Moiraine and Elayne- Rand's Tears and Laughter

[Taishar Manetheren]

I dont see that heppening. Not only that he is a kid and he cant really contribute to the mission, but Noal already asked to come and who knows what knowledge he has from his journy around the world about the finns.

 

What could Olver do? scare them with his ugly face? tell their woman that they have pretty eyes?

[Asajin]

Olver has already come into play' date=' by telling Mat and the others about what he learned from Birgitte. It is quite possible Olver also will be crucial to solving the clues the game gives, ie to win you must cheat.

 

But having a little boy tag along on such dangerous mission? No freaking way.[/quote']

 

True..but I still think that Noal will die and Olver has a reater role to play, if not being the third person

[n00l3y]

Well, we know that Olver isn't that ugly hero (Gaiden Cain was it?), so he probably won't end up fighting. He is young, so his knowledge would be far more limited than Noal's. However, he must have a purpose to play in this story, besides page-wasting on how rude he is to women/how nice they are to him. And I cannot forsee him doing much in TG or whatever happens in aMoL, and RJ might want to show more of a kid in WoT, as most of the characters are adults, so my guess is that he'll follow.

 

Now, as for Noal, he too must have a purpose to play, cause so far, he hasn't really done much. Saved Mat from the gholam once, helped Mat for a number of stuff, but so far he has been rather insignifant. Same thing goes to Bawler with Perrin. So, this is where I'm stumped. What purpose does an old, former-adventurer have in the book? If you have any idea pls tell me, cause I'm completely stuck. :(

[Asajin]

Well' date=' we know that Olver isn't that ugly hero (Gaiden Cain was it?), so he probably won't end up fighting. He is young, so his knowledge would be far more limited than Noal's. However, he must have a purpose to play in this story, besides page-wasting on how rude he is to women/how nice they are to him. And I cannot forsee him doing much in TG or whatever happens in aMoL, and RJ might want to show more of a kid in WoT, as most of the characters are adults, so my guess is that he'll follow.

 

Now, as for Noal, he too must have a purpose to play, cause so far, he hasn't really done much. Saved Mat from the gholam once, helped Mat for a number of stuff, but so far he has been rather insignifant. Same thing goes to Bawler with Perrin. So, this is where I'm stumped. What purpose does an old, former-adventurer have in the book? If you have any idea pls tell me, cause I'm completely stuck. :([/quote']

 

Well him being Jain Farstrider( it's kinda obvious), he might have a role to play in the sense that he might be the key to reveal the truth on the Tower of Ghenjei and Shara(wishful thinking!). But I think he deserves a heroic death, as he seems quite tormented. On a side note, there are hints that Jain Farstrider might have been consumed by the Dark One when he travelled into the Blight or Compelled. Oh and it's Gaidal Cain.

[Luckers]

Olver is not Gaidal Cain. RJ has stated this several times.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

 

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

 

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

[Asajin]

Olver is not Gaidal Cain. RJ has stated this several times.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring' date=' though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

 

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

 

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

[/quote']

 

No, I was giving n00l3y the name of the hero he had forgotten. Oh and interestingly has anyone notices that Rj said he had a greater reason for being there.

[Luckers]

Oh right, for some reason i read n00l3y comment as saying 'we DON'T know olver is that ugly hero'.

 

My bad.

[Mat is the Boss]

I agree that Mat, Thom and Noal will save Moiraine. Olver might help them realize how to beat the Finns (music, fire, iron) but I don`t think Mat will allow him to enter Finnland.

 

My best guess is that Olver will be left behind - in Caemlyn!!

 

That`s right, I think Mat will go to the Royal Palace, before entering the Tower of Ghenhei.

I`ve got two reasons to believe this is going to happen.

 

1. Mat will want to ask Birgitte what she knows about the Finns, the Finnland and the Tower of Ghenhei.

 

2. It`s faster to follow the road to Caemlyn, and have Elayne make a gateway to the Tower of Ghenhei, rather than going straight to Whitebridge, and follow the river north.

 

Any objections?

[RobertAlexWillis]

It`s faster to follow the road to Caemlyn, and have Elayne make a gateway to the Tower of Ghenhei, rather than going straight to Whitebridge, and follow the river north.

 

That, my friend, is an excellent point. The only possible objection I have is that Perrin and the Asha'man with him are even closer ... admittedly, Mat doesn't know about him, and vice versa, but ta'veren have a way of making convenient things happen.

 

That said, your scenario is entirely plausible.

[n00l3y]

I agree in the possibility of the fisrt point, but I doubt that Mat will approach Elayne, nor would she be willing to create a gateway for them. Sure, Elayne understands the importance of rescuing Moirane, but, Elayne being Elayne, she would avoid it if possible.

 

Mat : Hey, Elayne, mind creating a gateway to the tower of Ghenjei for us, we need to rescue Moirane.

Elayne : No way, I have more important things to do than help rescue Moirane, like choosing what clothes to wear.

Mat : Err...

Elayne : Besides, you men always mess things up. Just leave these things to us women. *sniffs*

 

Possibility of such a conversation?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree in the possibility of the fisrt point, but I doubt that Mat will approach Elayne, nor would she be willing to create a gateway for them. Sure, Elayne understands the importance of rescuing Moirane, but, Elayne being Elayne, she would avoid it if possible.

 

Mat : Hey, Elayne, mind creating a gateway to the tower of Ghenjei for us, we need to rescue Moirane.

Elayne : No way, I have more important things to do than help rescue Moirane, like choosing what clothes to wear.

Mat : Err...

Elayne : Besides, you men always mess things up. Just leave these things to us women. *sniffs*

 

Possibility of such a conversation?

 

 

Lol ... Mat would just have Thom ask for him. Elayne would give in for a couple of mustache tugs.

[Mat is the Boss]

I doubt Elayne will refuse to grant Mat a favor after all the times he has saved her life.

 

But perhaps Robert is right, and Mat and Perrin will meet. The problem with this scenario is that Mat is in the northeast corner of Altara moving towards Lugard, while Perrin is in the northwest moving towards Ghealdan. It will be a MAJOR coincidence for them to meet, but thats what Ta`veren is for right? Perhaps the Ta`veren telephathy will make this happen? I like the idea!

[Ilyena]

I highly doubt Mat will tell anyone that Moiraine is still alive. I mean, wasn't the whole secracy thing like that for a reason? plus, imagine, if you would, that their's a seige at the white tower ( mention in an older thread, seemed plausible) with egwene inside. Rand and everyone else, but mat, thom moiraine, noal, and lan since he's in the blight. How sweet would it be if all of a sudden in the middle of planning, (where everything seems hopeless) If the missing people were to stroll in with Moir in the lead, and confront Rand.

I think i would laugh 9and cry with glee!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I mean, wasn't the whole secracy thing like that for a reason?

 

Thom was supposed to keep the letter secret from Mat because if they attempted the rescue too early it would fail, from what Moiraine saw. I doubt that Mat will trumpet the news about the countryside, but there is not reason to keep it secret from Elayne, Perrin, or the other friends. Maybe from Rand, because who knows how he might flip out, but if the others could get Mat to the Tower of Ghenjei quicker, there's no reason to not tell them now.

[liatildina]

If Mat does go to Birgitte and ask for information, and Olver is to young and challenged by beauty to go, perhaps Birgitte would be the third to rescue Moiraine. Who wouldn't want Birgitte with them in a crazy situation like that?

[Guest Majsju]

If Mat does go to Birgitte and ask for information, and Olver is to young and challenged by beauty to go, perhaps Birgitte would be the third to rescue Moiraine. Who wouldn't want Birgitte with them in a crazy situation like that?

 

Only way Birgitte would go is if Elayne went, and that's impossible, since it would make them four people.

 

Birgitte is taking her responsibility as Warder extremely serious, and would definitly not run off adventuring.

 

She might be able to provide mat with some information, but since her meories have been disappearing rapidly, the risk is that Olver now knows more than Birgitte.

 

Heading straight to Caemlyn is still a good idea though. They would be able to get a channeler joining them for the journey to and from the tower, and traveling by gateway seems like a far more convenient way than bumping up and down on a horse for weeks.

[n00l3y]

Besides, I thought the third person had to be a man. At least Olver counts as a male specimen, but Birgitte being the third person is just wrong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

According to Moiraine's letter, that is the case:

 

"It may also be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me."

 

(Knife of Dreams, chapter 10 A Village in Shiota, p.260, emphasis added)

 

So, Moiraine saw this third person in enough detail to know that this person is a man, and that she did not know him.

 

Olver? Boy, not man, and if it had been a male as young as he is that Moiraine saw, it would have been worthy of mention in the letter.

 

Birgitte? Female.

 

Noal? Male. Unknown to Moiraine. Handy in a pinch. Already asked to go and has been included.

 

Case closed. Sometimes a horse is just a horse people.

[akuhn]

here's a little thought i had, but i really think moiraine is a dark friend and when she does come back into play, she will be a great hindrench to rand. just completely unexpected and the plan from the begining. let the lord of chaos rule

[Zardi]

What makes you think that? We've had many points of view from Moiraine, and there is no way she's a darkfriend.

[Asajin]

here's a little thought i had' date=' but i really think moiraine is a dark friend and when she does come back into play, she will be a great hindrench to rand. just completely unexpected and the plan from the begining. let the lord of chaos rule[/quote']

 

I doubt that. This is mainly cause it would ruin all the character developement RJ has made Moiraine go through i.e. having to dance to Rand's tune and not vice versa. Also, it would really screw Rand up as he has always considered her death to be his fault, and when he finds out she's alive but evil, who knows how he will react.

[n00l3y]

I really doubt that Moirane's a darkfriend. I mean, she has been helping the light even before tEotW, and she has been avoiding, killing and tricking shadowspawn and darkfriends. The very fact that she sacrificed her life (or at least some of it) to kill Lanfear shows that she is far from a friend of the forsaken.

 

If you are really keen on turning Moirane into an evil character, much more likely is a force turning, with 13 black ajah members and 13 myrrdrall (sp?) turning her evil. Even then, I find this highly unlikely.

[Luckers]

Moiraine is not Black Ajah. Read her POV's, read New Spring. She is as light oriented as they come.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe she is a Darkfriend, who is under Compulsion to act and think like someone Light-oriented until she hears the secret word:

 

Rosebud

 

Seriously, that makes as much sense as half of the other Moiraine theories ....

[Blue]

Sry if this has already been said but MOIRAINE IS NOT A DARKFRIEND in tEotW on p181 she says "Whatever the Dark One wants i oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you I will destroy you myself." We have seen throughout the books that Moiraine is still bound by the oaths. I think this clears the matter up. I apologise if there is any gaping holes in the above. Interested in how you think she is a darkfriend though. :?