LTT mental faculties

[sillyman]

To what extent has/does LTT maintain his mental faculties?  The fact he was around long enough to kill himself and the rest of his family suggests that despite being raving mad he was still a brilliant thinker and tactician.

 

Following this will Rand be able to rely on LTT for "technical support" at TG?

[RAND AL THOR]

The fact he was around long enough to kill himself and the rest of his family suggests that despite being raving mad he was still a brilliant thinker and tactician.

 

How?

 

He was strong in the Power, and went around destroying everything, including his family. How does that suggest that he was a brilliant thinker?

[42Bonzo88]

   In my opinion, even a madman can be a genius at times. Look at some people through history that couldn't put on matching socks and yet were perfectly brilliant in thier niche (Einstein for instance). Also, I think there is a part in one of the later books where LTT and Rand make a deal that as long as LTT dies he will help Rand. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read something like that.

 

RAND AL THOR Ishmael gave him part of his sanity back when he 'healed' him enough for LTT to realize what he had done and he took it to get away to Dragonmount.

[a pale tanned lover]

LTT is always welcome to come out with the lads, in fact to go with any of the girls he would have to be crazy, aye

 

[mb]

I think Rand would be able to rely at least on Lews Therin's  memories; and maybe also on the channeling techniques Lews Therin has taught him.

 

[Roxinos]

To what extent has/does LTT maintain his mental faculties?  The fact he was around long enough to kill himself and the rest of his family suggests that despite being raving mad he was still a brilliant thinker and tactician.

 

Following this will Rand be able to rely on LTT for "technical support" at TG?

 

He may have been a brilliant thinker, but your "evidence" is not evidence towards that. He, after all, thought of how to patch the Bore and led the Hundred Companions in their campaign against the Shadow directly to Shayol Ghul, and he succeeded. That's evidence towards his brilliance. He was also an Aes Sedai, and a well-respected one. That's more evidence towards his brains. The arguably greatest thinker of the Age of Legends, Demandred prides himself in being the greatest tactician in his time. Though, he is one step behind Lews Therin, always has been and it is what drove him to the Shadow. That's evidence of Lews Therin's capabilities as a tactician.

 

As for whether Lews Therin would be available for Rand's use at the Last Battle? It is possible. But we do not know what brings Lews Therin out, and we do not know what has shut him away. He has vanished for long periods of time in the past with little to show for why, so it's not inconceivable that he would vanish for the Last Battle for little reason.

 

The chances are much greater that Mat will serve as Rand's general and lead the Light's forces in the Last Battle. He is, after all, the combination of the greatest fighters' and generals' minds in one package.

[a pale tanned lover]

i must agree with you on that point, anyone with a that many memories would be the best general, but surely the DO seems sane compared to Rand?

[Roxinos]

but surely the DO seems sane compared to Rand?

 

Which has nothing to do with this discussion. Move along.

[a pale tanned lover]

i was actually agreeing with your point with regards to mat, but i will jog on :)

[a pale tanned lover]

it would be wrong to let personnel opinions ruin what is being said, and whilst i bow in a way to what you say, i am excited to be in this group talking about the WOT so please indulge me

[Jambo]

but surely the DO seems sane compared to Rand?

 

Which has nothing to do with this discussion. Move along.

 

No need to be rude....

Anyway, I agree with some of what was said above, he didn't need to be a genius to kill everyone, he was just very strong in the power and could nuke 'em. I think there's actually a good quote that deals with madness vs genius. I forget which book it's in but Bashere tells Rand about a general he once had who was as mad as a hatter but was brillient when it came to stratigizing. Considering this you have to assume LT probably has some good knowledge stored away that could be important.

[a pale tanned lover]

i think this is book 5/6 when bashere says that, most people will follow a crazy person if it gets to where the pub is(thats a personnel thing)

 

yeah he is rude and obnixous and a tit, did i spell tit right?

[a pale tanned lover]

and rand really has to kill the ltt in his head, its not good karma for him

[Luckers]

He, after all, thought of how to patch the Bore and led the Hundred Companions in their campaign against the Shadow directly to Shayol Ghul, and he succeeded. That's evidence towards his brilliance

 

Well, we don't know that he thought up that plan. Far more likely was that it was a researcher in his team--he was the First Amongst Servants, after all--not a theoreticall one power reasearcher.

 

I agree with the rest though, there are fair better evidence of LTT's brilliance than his abilities there at the end--and lets not forget that Ishamael restored his sanity before he actually killed himself.

 

Which has nothing to do with this discussion. Move along.

 

It's not your role to tell people what to discuss Roxinos--certainly not in that tone. PM Maj when you have a problem, and if its not enough to PM him about, don't say anything.

 

yeah he is rude and obnixous and a tit, did i spell tit right?

 

Second warning. Get another and this goes upstairs.

 

Now, you've both been publically chastised. Lets all play nice shall we?

[sillyman]

He may have been a brilliant thinker, but your "evidence" is not evidence towards that.

 

Just clarifying: LTT evaded capture while destroying the world. It seems to me that capturing/severing/binding a mad channeler of his power would be the number one priority for AS at the time hence evading them would be quite a feet.

[Luckers]

He did his damage before reports of what had happened at the sealing even reached the authorities. He went nuts straight away, killed his family, Ishamael arrived and cured him, and then he killed himselv.

[triadruid]

He did his damage before reports of what had happened at the sealing even reached the authorities.

Where's the source on this timeline? The EOTW Prologue intimates that days, at least, have passed since the sealing, enough for Ishamael to say that the Hundred Companions are gaining "another hundred every day". That sounds to me like knowledge of the counterstroke and the failure at the Bore would already be spreading, but that's also speculation. Where's yours come from, an interview?

[Roxinos]

Where's the source on this timeline? The EOTW Prologue intimates that days, at least, have passed since the sealing, enough for Ishamael to say that the Hundred Companions are gaining "another hundred every day". That sounds to me like knowledge of the counterstroke and the failure at the Bore would already be spreading, but that's also speculation. Where's yours come from, an interview?

 

http://www.lobring.com/books/shayol.html

 

A short novella written by RJ written in the perspective of a historian researching the Breaking and such. It explains the entire timeline from the drilling of the Bore to the end of the Breaking.

 

Well, we don't know that he thought up that plan. Far more likely was that it was a researcher in his team--he was the First Amongst Servants, after all--not a theoreticall one power reasearcher.

 

Taken from the "Strike at Shayol Ghul" novella:

 

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

 

I agree with the rest though, there are fair better evidence of LTT's brilliance than his abilities there at the end--and lets not forget that Ishamael restored his sanity before he actually killed himself.

 

Temporary sanity. It faded by the time he died. Well, so has been told to me after asking the question several times.

[triadruid]

I've read the Strike, but I don't see any specifics about the timeline of Counterstroke>Kinslaying>Prologue. If I'm missing it, please point it out, but the best it lists is again "days".

[Roxinos]

You read it, then you saw it. The three sentences right after another tell you the timeline that Luckers used to say that Lews Therin did his deed before anyone knew about the ramifications of the Sealing.

 

Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant.

 

Shortly thereafter, their insanity led them to being killing and destroying. Lews Therin was most famous for killing everyone who had a drop of blood of his in their veins.

 

Within days they were leaving trails of death and destruction in their paths. By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad, and what remained of civilization after the war itself had fallen into chaos.

 

There was no one of the army Lews Therin took with him who survived to tell the tale.

 

Exactly what occured that day can never be known, only the results. Of the soldiers, not a single man or woman returned to give any account.

 

So the only way they were to find out what happened at the Sealing was through the effects. Mainly, the effects of the taint and the subsequent insanity.

 

He did his damage before reports of what had happened at the sealing even reached the authorities.

 

So that is true.

[Ashaman Kovan]

 

 

Taken from the "Strike at Shayol Ghul" novella:

 

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

 

Well just because LTT was the one to "Propose" the plan doesn't mean it was his idea initially. He was just the highest ranking male AS and so had the best chance of having the plan approved by the proper officials and authorities and what not.

[Roxinos]

I think you're looking too deep into the word "propose" to support your belief.

[Luckers]

triadruid, Roxinos got most of it, but in addition we also know that communication was lost with Lews Therin before the attack got underway.

 

Temporary sanity. It faded by the time he died. Well, so has been told to me after asking the question several times.

 

There is no indication that it faded before he died. He was griefstricken, which directly implies that he retained his link to reality. Insane, he'd had a complete psychotic break, and wasn't remotely aware of the real world. We note no major break in his cognetive progression--his reactions were sane and resonable to a man in his position.

 

If someone indicated otherwise, i'd be interested to have a discussion with them.

 

I think you're looking too deep into the word "propose" to support your belief.

 

On this i agree with Kovan. Lews Therin was a politician. A brilliant man, yes--and an exceptional general. But he was no expert researcher for the One Power. He proposed the plan, but i doubt he came up with it. By the same stroke i doubt Latra Posae came up with the Choedan Kal.

[Roxinos]

On this i agree with Kovan. Lews Therin was a politician. A brilliant man, yes--and an exceptional general. But he was no expert researcher for the One Power. He proposed the plan, but i doubt he came up with it. By the same stroke i doubt Latra Posae came up with the Choedan Kal.

 

Difference of opinion, I guess. No way to prove it one way or the other. *laughs* I hate it when that happens.

 

If someone indicated otherwise, i'd be interested to have a discussion with them.

 

I just went through about 2000 of my posts. I couldn't find it. *sigh* I'm sorry. I can't recall where and when I had asked the question. I've been on Dragonmount a long time.

[triadruid]

Man, you folks have a problem with differentiating inference from stated fact.

 

The SASG story as written only says what happened the day of the Strike; it's completely silent on the Kinslaying and LTT's immolation, which is reserved for the EOTW Prologue. It can be inferred that the latter happened within days or even perhaps hours of the Counterstroke, but that's not certain. It does state outright that "within days" they were causing destruction and additional male AS were going mad, but not when LTT destroyed his home and loved ones. That's all I'm saying; that it's impossible to give an exact timeline as to when the Kinslaying happened.

 

triadruid, Roxinos got most of it, but in addition we also know that communication was lost with Lews Therin before the attack got underway.

Irrelevant, because we're not talking about what happened at SG, but what happened at LTT's home. I'm not arguing that what exactly went down at SG was unknown; I'm saying that the exact timeline of Kinslaying v. Knowledge of Taint is inherently unknowable. Ishamael's words imply that it has been "days" since the Strike, and TSASG only says it took time for the taint to be discovered, not the madness. Unless you have a quote from RJ saying LTT gated directly home to kiss his wife goodbye, we're bandying opinion, and I just want the other side to acknowledge that as well.