How long did the Age of Legends exist?

[Vassili]

No there isn't exactly, but what else could have made them? And they function like Ter'Agreal. Other than their age, we have no reason to think they arent made with the OP.

[Tyrell]

Ages come and go.  Who wins the Fisher game (Creator or Dark One) is only relevent for THAT age.  When the next Age comes, both players have the opportunity to win.  If the Dark One never one, it wouldn't be much of a game.  Kind of like if nobody ever scored a goal against the United soccer/football team...why bother playing.  I believe Ishy was telling the truth about the Dragon bowing to the Dark One in some of the previous turnings of the Wheel.  The only way the Dark One could be the final victor is if he were the main dude when the Wheel stopped turning.  Otherwise, come the next Age the game would be reset.  That is what I understood to be his reason for wanting the Eye of the World...for some reason, he felt he needed it to take control and then stop the Wheel.  Since Saidin and Sadair drive the Wheel, he must have had some way in mind of eliminating them for good.  No.  I don't have one single bit of proof to show that any of this is true.  Just my twisted way of interpreting what I've read.  Kinda like everyone who reads the Bible understands it differently.

 

The Dark One wants to destroy the universe. If he wins then he wins for all time, on the other hand a victory for the light only resets the game for another day which is why it is worth his playing the game.

[Majsju]

On an entirely separate note, how can you harmonize a cyclical WoT with the linear time we are familiar with? Maybe the 7th Age was so long ago we can't remember it. However, I think billions of years of fossil and cosmological evidence say no, unless the 7th Age was before the Big Bang. I doubt the First Age would be 12 billion years if the 3rd is only 3k (though who knows?) The only idea I think works is that our 1st Age is THE First Age. The Creator is actively creating the WoT as we speak.

 

Take a point in history after the actual creation, and fix time in a loop there. For example, when mankind hjas evolved so far from apes that we are talking about a separate species. Say that this marks the start of the Seventh Age, once the Wheel has turned almost a full cycle, and are close to the end of the Sixth Age, a war or global disaster completely wipes out mankind. Then the Seventh Age comes again, apes evolves into humans, and history runs its course.

To just give an example how it could be done.

 

Of course, to fit dinousaurs, fossils etc in the picture, these events that takes place before time is fixed in a loop would somehow need to exist outside time, so that they can be discovered over and over again, with an appropriate age to them.

 

Speculation is fun ;D

[a pale tanned lover]

Don't know if i'm missing the point on this topic, but since a wheel goes round and round then we could take the ages as being like a clock, one goes too two, two too three etc etc, now if the last age was too be the last age before the first age then we have to assume this is the age that the DO wins, destroys all life, then too start the first age the Creator comes backs stuffs him in a prison because he won't destroy him since he knows the need for balance, creates everything again and say"Welcome to the first age, mind your head on the way in, watch out for the later ages people cause like time it gets darker then, enjoy :D"

[Luckers]

Umm, no we don't have to assume any of that.

 

I don't see the problem with the first age spanning billions of years. To assume the human lifespan and specific experience of time to be in some way specific (and limiting) seems arrogant. Why shouldn't one age last billions of years, and another only thousands? What do such things mean to the creator or the wheel--both of whom exist as seemingly eternal beings?

 

Effectively, if you live forever, than what worth has time? What differentiates an instant to you, from a millenia... in terms of significances. Both are merely experiences in an unending line of the same.

[Swigaro]

Don't know if i'm missing the point on this topic, but since a wheel goes round and round then we could take the ages as being like a clock, one goes too two, two too three etc etc, now if the last age was too be the last age before the first age then we have to assume this is the age that the DO wins, destroys all life, then too start the first age the Creator comes backs stuffs him in a prison because he won't destroy him since he knows the need for balance, creates everything again and say"Welcome to the first age, mind your head on the way in, watch out for the later ages people cause like time it gets darker then, enjoy :D"

 

I think we can be fairly certain that the DO has never won.  His goal is to destroy the Wheel of Time, a goal stated numerous times in the books.  If the DO were to win, ever, The Wheel is gone; goodbye ages coming and going, hello linear time.  The Creator dosen't interfear.  It is for the Dragon to defeat the DO, if he can't do it, tough luck.  The Creator can always try again somewhere else. I confess that I have no idea how this story is going to end, but, IMO we are not going to see the Creator coming down and saving the day. 

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote from: a pale tanned lover on Today at 04:26:18 AM

Don't know if i'm missing the point on this topic, but since a wheel goes round and round then we could take the ages as being like a clock, one goes too two, two too three etc etc, now if the last age was too be the last age before the first age then we have to assume this is the age that the DO wins, destroys all life, then too start the first age the Creator comes backs stuffs him in a prison because he won't destroy him since he knows the need for balance, creates everything again and say"Welcome to the first age, mind your head on the way in, watch out for the later ages people cause like time it gets darker then, enjoy Cheesy"

 

I think we can be fairly certain that the DO has never won.  His goal is to destroy the Wheel of Time, a goal stated numerous times in the books.  If the DO were to win, ever, The Wheel is gone; goodbye ages coming and going, hello linear time.  The Creator dosen't interfear.  It is for the Dragon to defeat the DO, if he can't do it, tough luck.  The Creator can always try again somewhere else. I confess that I have no idea how this story is going to end, but, IMO we are not going to see the Creator coming down and saving the day.

 

I must confess this is purley my speculation, it was mentioned as well that the Dragon has been defeated in ages past in EOTW. How can we be certain the DO has never won. True the Creator won't interfer, but when there is nothing left then he would start again in my humble view

[Swigaro]

I remember a quote from RJ.  When asked about Ishamael's comment about The Dragon turning in past ages, he said something along the lines of, "And you believe Ishamael?" 

 

As far as the Creator deciding to interfere once there is nothing left, why?  If he wouldn't act to save his creation, why would he rebuild it all once it was destroyed?  The Creator is not a diety like the Judeo-Christian benevolant God.  I sort of think of him like a Johnny Appleseed sort of character, plantng trees all over the country.  If he hears that a tree he planted 20 years ago on the other side of the continent is about to be cut down, is he going to run accross the country to save it?  No, he may heave a sigh of regret, but he will just plant a new tree somewhere else.  He won't go back and recreate that one tree exactly as it was.  Besides, by destroying the wheel and remaking the world in his image, the DO may well cut the Creator out of the equasion.  If the DO wins, the Wheel will stop turning.  There will be no more Dragon or Heros of the Horn spun out to save the day.  Everything in the books, thus far has been very clear on the nature of the Creator.  He does not interfear, no matter what.  If the Creator were to suddenly do a 180 and decide to interfere, it would be like Lan deciding to give up his battle against the shadow, or Rand, suddenly deciding to run from Tarmon Gaidon. 

 

[Luckers]

His full comment, I believe, was "And you believed Ishamael? He's a lying liar that lies."

[GrandpaG]

So.  "How long did the Age of Legends exist?"...we don't know, right?

 

 

Sounds like the best SWAG would be from the discovery of channeling through the Breaking, eh?  However long that was.

 

And during that period the Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai came into existence and rose to their peak of power and influence.  They somehow connected with the Ogier and created the Nym to grow sung food so the general population could live to be 200.

 

My gut tells me that it would take many thousands of years to accomplish all that they did (learning curve).

 

Thanks to everyone for the insightful posts.  :)

[Luckers]

And during that period the Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai came into existence and rose to their peak of power and influence.

 

Da'shain Aiel. The name Jenn Aiel was coined during the breaking, referring to those that held to the First Covenant.

 

They somehow connected with the Ogier and created the Nym to grow sung food so the general population could live to be 200.

 

My gut tells me that it would take many thousands of years to accomplish all that they did (learning curve).

 

Maybe. Consider that the modern world was forged in less than 300 years. Progress can happen quite fast.

 

 

[Mik]

They somehow connected with the Ogier and created the Nym to grow sung food so the general population could live to be 200.

 

My gut tells me that it would take many thousands of years to accomplish all that they did (learning curve).

 

Maybe. Consider that the modern world was forged in less than 300 years. Progress can happen quite fast.

You're right about the fact that progress can happen fast. Progress breeds more progress.

 

Still, there's this quote to consider;

In this time there were no wars – even the word for war was lost, known only to scholars- and all manners of wonders were commonplace.

(TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 3 – The Age of Legends)

I think this quote alone shows that the lenght of this Age must be in the thousands of years.

 

As you once said yourself, there must have been millions of channelers around in the Age of Legends.

And the high-end range of the lifespan of this group is somwehere around 700 years. Let's be modest and average that at 500 years. If we're modest again, that'd be 2 to 3 generations for every thousand years that pass.

 

So even if the fundament for the AoL was 'formed' in -say- those 300 years (wich I think is being very very optimistic, but plausible), how long would it take for a society like that to let go of teaching children about the wars in their history..

How many generations of channelers does it take for a society where "all manners of wonders are commonplace" to not only to forget the concept of war, but even the very word used to describe the concept for it?..

Bear in mind that communication-devices & travelling all around the world were common, yet this whole society existed for so long, that 'it' (civilisation as a whole) forgot a concept so foreign to them that even the word to describe it was lost to time.

 

I think that ten-thousand years is a low figure.

[Luckers]

I wasn't saying that I believe that the Age of Legends lasted only three hundred years, i was pointing out that advancement and change does not require thousands of years to occur--that it would not require thousands of years to do what they did.

 

The social hierarchy to my mind does require some time to have formed--the reduction of the multitude of languages and cultures into a single base requires at least several generations to have become solid--more, given the lifespan of channelers. The strong inference of service to the culture to my min requires at least five or six generations of harsh struggle--and that that inference got so strong that it literally prevented wars then i wouldn't be surprised if that was extended to ten or twelve.

 

So, my prediction is at least 800 years of hardship following the end of our age, and perhaps as much as 1,200. After which at least another 1,000 years passed before the drilling of the bore.

 

Lower limit, i'd say 2,000 years. It could be as dramatic as ten, but that requires millenia of no social evolution, and to my mind the Age of Legends was a relatively progressive and inventive age. The mindset simply doesn't fit.

[Werthead]

There is something major a lot of people are forgetting:

 

1) The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Age out of the lives of people. It can't do that if there are no people around. Hence, the WoT doesn't run from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch, but from some indeterminate time when conciousness arose to the extinction of sentient life (since we'll assume, given the existence of the Ogier, that humans aren't the only lifeform in the WoTverse).

 

2) RJ was asked about this once and he confirmed that in the WoTverse, the Sun will never go out and the Big Bang never happened, as time just cycles back and forth along with the existence of sentient life.

 

This causes immense confusion, because obviously the Big Bang did happen and the universe did exist for 13 billion-odd years before sentient human life arose, so how is it possible to square that with the WoT only existed based around human existence? There are some quantum theories that tie in with this but it's a bit involved. Luckily, in WoT's case we can just point at the Creator and say, "Talk to the boss," ;)

 

Is there something in the books that I'm missing which necessitates the Portal Stones having been a creation through the One Power?

 

They aren't purely mechanical devices, since if they were they would no longer operate after many thousands of years. They're obviously prone to weathering effects, which suggests they were very early creations with the OP, before the technique was perfected and later OP devices were almost indestructible. Or, as someone else suggested, the Portal Stones in the WoT world are only reflections of the originals, which were created in the Portal Stone world Team Rand visited (and were 100% undamaged there), and hence prone to damage.

 

As for the Dark One/Creator debate, I ponder if in one of the Ages the Shadow can win, and the Creator is imprisoned (since it is likely neither the Dark One nor the Creator can destroy one another). And then, in the age of darkness and chaos that follows, someone bores a hole through the Creator's prison, and allows him to break free, and the Dark One-run Wheel of Time spins out the Betrayer of Hope to lead the dominant forces of darkness against the Light?

 

This would fit in with the duality aspect of the series quite well.

[Werthead]

In TFoH there's a moment when Rand recalls that the Da'shain Aiel followed the Way of the Leaf for 'countless generations'. In that moment he seems to be himself, without Lews Therin's thoughts flooding his mind, so we can assume he's referring to the Third Age definition of generation, not the AoL one. 'Countless' of course means he doesn't know, not literally such a huge number it cannot be counted, but it would definitely appear to be more than a few centuries. Several millennia is definitely suggested by that reference.