What Have You Noticed on the Nth Read Through?

[Graendals favourite]

Why do Rand and Perrin (and other characters) always go on about doing what they must do?  How exactly do they know what they must do?  They are never seem to be given absolutely no choices in any matter, except for Rand fighting the Dark One during the Last Battle.  Why do they always talk about strings being inevitably tied on them?  Is it simply their own perception that they have no choices or are they just failing to realise that they could, in fact, tell the Aes Sedai 'No, go away you dumb b***h and leave me be?'

It is written in a person how they perceive the world and themselves in it. Rand and Perrin see that fighting the Shadow is something they exist to do, because they believe in the prophecies. Did they not, it would be a matter of walking in the Light, for them to act properly. These things they do according to their capabilities, which includes following manners as they have been taught to a degree. Manners, while forming a standardised way of behaving, do also ease communication, people can read the behaviour of others better when they all act according to similar principles. Saying what you mentioned to an Aes Sedai would likely not be a very effective thing to say, as it would not only be rude but also betray weakness. Yet indeed they have much to learn in becoming better in what they seek to do, to fight the Shadow and walk in the Light. Often people are wrong in what they think they must do, but knowing what is the right thing is far from an easy thing to learn.

[rhadamanthus]

Good points Graendal and RAW.  I think I can understand those POVs.

 

I'm not quite sure how we got to this point anymore - but I am afraid I have become some sort of champion for the "Rand needs to kick a woman's ass Fan Club".  That's not at all what I was intending.

 

Suffice to say I am not displeased with the demeanor of either Matt/Rand/Perrin - I just find it a bit of a letdown.  Not because of the tension it creates (I like that), but because it seems like a strange paradox in a culture full of women who are immensely powerful, with considerable status and responsibility.  As the reader, one sees these attributes clearly, but Rand/Matt/Perrin act like they don't exist, and that seems to be localized predominantly to just those three.  Certainly, the vast majority of the male characters in the series seem to understand the place women have in RandLand.

[adverge]

 

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Jordan is trying to create a world where there is a lot of ignorance about what the other people are doing. 

 

Look, for example, at all those spymasters who absolutely never believe what we know to be truth.

 

Rand, Mat, and Perrin are ignorant about the capabilities of women because they come from the Two Rivers and were cut off from the rest of the world.  In the first book they didn't really have a clue about how the world worked and were overawed when they hit a very small city. 

 

I like the idea that they have no clue what is going on in other parts of the world, because it's annoying when you read a book and the farmboy hero seems to know all the social graces and political problems of the world he inhabits.  In this serious, the reader is in the know and characters are struggling.  I like that but I think that Jordan, instead of doing it subtly hit us with a hammer over our heads.  It gets annoying.

 

I'm all for Rand being protective towards a certain segment of his followers, that's understandable.  It's just really difficult to get my head around the fact he's so extremely overprotective to the point of stupidity towards half of his followers.

 

 

I also don't think that Rand, Mat, and Perrin (who drives me crazy with all his talk about being big, hurting people, and thinking slow) would be rude if they told off the Aes Sedai.  Rand and Mat are especially in a good place to stand up to these irritating women.  Aes Sedai are unbelievably rude.  Sure, they had a lot of power for a long time, but wow are they ever rude.  What comes to mind is when Mat was travelling with Nynaeve and Elaine to Ebu Dar (I think, I can never remember the city names).  Elaine was so unbelievably rude to him, demanding he give her the medallion and trying to take over his men.  Sure, she's supposed to be a queen one day and lead her own army, but she should have realised that those soldiers did not have any alliegance to her and were not her army.  And he just stood back and took it!  I think that he should have taken her aside and told her to to not interfere with his men and tell her straight up that they are his men, not hers, and to stop behaving like a spoiled child.  He was in a great position to do so, Rand's woman or not!  The whole thing irritated me even though I like Elaine as a character - she needs some personality growth though, which is what I thought would happen eventually.

 

I'm rambling.  I'm stopping now.

[rhadamanthus]

What comes to mind is when Mat was travelling with Nynaeve and Elaine to Ebu Dar (I think, I can never remember the city names).  Elaine was so unbelievably rude to him, demanding he give her the medallion and trying to take over his men.  Sure, she's supposed to be a queen one day and lead her own army, but she should have realised that those soldiers did not have any alliegance to her and were not her army.  And he just stood back and took it!  I think that he should have taken her aside and told her to to not interfere with his men and tell her straight up that they are his men, not hers, and to stop behaving like a spoiled child.  He was in a great position to do so, Rand's woman or not!  The whole thing irritated me even though I like Elaine as a character - she needs some personality growth though, which is what I thought would happen eventually.

 

That part actually did not bother me.  I took it as part of the "growing process" for all three of them.  Matt had to learn to be more assertive, just as Nyn and Elayne needed to learn not to think of Matt as merely an ignorant lout.  Elayne also had to learn that being duaghter-heir really means very little for non-national parties/events.

[Lord Nik]

Like all of you I have read the series many times...

Bluntly put I have noticed

 

The male characters being awesome.

 

Elayne, Egwene, and sometimes Nyneave being so incredibly frustrating that you want to tear out your own hair.

 

And agreeing with the post above me how rude the AS are... I dont understand how Mat Perrin and Rand have a problem when woman characters die. Well I understand from where they grew up ect ect...... But Having them die in the book doesnt bug me at all...

sometimes I even give myself a high five on those occasions

 

ahem*

[adverge]

 

Today I realised how awesome a character Tylan is.  She's great.  She's so confident and a good ruler, and has an interestin personality that actually differs from the other women in the series.  She's what Morgase should have been.

 

I also noticed that I don't believe I like Cadusuane too much.  I remember being irritated by her attitude and the way Rand shook in his boots around her the other times I've read the series.  I'm trying to understand why she introduced herself the way she did, but I can't really get past the incredible rudeness.

 

I did find the Rand and Min sex scene that I couldn't remember in another thread though.

[DemandredFO]

All this about not understanding the suicidal chivalry that Rand, Mat and to a lesser extent Perrin have the best person to ask would be a knight several centuries dead.  They would give you most of it but layered on top of stuff that went on in our world is also the fact of where they grew up and the skewed nature of their society.

[RobertAlexWillis]

All this about not understanding the suicidal chivalry that Rand, Mat and to a lesser extent Perrin have the best person to ask would be a knight several centuries dead.

 

Actually, it might be better to ask a poet ... most of the real knights were not actually very much like the stories.

[rhadamanthus]

New "Nth read through" questions:

 

1) In CoT, "The Subject of Negotiations", Egwene explains to Gareth why she cannot allow traveling into Tar Valon for war.  She says "I have to keep the white tower alive - against Tarmon Gai'don - to stand between the world and the Asha'man - and the tower will die if it comes to sisters killing each other in the streets of Tar Valon."

 

What in the heck is she talking about here?  Assuming that she does not know about the cleansing of the taint at this point, one could interpret the inclusion of the Asha'man as a reference to madness and the destruction it can cause.  But she specifically includes the Asha'man with Tarmon Gai'don...  Is she implying the two are the same?  This has always been a source of irritation - Egwene wraps herself in a cloak of "Aes Sedai are the best and will protect the world" while she spends five freeking books fighting black ajah, a broken tower, and playing endless petty politics with who?  The very same Aes Sedai!  Everytime I feel the need to defend Egwene I remember this enormous hypocrisy and keep my mouth shut.

 

2)  Can someone explain to me how Beonin gets out of her oath of fealty again?  IIRC, she says that since Egwene is no longer Amyriln, than her oath no longer holds since she swore to the amyriln.  But that would mean that she believes Elaida's decree that Egwene is a novice, even though the rest of the Salidar loonies obviously do not.  This is either a contradiction or Beonin is intentionally decieving herself - either of which is bloody unrealistic, particularly since she gave all the special weaves to Elaida - who will of course eventually use them to combat the rebels.  I.e., if Beonin believes Elaida an usurper, than Egwene is still the amyriln - if she believes the opposite, than how did her original oath hold at all?

[Luckers]

What in the heck is she talking about here?  Assuming that she does not know about the cleansing of the taint at this point, one could interpret the inclusion of the Asha'man as a reference to madness and the destruction it can cause.  But she specifically includes the Asha'man with Tarmon Gai'don...  Is she implying the two are the same?  This has always been a source of irritation - Egwene wraps herself in a cloak of "Aes Sedai are the best and will protect the world" while she spends five freeking books fighting black ajah, a broken tower, and playing endless petty politics with who?  The very same Aes Sedai!  Everytime I feel the need to defend Egwene I remember this enormous hypocrisy and keep my mouth shut.

 

Firstly, she did not know of the cleansing--she still doesn't, in fact.

 

Beyond that, why shouldn't she include the Asha'men with Tarmon Gai'don? Madmen who can channel in great numbers broke the world last time, she has to assume it will happen again. If I were her i'd feel the same--the Asha'men going mad represent as great a risk to the world as Tarmon Gai'don.

 

It's not like she's blind to the need for Aes Sedai--she even states at one stage that she suspects Rand may be right, and the Asha'men may be nessasary, but that doesn't change the fact that the Aes Sedai will have to deal with them before they go mad (as far as she knows).

 

As for Aes Sedai politics. Yes, its annoying. But she is their leader, why shouldn't she hold it as her responsibility to see they survive to help shield the world from the dangers that are coming. Far from irritating i find this noble. Yes its a little bit patronizing--but Egwene grew up in a world that even when it feared Aes Sedai respected their power. Of course she's going to see that power as something that can be used to save the world.

 

2)  Can someone explain to me how Beonin gets out of her oath of fealty again?  IIRC, she says that since Egwene is no longer Amyriln, than her oath no longer holds since she swore to the amyriln.  But that would mean that she believes Elaida's decree that Egwene is a novice, even though the rest of the Salidar loonies obviously do not.  This is either a contradiction or Beonin is intentionally decieving herself - either of which is bloody unrealistic, particularly since she gave all the special weaves to Elaida - who will of course eventually use them to combat the rebels.  I.e., if Beonin believes Elaida an usurper, than Egwene is still the amyriln - if she believes the opposite, than how did her original oath hold at all?

 

The oaths are subjective. Completely and utterly subjective. This has been said time and again. Beonin believed with Egwene's fall that the Rebellion was done for, and if the Rebellion was done with then their 'hall of servants' had no legal basis, and as such the Amyrlin they elected was not Amyrlin, thus her oath of fealty to the Amyrlin held no sway.

 

That others saw things differently is irrelevent, all that matters is how Beonin saw things, and under her perception her oath no longer applied. Had she waited a few days before returning to the Tower--even long enough for Siuan to tell her Egwene's commands and to know the Rebels intended following them she likely wouldn't have been able to proceed. But she genuinely thought the Rebellion was over.

 

That's all that was nessasary.

 

 

[rhadamanthus]

Firstly, she did not know of the cleansing--she still doesn't, in fact.

 

True.  I should have remembered.

 

As for Aes Sedai politics. Yes, its annoying. But she is their leader, why shouldn't she hold it as her responsibility to see they survive to help shield the world from the dangers that are coming. Far from irritating i find this noble. Yes its a little bit patronizing--but Egwene grew up in a world that even when it feared Aes Sedai respected their power. Of course she's going to see that power as something that can be used to save the world.

 

No argument.  I just find the situation tantamount to ignoring reality.  All sides could use a serious does of humility at this point - but Egwene and the rest of the "Aes Sedai to save the world" crowd are by far the most deserving of this chastisement.

 

The oaths are subjective. Completely and utterly subjective. This has been said time and again. Beonin believed with Egwene's fall that the Rebellion was done for, and if the Rebellion was done with then their 'hall of servants' had no legal basis, and as such the Amyrlin they elected was not Amyrlin, thus her oath of fealty to the Amyrlin held no sway.

 

That others saw things differently is irrelevent, all that matters is how Beonin saw things, and under her perception her oath no longer applied. Had she waited a few days before returning to the Tower--even long enough for Siuan to tell her Egwene's commands and to know the Rebels intended following them she likely wouldn't have been able to proceed. But she genuinely thought the Rebellion was over.

 

That's all that was nessasary.

 

I find this hard to swallow, frankly.  It works, don't get me wrong - but it makes a mockery of conviction.  Beonin thinks the rebellion is over that quickly?  Color me skeptical.

[benr]

the Asha'men going mad represent as great a risk to the world as Tarmon Gai'don.

 

 

 

 

The risk is great, but if the theory that the DO winning destroys time, therefore destroys everything is correct, then that risk is far greater.  Sorry - nitpicking, I know. 

[Luckers]

Ah, but according to the Aes Sedai there was a chance that without the Ogier's sanctuary the world would have been completely destroyed.

 

Of course there were millions of men then, and only a thousand or so now, but Egwene doesn't know that. From her perspective the men going mad risks the total destruction of the world--which might not equal the destruction of the universe objectively--but again,from Egwene's perspective the two results are pretty equal.

[benr]

True.  And also, even though Egwene is unaware of the risk, Taim's troops are a tremendous threat to the Light.

[Luckers]

Sorry Rhadamanthus, your post didn't appear on my screen for some reason--i wasn't ignoring you.

 

No argument.  I just find the situation tantamount to ignoring reality.  All sides could use a serious does of humility at this point - but Egwene and the rest of the "Aes Sedai to save the world" crowd are by far the most deserving of this chastisement.

 

Aes Sedai arrogance is a deffinate issue, i agree. In fact if you want to look up my 'life and times of an Aes Sedai' thread i speak about that alot.

 

But i dont think it can be phrased as 'ignoring' reality. They percieve reality through their own lens, but they are ignoring anything.

 

It's the difference between negligence and ignorance. Egwene means well, but her knowledge is incomplete, and thus her decisions are compromised.

 

I find this hard to swallow, frankly.  It works, don't get me wrong - but it makes a mockery of conviction.  Beonin thinks the rebellion is over that quickly?  Color me skeptical.

 

Thats actually a major problem of the Aes Sedai--the oaths are all about something bad... lying, killing, making weapons so others can kill. All these things are bad--yet they are at times nessasary. The problem with the Aes Sedai is that as they are bound by the power, the onus for doing these things becomes not 'when it is nessasary' but 'when it is possible'. It's the old, 'what's not forbidden is allowed' issue.

 

The Aes Sedai have lost any form of realistic understanding of the moral issues involved with lying--they even practice giving 'Aes Sedai answers' as a part of preperation for the shawl. They practice lying by ommition or evasion as a required skill to become Aes Sedai... you say its a loss of conviction, but they don't even understand the principal, so how could they even have convictions to begin with.

 

I'm not saying its nice--its actually disgusting. But it makes sense.

[rhadamanthus]

But i dont think it can be phrased as 'ignoring' reality. They percieve reality through their own lens, but they are ignoring anything.

 

I said "tantamount"....  It's difficult to account for Egwene's POV as ignorance, since the enormous issues the Aes Sedai, as a society, have are staring her in the face daily at this point.  A more accurate portrayal might be a stubborn belief that the Aes Sedai are the world's hope - but that is both good and bad.  It's good, because it gives her a cause to fight for.  It's bad because it encourages arrogance and dissociation with other forces on her "side".  That she, for all her experience with the hall and Elaida, still fails to realize this is maddening.  The lack of any appreciable alliance without Rand's direct (and often blunt) intervention anywhere in the series is approaching ludicrous levels.  I hope Sanderson hammers home rectification of this in AMoL.

 

Thats actually a major problem of the Aes Sedai--the oaths are all about something bad... lying, killing, making weapons so others can kill. All these things are bad--yet they are at times nessasary. The problem with the Aes Sedai is that as they are bound by the power, the onus for doing these things becomes not 'when it is nessasary' but 'when it is possible'. It's the old, 'what's not forbidden is allowed' issue.

 

The Aes Sedai have lost any form of realistic understanding of the moral issues involved with lying--they even practice giving 'Aes Sedai answers' as a part of preperation for the shawl. They practice lying by ommition or evasion as a required skill to become Aes Sedai... you say its a loss of conviction, but they don't even understand the principal, so how could they even have convictions to begin with.

 

Well said.  If anything, this justification only further emphasizes how badly the Aes Sedai need to be taken down a peg.  Their entire mythos has been reduced to a joke ever since Siuan was deposed.  Actually, ever since Gitara foretold of Rand's birth.

 

 

EDIT:  As for conviction, I meant Beonin conviction that the rebellion was justified.  I mean, either she sided with them or she didn't.  Obviously, she did - but then just threw that entire ideology away once Egwene was captured?  That does not strike you as outrageous?

[Luckers]

I said "tantamount"....  It's difficult to account for Egwene's POV as ignorance, since the enormous issues the Aes Sedai, as a society, have are staring her in the face daily at this point.  A more accurate portrayal might be a stubborn belief that the Aes Sedai are the world's hope - but that is both good and bad.  It's good, because it gives her a cause to fight for.  It's bad because it encourages arrogance and dissociation with other forces on her "side".  That she, for all her experience with the hall and Elaida, still fails to realize this is maddening.  The lack of any appreciable alliance without Rand's direct (and often blunt) intervention anywhere in the series is approaching ludicrous levels.  I hope Sanderson hammers home rectification of this in AMoL.

 

As original as Egwene is--compared to other Aes Sedai--she is still subject to their indoctrination. And lets not forget that Egwene throws herself whole-heartedly into what she desires to be--her desire to be the best water-carrier in Ravens, her desire to be the youngest girl to braid her hair, her unbraiding of her hair because Moiraine doesn't do it, he wearing Aiel clothes and living like an Aiel whilst she is learning dreaming.

 

She puts her whole heart into what she does. In some ways it might even be a requirement in a leader. I'm not saying it doesn't blind her, but its there.

 

And lets not forget that Aran'gar was compelling her. Some of her decisions were influenced--like the one about making sure the Aes Sedai keep the oaths.

 

EDIT:  As for conviction, I meant Beonin conviction that the rebellion was justified.  I mean, either she sided with them or she didn't.  Obviously, she did - but then just threw that entire ideology away once Egwene was captured?  That does not strike you as outrageous?

 

She actually never sided with them--she was sent by Elaida to distabalize the Rebellion. Others organised for the Ferrets to be sent and she couldn't stop it, and when Egwene discovered the Ferrets she was forced to swear fealty out of fear of the punishment. But she never emotionally sided with the rebels.

[rhadamanthus]

She actually never sided with them--she was sent by Elaida to distabalize the Rebellion. Others organised for the Ferrets to be sent and she couldn't stop it, and when Egwene discovered the Ferrets she was forced to swear fealty out of fear of the punishment. But she never emotionally sided with the rebels.

 

Than her oath never meant anything, since she was swearing to an amyriln she never thought was an amyriln.  Which means she should not have been able too swear at all, as it would have been lying to herself as she did it, unless she swore to Egwene, in which case the oath would still hold.

 

I have never been comfortable with Jordan's twist here.

 

As for Egwene, it's not something vicious, just a hope I have that the Aes Sedai realize they are not the hope for the world.  They are just a part of it.  Maybe that's ancillary, but it would do much to resolve everyone's fear of working with them - an irony the Aes Sedai of course never realize - much to my chagrin and/or disbelief.  Of course, as you point out in the "Verin" thread - the truly impressive Aes Sedai (I resist "older" - there are hordes of retardedly stupid old Aes Sedai) are the one's who recognize this already (verin, cadsuane, moraine, maybe even alanna post-far madding)

 

I mentioned previously in a different thread how I really enjoyed the scene where Merise berates the salidar Aes Sedai (and the tower folks too) for their petty infighting.  It's a shame Egwene was not there to hear it and understand what "taking the high road" really means with respect to Tarmon Gai'don.

[Luckers]

Than her oath never meant anything, since she was swearing to an amyriln she never thought was an amyriln.  Which means she should not have been able too swear at all, as it would have been lying to herself as she did it, unless she swore to Egwene, in which case the oath would still hold.

 

She didn't agree with Egwene being Amyrlin, but legally she was--as a grey she had to acknowledge that a hall of sitters elected by the sisters had elected an Amyrlin under the law. It wasn't until Egwene fell that Beonin could justify in her own head that the Rebellion had failed, and thus invalidated the legalities of their claims.

 

Remember, Beonin was a Grey.

 

As for Egwene, it's not something vicious, just a hope I have that the Aes Sedai realize they are not the hope for the world.  They are just a part of it.  Maybe that's ancillary, but it would do much to resolve everyone's fear of working with them - an irony the Aes Sedai of course never realize - much to my chagrin and/or disbelief.  Of course, as you point out in the "Verin" thread - the truly impressive Aes Sedai (I resist "older" - there are hordes of retardedly stupid old Aes Sedai) are the one's who recognize this already (verin, cadsuane, moraine, maybe even alanna post-far madding)

 

I hope they realise that too, but they havn't yet. And your right, its not old--Verin's not that old you know, she's only around 170. And Moiraine, a picture perfect image of this idea was only 46.

 

But definately absolutely not alanna. She is the image of what is wrong with Aes Sedai--petulant, self-absorbed, childish.

 

I mentioned previously in a different thread how I really enjoyed the scene where Merise berates the salidar Aes Sedai for their petty infighting with the tower.  It's a shame Egwene was not there to hear it and understand what "taking the high road" really means with respect to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I loved that scene.

[rhadamanthus]

She didn't agree with Egwene being Amyrlin, but legally she was--as a grey she had to acknowledge that a hall of sitters elected by the sisters had elected an Amyrlin under the law. It wasn't until Egwene fell that Beonin could justify in her own head that the Rebellion had failed, and thus invalidated the legalities of their claims.

 

Remember, Beonin was a Grey.

 

Oh come on!  That's a huge stretch.  Certainly having TWO amyrilns is illegal as well.  Heck, having a rival set of Aes Sedai choose a new hall and new amyriln is already way outside tower law.  Even if you could rationalize that, Elaida branded them all rebels to the freeking tower! 

 

But definately absolutely not alanna. She is the image of what is wrong with Aes Sedai--petulant, self-absorbed, childish.

 

Post her conversation with Rand in Far Madding she seems a bit better.  But yeah, probably not on par with the other three.

 

[Mr Ares]

Oh come on! That's a huge stretch. Certainly having TWO amyrilns is illegal as well. Heck, having a rival set of Aes Sedai choose a new hall and new amyriln is already way outside tower law. Even if you could rationalize that, Elaida branded them all rebels to the freeking tower!

Did Elaida have the right to do that? To be raised Amyrlin requires support from all Ajahs, and no Blue voted for Elaida. Removing Siuan didn't require a Blue, and so was perfectly legal. Elaida just made the two issues one and the same and forced it through. She is no more legitimate than Egwene.

[rhadamanthus]

Oh come on! That's a huge stretch. Certainly having TWO amyrilns is illegal as well. Heck, having a rival set of Aes Sedai choose a new hall and new amyriln is already way outside tower law. Even if you could rationalize that, Elaida branded them all rebels to the freeking tower!

Did Elaida have the right to do that? To be raised Amyrlin requires support from all Ajahs, and no Blue voted for Elaida. Removing Siuan didn't require a Blue, and so was perfectly legal. Elaida just made the two issues one and the same and forced it through. She is no more legitimate than Egwene.

 

That's not the point here - the point is how Beonin rationalized her oath - both in giving it and in getting rid of it.  Neither of which make sense IMO.

[Mr Ares]

That's not the point here - the point is how Beonin rationalized her oath - both in giving it and in getting rid of it. Neither of which make sense IMO.

She accepted Egwene as legitimate, then she decided she wasn't legitimate any more, and thus her oath no longer held. She had been elected, and thus was as legitimate an Amyrlin as anyone. After she was captured, she was no longer Amyrlin, not as a prisoner with no hope of rescue. She was a novice, not the Amyrlin. So when she was raised, she was Amyrlin, then she became a novice and so was Amyrlin no more, and then Egwene made it clear to her that she was still Amyrlin so the oath still held.

[rhadamanthus]

She accepted Egwene as legitimate, then she decided she wasn't legitimate any more, and thus her oath no longer held. She had been elected, and thus was as legitimate an Amyrlin as anyone. After she was captured, she was no longer Amyrlin, not as a prisoner with no hope of rescue. She was a novice, not the Amyrlin. So when she was raised, she was Amyrlin, then she became a novice and so was Amyrlin no more, and then Egwene made it clear to her that she was still Amyrlin so the oath still held.

 

Since she was willingly sent by Elaida one can reasonably assume she does not view Egwene as legitimate.

 

There appear to be three options:

 

A)  Beonin views Elaida as legitimate and the rebels as ...well... rebels.  In that vein her oath to Egwene the amyrlin was never worth anything, and was presumably impossible to make, since she would have no way to avoid her "knowing" that Egwene was not the amyrlin.

 

B)  Beonin thinks Elaida is an usurper.  Then why did she so quickly jump ship once Egwene was captured, and give Elaida the weaves/ferrets as well?  This makes the least sense - since it would be ridiculous to think that someone who does not support Elaida would then actively help her.

 

C)  She thinks Elaida is not the amyriln, but also thinks that Egwene is no longer the amyriln.  Again - why would she jump at the chance to work for Elaida then, and actively help her cause?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Guys.

 

Something that I think needs to be remembered in dealing with the First Oath.  People can believe some truly irrational things.  I mean genuinely believe them.  And no matter how irrational, factually inaccurate, or in any other way inconsistent a belief might be, if the Sister believes that she is not violating the First Oath, then the First Oath has no effect on her.  It is all, completely in the Sister's mind.  The First Oath has nothing to do with actual objective reality.

 

If a Sister changes her mind, then what she can say or do changes.  And folks, I'm here to tell you, people can convince themselves of some astonishingly irrational things, in just about any context.  Logic and reality have nothing to do with the First Oath.

 

The First Oath has an awful lot of holes in it.  The Black Ajah hunters planned to use it as their means of ferreting out Black Sisters, but they didn't find anyone by tracing a documented violation of the First Oath, because a skilled mind can twist just about anything into a form that will pass the First Oath test, in their own mind.  And their own mind is the only thing that matters.