What Have You Noticed on the Nth Read Through?

[DemandredFO]

Another thing I noticed in tDR, I forget what chapter, Egwene has a dream where Matt has a falcon on his shoulder and Perrin has a hawk on his, both birds are female.  I see several possibilities

1.  A mistake and it is the other way around

2.  The Falcon is Moiriane, Perrin says on the ship when they're exiting Perrin says Moiraine and Faile looked like Falcon and Mouse and this time Moiraine was the Falcon

 

Can someone help me with this, I searched and didn't find anything.  Thank you

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perrin has the hawk on his shoulder, and is with the falcon.  (TDR ch 25) The falcon is Faile, of course, and the Hawk is Berelain, who is descended from Hawkwing.  The hawk is trying to leash him, as Berelain was trying to control Perrin. 

 

Mat isn't involved with the birds in this particular dream, although he does have Ravens on his shoulders in another of Egwene's dreams (LoC ch 15) Obviously that is a reference to the Seanchan.  Egwene does think to herself that Mat is no more aware of the Ravens claws than Perrin had been of the hawk and the falcon.

 

As for what I've noticed recently:

 

This may not be terribly significant, or it may be very meaningful.  Rand and Moridin were holding hands when they "crossed the streams" in Shadar Logoth.  See the Bodyswap Theory thread for potential ramifications (hint: the Warder bond requires physical contact to be woven ...)

[Mr Ares]

They don't interact at all like real women - real women don't do all this hierarchy nonsense and bullying that these women do

Really?

 

 

[CUBAREY]

I am still irritated that Rand doesn't feel women can be criminally responsible for themselves (refusing to hang the Tear High Lady) or capable of making the decision they want to fight.  It also irritates me that he seems to feel that women are worth more than men if they're killed - that's just plain insulting to men.

 

Rand, Matt and Perrin's view of women is not irrational. It is the same type of mentality that a young well educated "Chivelrous" man would have had pre-feminest movement in our own age. Remember they are hicks from a backwater region. Does their thought process seem strange to a modern audience brought up post 1960's of course, but it was the prevalent mind set (at least in the US and much of Europe) within the lifespan of many of RJ's more mature (not to call myself decrepid) readers.

 

real women don't do all this hierarchy nonsense

 

Ever witness women interact within a corporate setting or a highly structured religous setting?

[tnsabregirl]

One thing I noticed this time is when Lady Shiane executes Jaichim Carridin...For some reason, on earlier reads, I had failed to notice that that poor soul was THE Jaichim Carridin of Whitecloak notoriety...Weird.

And a bit of an aside here....

 

I think sometimes the characterizations of women in WoT go overboard, but I would not say they are totally unrealistic. These somewhat strange-seeming ideas are much more familiar to those of us who live in the Southern U.S. (as R.J. did), where the concept of chivalry and a bit of an old fashioned view of how women should be treated is still quite common, especially in rural areas or among traditionalists.

 

The idea that women should never be physically harmed, even if they richly deserve it, and yet that they can be powerful, even ruthless in their way, is something you still see today. For example, my husband, who grew up in rural Tennessee as I did, would never lay a hand on any woman, regardless of how she tried to hurt him, except if he had to do so in order to defend MY life. Yet, that desire to protect me co-exists simultaneously with the assertion that I am strong, powerful, and not necessarily in need of protection. Yet he still would do so - it was the "way he was brought up". Women, to him and the gentlemen like him, are to be treasured and protected; not necessarily because they have any lack of confidence in our abilities to fend for ourselves, rather it is a show of respect that says, "you are valued, and so I will protect you, even from the consequences of your own actions." You see this very clearly in Rand, Mat and, to a certain extent, the warders, even though they are supposed to allow the Aes Sedai to "share" the risks of their service. The other side of this coin is, that if a woman means to harm them or others, they will try to protect whomever is in harm's way without doing harm to the woman herself; instead, they will try to hold her or restrict her without actually hurting her.

 

The other part of this discussion relates to the "pecking order" you see among the Aes Sedai and among the women in general. I can't speak for other parts of the U.S., but here in the South, if you've ever seen a large wedding come together or a big Church picnic, you'll have seen this type of hierarchy at work. Usually, the "matriarch" will be some older woman or group of women who are wise and skilled at getting things done that need to be done. Woe to he or she that thinks to sit aside and let others do all the work, for these women will find a way to make you busy that you will likely not enjoy. These older women run the show, and everyone else runs about, fetching and scurrying as they direct.

 

But if a younger woman proves herself capable, she can advance more rapidly in this matriarchy, and will be given tasks to supervise commensurate with her abilities and energy. In fact, usually such a protege will be selected by one or more of the older women, with the idea that she will one day replace them in their responsibilities, when they die or can no longer carry them out for the family, church, etc. Younger women with potential are groomed for these social responsibilities, in a way serving an informal apprenticeship, while the older women make sure she knows her duties.

 

I've seen this throughout my life:

 

• the pianist for the church selects a young lady with some musical interest and teachers her how to play and select music for the choir;
  
• the older lady who is always the hostess for neighborhood social functions finds a niece or cousin to help her and shares her recipes with her;
  
• the head gardener at a volunteer community garden finds a younger gardener who is skillful to assist her in managing the new planting beds;
  

 

You see this repeated over and over throughout society. The thing is, you don't really think about it; growing up, you just accept that that is the way things are done. Very similar to the way that Cadsuane seems to be schooling Nynaeve and the way that Moirane trained Egwene starting out.

 

Sorry for the long explanation. I do think what we are seeing here are nods to R.J's southern/rural upbringing; I doubt very seriously he had any other agenda than simply portraying the social interactions that he had seen around him growing up.

[adverge]

 

I am a woman in real life and I don't interact with other women like these do.  I admit, there is some hierarchy involved, but in the books it's *all* the time.  Women even one rung higher *always* bully and behave extremely rudely to the women below them.  Women aren't this openly rude and bullying to other women.  It's much more subtle and hidden.

 

The same with women's interactions with men in the books.  I can buy women being the more powerful of the sexes in this world but the women are always extremely rude to the men, and the men never call them down for it. 

 

I think it's the extreme, overt rudeness of the women that really irritates them about me.

 

I have a theory that Jordan really liked the personality of Nynaeve so much she leaked into all the other female characters.  Only the female characters introduced before or around the same time escape her personality seeping into them, such as Egwene (although she's pretty rude on her own), Moiraine, and Mistress al'Vere (who I think works really well as a middle-aged matriarch).

 

On another note about Moiraine, I found that on my re-read of Eye of the World she was really stupid when she was dealing with Rand, Mat, and Perrin at first.  Especially when she sunk the ferry when they were running from the fade and Trollocs.  She was happily answering questions until the moment they asked her why she sunk the ferry, and at that point she snapped at them to shut up.  And they spent half the book worrying about that ferry sinking (although I personally would have been more worried about the fire she was shooting at the Trollocs).  If she had simply told them that she sunk it so the fade and Trollocs would probably be slowed down crossing the river by sinking the ferry she might have had more of their confidence.  She does similar things like this for the first two or three books, when a simple explanation would have probably done a world of good.  That's the only thing that really irritates me about Moiraine.  Other than that, I think she's one of the more interesting characters in the novels.

 

[tnsabregirl]

Some good points there, adverge. Do you think this overt bullying and maneuvering is simply because these women are at the center of our story and are also under a great deal of pressure (saving the world and all that)? I have seen things get pretty nasty right before a big Wedding day! ;D But everyone becomes more tolerant when the "big day" is past.

[adverge]

 

That's another big thing!  They're supposed to be trying to save the world.  They all talk about prophecies and how important it all is, but they all seem more interested in bullying each other and carving out power niches.  I don't get it.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Women aren't this openly rude and bullying to other women.

You speak for all women, everywhere, everywhen? It might be far more commonplace in other places and other times than it is where and when you are from.

 

I have a theory that Jordan really liked the personality of Nynaeve so much she leaked into all the other female characters.

RJ has said that all the women were based on his wife.

 

That's another big thing! They're supposed to be trying to save the world. They all talk about prophecies and how important it all is, but they all seem more interested in bullying each other and carving out power niches.

Yes, people are like that.

[CUBAREY]

She does similar things like this for the first two or three books, when a simple explanation would have probably done a world of good.

 

And would have found herself spending 9/10's of the books explaining herself to the Two Rivers people when immediate action was necessary for survival. There is a reason why officers do not explain their decisions to their underlings in combat. Even if it can be justified it takes up to much time that should be spent fighting the enemy. And like it or not Morraine saw herself and the Two Rivers people fighting a real war with the forces of Darkness.

[DemandredFO]

Going to the post about people scheming and stuff when they should be saving the world, that always happens.  Read some books about WWII or other major wars and you will.

[tnsabregirl]

I really must apologize to the thread - it wasn't my intention to get us off-topic on the discussion of what we found in our most recent re-reads.  :-[

 

For my part, another thing I noticed this time through was how many mistakes the Forsaken do make - mainly because they first underestimate Rand, et.al (because he is just a 'shepherd', right?), THEN they overestimate him and his friends after one or two of them are killed because they think perhaps that he may have more of Lews Therin's knowledge than he does at that point! It just goes to show that you truly can outwit yourself. It also shows that their mind sets are so different from Rand and the others from the Two Rivers that they usually can't understand what motivates the mat all. It's only until the later books that they really start getting some insight into his true character and the capabilities of his friends and allies.

[Marussan]

(one more post on that topic)

 

I would have to say that from the viewpoint of a man that was raised with traditional southern values, the male interaction towards their female counterparts are spot on. (especially when dealing with pre-1960's America)

 

As for the female actions and interactions, from the viewpoint of a man looking into these various social settings, the portrayal looks fairly accurate.  I, of course, am not a woman, nor have a degree in psychology.

 

;D

 

(now for what I noticed on the last read through)

 

The last time I read through the books I really paid more attention to the prophecies as given by the various characters and began to notice that the ones unfulfilled can in essence deliver a really good plot line for the last book.  If what I am thinking is correct then we are in for a very good ending to the series.

 

 

[Bela]

The thing I have realized in my latest re-read is just how funny the books are. I find myself laughing at least once or twice every chapter, and often more (Mat's chapters for example). It seems as if I am reading a comedic fantasy rather than just fantasy.

[Lord Nik]

Something I noticed (I noticed Mat was the best in the first read through, let alone the ones on top of that) But I noticed Moraines memory problem in book two.

 

"Moraine had never before even thought of wielding the power against another Aes Sedai." (page 109)

 

 

Then in New Spring* Moraines battle with the Aes Sedai near the end of the book. She may have been black but still.

So she had *<i> never before thought of using the power on another channeler excepting the battle that she had with an Aes Sedai </i>

I have a head ache so im not referencing it lol. I also realize this book was written in the middle of the series but I still saw it!

<b>I posted this on another topic... on the wrong topic so that is why its here</b>

[rhadamanthus]

Another thing I noticed on my latest read through (I'm about half way through WH)...

 

The sea folk are still unrealistically irritating.  And I don't just mean the characters themselves (although that is obvious), I mean also in how they relate to other characters...

 

E.g.:  So Elayne and Nyneave screw up the deal and now the sea folk are owed lessons.  They abuse this constantly - and get away with it!  All it would take is for one of the Aes Sedai (you know, those women who everywhere else in the series are unflappably vigilant in protecting their interests) to say "you know, I said we'd teach you, not be your slaves - keep this up and the bargain is null and void".  But they never do.  It's absolutely ridiculous, and can only be allowed to further some nefarious scheme of Jordan's to make everyone hate the sea folk.  Talk about irritating.

[adverge]

 

I just got to the part where Mat goes to Salidar to save Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve.

 

Why on earth does Mat put up with the rude behaviour from these women??  They all need to be slapped, they are so rude.  Why do they feel that it's okay for them to be rude to Mat but not the other way around - and I think he's awful darned polite considering.

 

And why does Egwene think she needs to get Mat away from the Band?  She says that at some point but never explains why.

 

And why does Elayne believe that she should take command of the Band's men and that she has every right to do so?  I really like Elayne because she irritates me so much without being badly written or boring (until Crossroads of Twilight and the bath that goes on for 100 pages I seem to recall - haven't gotten there yet).

 

 

Why do Rand, Mat, and sometimes Perrin treat all the women with such annoying chivalry and trying to protect them from danger/gore as if they're delicate petals all the time while this behaviour is not exhibited by any other character except perhaps some of the Shienarans?  All these powerful, independent women who constantly demonstrate how they can take care of themselves and hold their own in multiple situations and have men bow down to them on a regular basis, but for some reason Rand feels women aren't responsible for themselves or can't make important decisions, such as fighting to save the world.  It's irritating!

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why on earth does Mat put up with the rude behaviour from these women??  They all need to be slapped, they are so rude.  Why do they feel that it's okay for them to be rude to Mat but not the other way around - and I think he's awful darned polite considering.

 

Because Mat was never mean spirited, and he is actually very, very secure in himself.  Most overtly hostile responses from men come when they feel threatened in some way, and Mat is uniquely suited not to feel threatened in an Aes Sedai camp.  Even after he gets kicked, his response is no more than irritation.

 

I like Mat.

 

And why does Egwene think she needs to get Mat away from the Band?  She says that at some point but never explains why.

 

She wants to use the Band's presence to drive up recruitment for Gareth Bryne's army.  If she separates Mat from the Band, then she feels she can manipulate Talmanes movements (which she did, long enough to accomplish her purpose).

 

And why does Elayne believe that she should take command of the Band's men and that she has every right to do so?

 

Because Elayne can be really stupid, on occasion.  Of course, she wouldn't think of it that way.

 

Why do Rand, Mat, and sometimes Perrin treat all the women with such annoying chivalry and trying to protect them from danger/gore as if they're delicate petals all the time while this behaviour is not exhibited by any other character except perhaps some of the Shienarans?  All these powerful, independent women who constantly demonstrate how they can take care of themselves and hold their own in multiple situations and have men bow down to them on a regular basis, but for some reason Rand feels women aren't responsible for themselves or can't make important decisions, such as fighting to save the world.  It's irritating!

 

It is irritating to you, and understandably so, in all likelihood because of the values of the society in which you have been raised.  For most of history, the physical differences between men and women have, for better or for worse, placed women in a relatively subservient role with somewhat mixed results; women are still valued because they are integral to reproduction.  For that reason, women (in general, there have certainly been exceptions) have been objectified in one way or another.  Overprotective chivalry is, from a results standpoint, a fairly favorable outcome for women in a less technological society (like Randland).

 

Technology is a great equalizer for the sexes.  It reduces the meaningfulness of the physiological differences between men and women vis a vis survival, and allows social interactions to be based on other characteristics in which men and women are more similar.  Jordan reflects this accurately as well in the society of the Age of Legends.  There is pretty much zero sexism among the Forsaken.

 

The Aiel are actually unusual in this respect.  Ironically, since they descended from pacifists in a technological society, the stigma of being a warrior was originally greater than the low-tech stigma of being female, and so being acceptable as warrior was never an issue for women.  Tradition secured their place as equals in the field, and the Wise Ones' abilities (Channeling and Dreamwalking) assured equality in leadership. 

[tnsabregirl]

 

Why on earth does Mat put up with the rude behaviour from these women??  They all need to be slapped, they are so rude.  Why do they feel that it's okay for them to be rude to Mat but not the other way around - and I think he's awful darned polite considering.

 

Mat puts up with it because, regardless of how irritating there are, his own upbringing predisposes him to protect them, regardless of the circumstances. They are rude to him because, in Nynaeve and Egwene's eyes, they still see him as the young teen they grew up with, adverse to work and prone to mischief - they don't have the insight into his character that we get from his own point-of-view to understand all the ways he is changing. Heck, even in his own point-of-view, it's obvious he doesn't recognize the changes. So why should they? They have no insight into his motives, and simply suspect the worst, based on his previous record. Elayne does it simply because she is the Daugher-Heir and EVERYONE is therefore, likely, inferior (in her own mind). Plus, Nynaeve and Egwene are her friends, so she would tend to accept their opnion of him, without questioning it. In fact, only when confronted with conclusive, contradictory evidence does she revise her opinion of Matt even one whit.

 

And why does Egwene think she needs to get Mat away from the Band?  She says that at some point but never explains why.

 

I think the earlier reply - that she wanted this so she could better manipulate Talmanes for her own ends - is spot on here.

 

And why does Elayne believe that she should take command of the Band's men and that she has every right to do so?

 

Because she is the Daughter-Heir of Andor. And in history, Andoran queens have been known to lead their own armies, although she obviously never has at that point (refer to earlier poster's remark about Elayne's occasional stupidity; every one has blind spots). Having no insight into what's going on in Mat's head, why should she assume a country shepherd with no education in warfare and a self-described desire to do nothing but dance, drink and avoid work, would do better than she might?

 

Why do Rand, Mat, and sometimes Perrin treat all the women with such annoying chivalry and trying to protect them from danger/gore as if they're delicate petals all the time while this behaviour is not exhibited by any other character except perhaps some of the Shienarans?

 

I think a number of us have already responded to this, and if you still disagree, well, you have every right to do so. :) We all have different view points and none of us are omniscient. As a reader you see motivations and thoughts that the protagonists of the story lack. That failure to communicate and work together, even among allies, is the source of many conflicts in the books. In that regard, I think this represents a real slice of life.

 

[CUBAREY]

I said we'd teach you, not be your slaves - keep this up and the bargain is null and void".  But they never do.  It's absolutely ridiculous, and can only be allowed to further some nefarious scheme of Jordan's to make everyone hate the sea folk.

 

The sea folk are simply applying their status rules. For them a foreign teacher is very low status thus they treat the A.S. in a manner consistent with their status. The sea folk because they are a merritime people follow a ridgid higherarchy where orders are meant to be immediately obayed without question, this may seem harsh when applied to A.S. but you must think of the culture the Sea Folk have and nderstand that they are not treating the A.S. with deliberate disrespect but with the respect do to someone in their role.

 

Also, for an A.S. to simply deem the bargain null and void would be rather stupid (as they want to learn about the sea folk) and frankly no one but Egwene or possibly the Sitters would have the authority to break a deal with the Sea Folk.

[Marussan]

The three oaths might come into play as well.

[rhadamanthus]

I said we'd teach you, not be your slaves - keep this up and the bargain is null and void".  But they never do.  It's absolutely ridiculous, and can only be allowed to further some nefarious scheme of Jordan's to make everyone hate the sea folk.

 

The sea folk are simply applying their status rules. For them a foreign teacher is very low status thus they treat the A.S. in a manner consistent with their status. The sea folk because they are a merritime people follow a ridgid higherarchy where orders are meant to be immediately obayed without question, this may seem harsh when applied to A.S. but you must think of the culture the Sea Folk have and nderstand that they are not treating the A.S. with deliberate disrespect but with the respect do to someone in their role.

 

Also, for an A.S. to simply deem the bargain null and void would be rather stupid (as they want to learn about the sea folk) and frankly no one but Egwene or possibly the Sitters would have the authority to break a deal with the Sea Folk.

 

Yet, later on in the same book, cadsuane lays down the law with the sea folk woman bothering her.  I'm not demanding something outrageously extreme, but the idea of Aes Sedai being suddenly so easily bullied is just plain out of character.  The idea of it being a cultural quirk is rather silly - the Aes Sedai almost never show any care about what one culture demands of them over another - they are Aes Sedai and just ignore customs outside their status.

[rhadamanthus]

 

It is irritating to you, and understandably so, in all likelihood because of the values of the society in which you have been raised.  For most of history, the physical differences between men and women have, for better or for worse, placed women in a relatively subservient role with somewhat mixed results; women are still valued because they are integral to reproduction.  For that reason, women (in general, there have certainly been exceptions) have been objectified in one way or another.  Overprotective chivalry is, from a results standpoint, a fairly favorable outcome for women in a less technological society (like Randland).

 

That's precisely my point.  Jordan has created a world where women are most definitely not subserviant.  There are numerous queens, all the aes sedai, and a plethora of cultures that lean matriarchal.  What you're implying is akin to "having your cake and eating it too".  Thus my previous post on this topic - it seems just plain weird that the culture is set up so equalized, but only the women seem to realize it consistently.

 

Certainly, some of it is understandable - I am a man, and I know that men can be (are often) suckers.  Women will always possess an advantage in that regard, and frankly I like that.

 

But it gets applied in too much of an extreme, particularly with Matt and Rand's aversion to killing women, even women who are actively trying to kill them.  The notion of equality should at least be acknowledged from both genders such that a darkfriend is a darkfriend and that's the end of it.

[adverge]

 

I recognise all the pyschobabble stuff about societies and gender interactions.  My point was, however, why do only Mat and Rand and a few Shienarans exhibit the idea that women should be protected at all times and never ever killed, no matter what they do?  I'm all for a contained society that has built up certain mannerisms due to technology/magic but this particular point is completely inconsistent with the rest of the world.  Mat and Rand (especially Rand) do not treat women in a similar manner to the rest of the males, even from their birthplace of the Two Rivers.  The men in the Two Rivers generally treat women, especially the Women's Circle, on an equal or higher status than themselves.  Rand sees women as helpless creatures, unable to decide for themselves, and that have to be constantly protected or sheltered from danger.  Mat does this to some extent but not nearly as bad as Rand.  It's just not in keeping with the rest of the men in the series!

 

The only thing I'd give Rand is perhaps he's got Lews Therin's thoughts on the subject tumbling about in his head and Lews Therin killed his wife.  It's just seeped in perhaps.

 

[rhadamanthus]

Rand sees women as helpless creatures, unable to decide for themselves, and that have to be constantly protected or sheltered from danger. 

 

Minor nitpick:  The above tendency of Rand is due to his feeling (justified) that anyone around him is in danger, simply because of who he is, e.g., all those killed during the assassination attempt in PoD.

 

However, Rand and Matt are weirdly out of character that they will not kill any woman, even one trying to kill them!  That's just plain silly, given how the culture and characters are fleshed out otherwise.  Remorse for maidens dying I can understand, heck - I can understand any of Rand/Matt's dislike about seeing people, especially women, suffer for him - but darkfriends?  That quirk is just oddly out of place.  Everyone else seems to acknowledge a certain amount of "responsibility for one's own actions" except Rand and Matt when it pertains to women.  Caveat:  I'm not upset about it because of some vindictive animosity towards the bad women in the book, but rather because it's a nasty hole in an otherwise awesomely fleshed out culture with a strong female presence and a penchant for unapologetic equality.