than I thought before.

 

When I say destroy everything, I mean everything as we know it. Maybe the Dark One can unravel the pattern in a way that it would not be destroyed and he could reweave it.  I think he banned the use of bale fire because it would destroy the pattern so that it could not be salvaged.

 

I do not think the Dark One wants the forwarding of time because then the future is not completely in his control.  However, if he remade the wheel, then everything would be like it is now, except with his changes.  Instead of the Dragon being spun out to combat the Dark One, there would be a dark champion spun out to combat the Creator, etc.  Gaining control of the wheel would be better for the Dark One than making time move forward.

 

I do not think I expressed my thoughts as well as I could have, but I'm still thinking over this.

A part of me thinks that the Dark One would not know what to do if he ever were freed, but that is the side that wants silliness.

[LordoftheMorning]

I cant see the Dark One wanting to destroy the Wheel only to recreate it in his own image, because this still gives the Light the same chance that he has. If he destroys the Wheel and defeats the Dragon wham, no more rebirth. If the Creator doesnt get involved then the Dark One wins. No more battle with the Light because the Light wont ever get a champion again. I think the Dark One doesnt want to destroy the Pattern.. just destroy the Wheel.

[ROB_88]

he does not want to recreate the wheel in his own image, that is stated numerous time. especially in the first couple of dreams.

 

i don't have a quote at the moment but Ba'lzamon says all the time that if Rand loses now it will be lost forever. no more rebirth.

 

off course at  that time he made it look like the Dragon had lost before and there was just something special about this time, we know that's not true but we can be pretty sure that the wheel would be forever gone if the Great Lord won

[D24g0n]

If the Dark One wins and remakes the wheel, he does not have to put the Dragon back in.  So if the Dark One wins the Dragon would never again be reborn.  I do not recall anything that specifically says the Dark One wants to destroy the wheel.

I cant see the Dark One wanting to destroy the Wheel only to recreate it in his own image, because this still gives the Light the same chance that he has. If he destroys the Wheel and defeats the Dragon wham, no more rebirth. If the Creator doesnt get involved then the Dark One wins. No more battle with the Light because the Light wont ever get a champion again. I think the Dark One doesnt want to destroy the Pattern.. just destroy the Wheel.

If the Dark One recreates the pattern his way, he wouldn't be passive about the world like the Creator is.  He wants to control what goes on, so he would squash any resistance before it has a chance.

 

I always thought that by destroying the wheel, you destroy the pattern.  That is how I've viewed it.

he does not want to recreate the wheel in his own image, that is stated numerous time. especially in the first couple of dreams.

I do not remember anything being said about the Dark One not wanting to recreate the wheel, can you get quotes please?

[ROB_88]

now that i think about it i think i assumed to much.

 

he doesn't actually say tha the wheel itself will be destroyed, atleast not that time. Ishy just say that Rand/Lews Therin will never be reborn.

off course that could just mean that he corrupts the wheel to his own liking and removes the Dragon from the wheel

[Jethro]

I cant see the Dark One wanting to destroy the Wheel only to recreate it in his own image, because this still gives the Light the same chance that he has. If he destroys the Wheel and defeats the Dragon wham, no more rebirth. If the Creator doesnt get involved then the Dark One wins. No more battle with the Light because the Light wont ever get a champion again. I think the Dark One doesnt want to destroy the Pattern.. just destroy the Wheel.

 

I believe if the Dark One destroys the Wheel, he will remake the world in his image. The Wheel itself is the only thing keeping the Dark One in his prison-it does this by guiding people like Rand, Mat, Perrin etc towards events that keep the Dark One in place. Without the Wheel, there is nothing to oppose the Dark One-men would no longer have something that just makes them do the right thing. And without that, the Lights chance of winning becomes equal to that of the Dark, rather than unseen forces pushing people to do what they must. Judging how things have gone this time, I reckon that if Rand, Mat and Perrin werent Ta'veren, the Dark would have already won.

[Mr Ares]

He just wants to.

 

Imagine if one day you woke up and realize that the world is always going around in a cycle. Sombody is bound to come along at some point and say, "hey what happens if we break this cycle".

It was simply inevitable.

 

Why do people get out of the Matrix?  They still live pretty ok lives in the Matrix, so why bother changing?

That's not a very satisfying answer. It's inevitable that someone, somewhere, sometime, must want to break the cycle of time, so that someone is Ishy! Yeah, why not, he's as good as anyone.

 

If the Dark One wanted ultimate destruction why on earth would he have forbade the use of balefire?

Did He? Or did the Chosen stop of their own volition. After all, if they want to rule the world, there's no point in destroying it.

It can unravel the Pattern if used too much, which is essentially what the Dark One wants, yet he stopped his men from using it even though it would achieve his goal. Why?

He wants control, and balefire is outside His control.

If the Dark One wants total destruction, why havent the Chosen been just blasting everything away?

Because they don't. They want to rule the world, not destroy it. Ishy aside.

[ROB_88]

so then they aren't really working for the Dark one more as WITH him and making it look like they obey?

[benr]

I think it is rare that anyone knows that they have been re-born in the WOT.  Rand has LTT (and he even doubts that sometimes); he has been convinced by his power and events that he is the DR, but...  Mat has his memories, but he is unsure where they came from.  There are early comments that "the blood of Mannetheran runs deep in the Emonds Field"; perhaps that is reincarnation there.  99.99% of the inhabitants are unaware of any past lives.  In any case, if Ishy is so much of a nihilist, why doesn't he take himself out?  It would seem that he takes his service to the DO more seriously than just ending the world; you can end YOUR whole world quite easily.  I, too, believe that there is more to the DO than just destroying everything.  His concept of time could be very different than the mortals; every defeat may be well within his memory, unlike the mortals.  He is trying to break the Wheel to break that cycle.  What he does after that is unknown.  If he is truly trapped, getting out is the most important thing, and his "fight" is with the Creator, not the inhabitants of Randland.  I think that the destruction of the wheel will lead to linear time, no more re-births, no more Heroes of the Horn, maybe even a destruction of the one power.  In other words, much like what reality is for us. 

[Jethro]

Mat got those memories from the Aelfinn, at the same time he got the foxhead and the ashanerai. After he was Healed of the Shadar Logoth taint he had gaps in his memory which he asked the Aelfinn to fill, but because he didnt specify what he wanted the gaps filled with they gave him battle memories, because they identified him as the Son of Battles. RJ confirmed as much

[ROB_88]

but he also had some of those memorys long before the Finns, i think those were all Manetheren stuff.

in TDR after the healing he had a major flashback of a battle with the trollocs.

[Jethro]

I remember putting that down to the affect the Shadar Logoth evil had on Mat, I believed Mat experienced a brief memory of Mordeths. I cant check it either as Ive lost my copy of TDR

[Mr Ares]

so then they aren't really working for the Dark one more as WITH him and making it look like they obey?

No, they are under him. But they have minds of their own, and their own goals and desires.

 

I think it is rare that anyone knows that they have been re-born in the WOT.

I think perhaps they know they are reborn, but not who they are reborn from. They know everyone is reborn and lives hundreds of lives, but they do not know anything about their other lives.

Mat has his memories, but he is unsure where they came from.

Old Blood, some. Most from the Eelfinn. Old Blood wouldn't appear to be reincarnation.

In any case, if Ishy is so much of a nihilist, why doesn't he take himself out?

Doesn't achieve what he wants. He will still be reborn, the Wheel will continue to turn, Shai'tan will continue to strive for His inevitable victory.

It would seem that he takes his service to the DO more seriously than just ending the world; you can end YOUR whole world quite easily.

But that won't end THE world. It will still exist. Doesn't achieve what he wants. 

I think that the destruction of the wheel will lead to linear time,

Why do people think this?

[benr]

 

I think that the destruction of the wheel will lead to linear time,

Why do people think this?

 

Why not?

[Mr Ares]

I think that the destruction of the wheel will lead to linear time,

Why do people think this?

Why not?

Because there is nothing to indicate that destroying the Wheel would be a good thing.

[benr]

True.  And nothing to indicate otherwise; besides, I don't necessarily buy that linear time is a good thing, or a bad thing.  It is merely a "thing".  But of course, we argue totally from our opinions, as there is little if any evidence to support either conclusion.  It just fits with my personal theory (based on a long ago posit by another poster) about the nature of the Creator, the Dark Lord, and the Wheel.  I don't know that we will get any inkling from AMoL to solve this, either.  Thanks for responding, Mr. Ares.

[Mr Ares]

True. And nothing to indicate otherwise.

Besides the fact Shai'tan is said to want to do it, and most people seem to think His intentions are bad.

I don't know that we will get any inkling from AMoL to solve this, either.

Probably not, no.

Thanks for responding, Mr Ares.

My pleasure.

[Luckers]

but he also had some of those memorys long before the Finns, i think those were all Manetheren stuff.

in TDR after the healing he had a major flashback of a battle with the trollocs.

 

The genetic memories of the old blood are different to the memories the Eelfinn gave him. For one thing that are generic and unspecific whilst the memories the Eelfinn gave him are specific to individuals they encountered--for another Mat is not the only person to experience these genetic memories. Egwene does too, and Moiraine as well as various others seem unsurprised.

 

They are two different things.

 

 

[Jethro]

Egwene also comments that she almost understood what Mat was saying in the Old Tongue. Mat hasnt got any memories from his ancestors, past lives or anything like that. We are eleven books into the series guys, we would know if thats where they had come from by now. The Finns put the war memories in there. Mat started talking the Old Tongue fluently after he had Fains dagger.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

And where have you read that Ishamael has always fought the same side?  Elan morin tedronei (sp?)/Ishamael/Moridin are all one personality, ie he has not been reborn a single time throughout the story.  So ofcourse he has been fighting the same side.  But you don't know who he fought for in previous reincarnations.

In the prologue of the EOTW / Book 1, doesn't Ishy state that he and the Champion of the Light / LTT / The Dragon, have faced off "countless times" before?  This seems to imply he's always been the Champion of the Dark or Naeblis?

 

Makes me think, in answer to the original question behind this thread, that Ishy is the only Forsaken that remembers life before the AOL's and the war of the shadow. 

[Tyrell]

Ishy is just insane on the True Power.

[Majsju]

And where have you read that Ishamael has always fought the same side?  Elan morin tedronei (sp?)/Ishamael/Moridin are all one personality, ie he has not been reborn a single time throughout the story.  So ofcourse he has been fighting the same side.  But you don't know who he fought for in previous reincarnations.

In the prologue of the EOTW / Book 1, doesn't Ishy state that he and the Champion of the Light / LTT / The Dragon, have faced off "countless times" before?  This seems to imply he's always been the Champion of the Dark or Naeblis?

 

Makes me think, in answer to the original question behind this thread, that Ishy is the only Forsaken that remembers life before the AOL's and the war of the shadow. 

 

To use RJs own words, You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but cmon!