Moiraine and Elayne- Rand's Tears and Laughter

[Asajin]

Ok this theory of mine has a lot of loopholes so I was hoping u guys could help me out with it. Ok as we all know Cadsuane and one of the Wise Ones(Amys i think) wants to teach Rand laughter and tears again. Now if we think back the last time Rand cried was Moiraine's death. The last time Rand laughed was when he saw Min again in Cairhien. And we know that Moiraine is gonna come back in the last book(hopefullly). So if Cadsuane and Amys were to somehow meet Moiraine before Rand and make an entrance together with Elayne in Arad Doman when Rand is gonna do something particularly cold-hearted, maybe he will cry tears of joy when he sees Moiraine and laugh when he finds out hes gonna be a father. It would make sese as Rand loves Elayne as much as he loves Min. This was a random thought while i was bathing and thus will have many loopholes so try not to shoot my precious idea down b ut improve it....

 

PS:My first post!!!

[Kadere]

This sounds good, but I have to throught in a 'but.' According to Min's viewing Caudsuane is going to teach Rand and the rest of the Asha'men this little leason (and I don't think the Asha'men would care about Moriaine or Elayne) PLUS neither Rand nor the Asha'men are going to like it. And I really think Rand would like to see Moriaine not be dead. So unless the viewing wasn't about THAT, it doesn't quite work.

[Mashiara]

The Wise One that Cadsuane makes the agreement with is Sorilea. (280 PoD) I like the idea, but I doubt that cadsuane teaching rand to laugh and cry will be at all pleasant for him.

[weeping anchor]

Rand has used Moraine's sacrifice/death above all else to forge his soul in tongues of flame until he is hard (not strong) and as cold as winter's heart. He laughs only in bitterness now, and has only Min around him to see him as a person. Everyone else has been used and sent away.

 

Known future events -

Perrin needs to be there one more time for Rand. Matt will save Moraine

Min will see Moraine

These events are foretold. Min is with Rand, so Rand will see Moraine for sure at some point, which lifts a load off. He will see Matt at some point, and Perrin at some point in the last book. This will be very good at making Rand more "human" again, rather than such a bitter/lifeless/dour character. He is forgetting why the fight is worthwhile. RJ started that process of Rand de-humanising himself and everyone else in Book 3. Having his friends back around him will be very big in changing his views...how long since he remembered the shepherd?

 

I mean, can you image Matt's face when he works out Rand has slept with 3 women, AND THEY ARE ALL HAPPY ABOUT THIS!!! Bloody buttered onions indeed.

 

Laughter and tears - pointless activities if you are just a weapon. They need to understand that they are people too. How will Cadsuane achieve this? They know how to fight...if a victory as dark as defeat is to be avoided, they need to remember WHY they are fighting. Love/family/children/future. Mix in humour and high emotions. It's obvious...we're talking about a party where Cadsuane brings the biggest doobie ever, and everyone starts bawling "I really really love you, you know that don't you..."

[ono-neko]

Correct me if I am wrong:

 

1) Min's viewing says that Cadsuane will teach Rand and Asha'man SOMETHING, which she doesn't know what it is.

 

2) Cadsuane and Sorilea agreed to teach tears and laughter to Rand.

 

So, as far as I can tell, Min's viewing didn't specifically say Cadsuane WILL teach Rand+Asha'man tears and laughter, just SOMETHING that they won't like.

 

If I may speculate, I would say that Rand will learn "tears and laughter" from someone else. However, Cadsuane will definitely teach Rand+Asha'man something else, maybe humility? But I will say that that will not be "tears and laughter".

[weeping anchor]

One-neko

 

You are absolutely right - the laughter and tears from Cadsuane is an assumption, as we know she has to teach them something they need, but they won't like learning it, especially from her.

 

She has stated her goal to be L & T with Rand, whether it was truthful as her only/main objective is another argument.

 

He is making himself vulnerable. That needs fixing, and I think the Moraine/cadsuane/solrilea dynamic is part of that.

[Guest Majsju]

I hope that the thing Cadsuane has to teach Rand and the Asha'man has something to do with her stay in the Black Hills, I really want to hear more about that.

[Asajin]

This sounds good' date=' but I have to throught in a 'but.' According to Min's viewing Caudsuane is going to teach Rand and the rest of the Asha'men this little leason (and I don't think the Asha'men would care about Moriaine or Elayne) PLUS neither Rand nor the Asha'men are going to like it. And I really think Rand would like to see Moriaine not be dead. So unless the viewing wasn't about THAT, it doesn't quite work.[/quote']

 

those were some of the loopholes i thought of too but i still can't think of how Cadsuane and Sorilea come into the picture(if my theory is correct)

[bcxanth]

Min will see Moraine

 

Although I agree that Rand will see Moir again, your usage of the assumption that Min will see her as supporting evidence is false. The only connection between Min and Moir returning is when she thinks about how she'd had a viewing that Rand can't possibly win without the help of a woman who is dead. This, presumably, and Moir that she's talking about since she thinks about it when meeting Moir's cousin. However, just because she had this viewing, doesn't mean Min has to be there to see it happen. She has viewings all the time about events that she's never there to see.

[Manetherenite]

However' date=' Cadsuane will definitely teach Rand+Asha'man something else, maybe humility? But I will say that that will not be "tears and laughter".[/quote']

 

I really hope she doesn't teach them humility. It would be incredibly ironic considering Cadsuane is one of the least humble, most arrogant people -ever- in the series.

[Luckers]

Which is what makes her great.

 

Moiraines return will doubtlessly impact upon Rand, but i dont think Moiraine has enough of an understanding the nessesary weaknesses human beings need to be the one to teach this to Rand--no Aes Sedai does, except Cadsuane, and to a lesser extent the Wonder Girls who never went through the full indoctrinational program.

 

Aside from which RJ has pretty much beaten us over the head with the fact that Cadsuane is doing this. And finally the one to teach this would need to be strong enough to go comfrotably toe to toe with any of the Asha'men including Rand. Moiraine was not capable of that.

 

Maj- Yes, i too want to learn more of her stay in the Black Hills and the wilder Nora.

[n00l3y]

Nice theory, Asajin, but there are some minor loopholes.

 

Besides those which the others have already pointed out, I think it'll be quite unlike RJ to arrange such a meeting. For one, why would Moir agree with Cads and Sorilea? Moir has met Sorilea before and, like every AS, would know about Cads, but being the Aes Sedai she is, she would probably want to see Rand first thing.

 

Besides, I don't think anyone ever said that Rand would both laugh and cry one after another. Perhaps he laughs when Tam, Mat, Perrin, etc. still see him as the sheepherder from the Two RIvers, then cries when they all die at TG?

 

Regarding the Cadsuane teaching Rand and AM something, I don't believe it will be tears and laughter. I mean, each person has different grievances and joys which may make them laugh or weep. Not quite sure what she WILL teach them though...human weakness maybe?

[Luckers]

I agree... i think it will be the nessasary nature of some human weakness, like laughter and tears. Egwene, who i think is growing to be one of the strongest characters in the series, exemplifies this in her ability to cry without shame, whilst Rand represses which is unhealthy.

[Asajin]

Nice theory' date=' Asajin, but there are some minor loopholes.

 

Besides those which the others have already pointed out, I think it'll be quite unlike RJ to arrange such a meeting. For one, why would Moir agree with Cads and Sorilea? Moir has met Sorilea before and, like every AS, would know about Cads, but being the Aes Sedai she is, she would probably want to see Rand first thing.

 

Besides, I don't think anyone ever said that Rand would both laugh and cry one after another. Perhaps he laughs when Tam, Mat, Perrin, etc. still see him as the sheepherder from the Two RIvers, then cries when they all die at TG?

 

Regarding the Cadsuane teaching Rand and AM something, I don't believe it will be tears and laughter. I mean, each person has different grievances and joys which may make them laugh or weep. Not quite sure what she WILL teach them though...human weakness maybe?[/quote']

 

I like the possibility of Rand laughing when he meets Tam again but them dying. Dear Creator No!!! As always you continue to intriuge me, n00l3y.

[Genesis_XVI]

I like the theory, but I think it a little convienient. It all happens at once, and all so nicely.

 

I think Caddy will teach Rand and the Ashaman humility.

 

I think you might have the major players right though.

 

But I can't shake the feeling that Tam's death will bring a tear to Rand's eye. Rand states that "he would like to see his father one more time before he died" [that's a rough paraphrase], and I don't think RJ put it there for no reason. It probably just means what it literally says though, and I'm reading too much into it.

 

he remembered the shepherd?

 

That's poetic stuff. How long since he remembered the man? How long? I think that Rand remembering tears and laughter is inextricably linked with remembering he's just a man. Sorrilea and Cadsuane will probably help remind him of this, so will grief, and life (the birth of his twins).

 

Who knows though. Anything could happen :) He could stub his toe, cry a little, then laugh at his own folly. But... I doubt it...

 

- Genesis_XVI

[Colmana]

hehe well it does hurt when you stub your toe

 

but it may well have something to do with tam, after all he maintained that he was "just the son of a farmer" though of course now he knows elsewise, but still

 

but if it is something that they are not going to like, you need to think, what won't they like?

[Zardi]

But I can't shake the feeling that Tam's death will bring a tear to Rand's eye.

Honestly, I think if Tam dies before Rand "remembers laughter and tears," it will just harden him more. I really don't see him letting himself feel that emotion. I may be completely wrong here, but for quite some time, anything bad that has happened to Rand has only made him harder. It may be true that nothing so far could compare to the death of his father, but it may actually end up so painful for him that he pushes it out completely so that he can concentrate on TG.

 

My personal opinion is that Tam will help him remember the farmboy he used to be (I know I've said that before, but I think it was in another thread, so please forgive me if I'm being repetitious :)). There is really no one else to help Rand with this. Mat and Perrin have both changed too much. Egwene...well, Rand doesn't even completely trust her anymore. Tam is the only one left who really knew Rand before all of this started, and someone who Rand has not seen since then. Besides, there's something about seeing a parent that can make you feel like a little kid all over again :P

 

As for Caddy...I agree with whoever suggested that she may teach Rand and the Asha'man human weakness. As a whole, they're getting far too over-confident.

[Luckers]

I agree about Tam's death. It'd just make the reprssion deeper on Rand's part.

[Genesis_XVI]

Maybe Tam teaches Rand both laughter and tears. I agree completely that Tam may be the only one that can help him remember the farmboy, and that there is a serious risk that Tam's death would only harden him further. But on the other hand, you look at the two times he's come really close to crying, Herid Fels death, and Moiraine's apparent death, and compare that to his father's... I don't know. No matter how hard he is, I believe he ain't hard enough for that. I could be very wrong though.

 

What do you think about Tam teaching him both tears and laughter. It's not the most obvious choice, but in my mind, Tam (and Abell, but this has nothing to do with the following suggestion) is one of RJ's most underused resources of a character. Whether this is deliberate, or Rj is saving him for something????? I want more of Tam and Abell.

 

Always Genesis_XVI, all the time.

 

:)

[Zardi]

Rand actually did let himself cry for Moiraine, a little bit, but he wasn't so hard back then.

 

I don't doubt that Tam's death would hurt Rand. In fact, I think it would hurt him so much that he wouldn't allow himself to feel it at all. Rand pushes away pain time and again, because it "distracts" him from preparing for TG. So allowing himself to feel the pain of Tam's death would be the ultimate "distraction," except for maybe the death of one of his ladies.

 

He does still allow himself to feel some pleasures, most notably enjoying time with Min (and I mean in an emotional sense here too, not just sexual). That's why I think it's going to take something good...something that would make Rand very happy...to break down those emotional walls. I'm sure Rand would love to see Tam again. However, I also don't think that's enough. Rand hasn't had to worry about Tam all this time. He hasn't been suffering guilt over Tam's "death." Tam might be enough to soften Rand a little bit, or at least make him see that it's ok to feel (more on this below). But I think it will take something of much greater magnitude, like Moiraine returning, alive and well, to really make it happen.

 

As for Tam making Rand see that it's ok to feel: Tam knows war. He is a strong man. But he is not a hard one like Rand is. Something that bugs me about Bashere and Lan is that neither of them seem to see a problem with Rand supressing his emotions, but neither of them do it to the extent that Rand does. Oh sure, Lan is a stone, but with him it seems more like he just doesn't show his emotion outwardly, not that he doesn't feel it. Maybe Tam could help remedy their indirect encouragement of this behavior in Rand? Not enough to break down the walls completely, as I said, but just enough to soften them a bit. I think that if Tam told Rand that he understands part of what Rand is going through, but that hardness and strength are not the same thing, Rand would at least try to listen.

 

I want to see more of Tam and Abel too. Abel didn't come with Tam to join Perrin in KoD, did he? I don't remember him being mentioned.

[ludde]

I can only remember Tam to join Perrin. Yes.

I don’t think Tam’s death will make Rand softer. He may cry but so what. What after that. Then he my close himself so much that not even Min recognizes him. Not that she or he would stop love each other, but I think he would be worse, not for the better. I agree that something good must happen to him. Sorilea wants to teach him laughter and tears again, and being fast to it. But if Rand survives the Last Battle, he can be cured after. We may just have an insight in how it is being done. RJ said that not everything knot must se the light in the common way.

[kittydesmond]

You guys pick it apart...BUT I think rand will get his laughter AND tears when Moraine gets back...just my thought...the rest of it I believe is something else...........

[imsoen]

Maybe Alanna will get killed, with the backlash from the Warder bond causing the tears. It would also eliminate one presence in Rand's head without sacrificing a more "major" character. Unless, of course, Alanna has a bigger role to play...

[cannon]

I think some of you are going a little too literal with this "laughter and tears" thing. Even when Soreilia and Cads said it, they were speaking metaphorically about making Rand recognize his humanity and weaknesses.

 

I agree with Zardi and kitty. Moiraine's return will break down all the walls he's built up and the joy/grief is just going to come gushing out. Her name is always first in his list of those who died for him, and their mentor/student relationship never really resolved before her disappearance.

 

Moiraine comes back, saves Rand's humanity, and tells Cadsuane to go stick it, cause someone has to.

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

Responding to imsoen, Alanna dying would be bad. I know that Rand is not affected by the Warder bond in the same way that an ordinary non-channeler is, but still, there is no evidence that the death of a Warder's Aes Sedai is anything less than a death sentence regardless of who the Warder is. I imagine (though it's only speculation) that if an Asha'man who has bonded his wife or captures an Aes Sedai were to be killed, it would be the death of them too. So as much as I dislike and mistrust Alanna, her death would only serve to de-humanize him further before the snapping of the bond finally kills him since Warders who lose their Aes Sedai seem to grow colder and less human too. (Unless they just go postal and try to kill everything in sight that they don't like.)

 

And yes, I could very well be wrong as Elayne, Min, and Aviendha would do their level best to keep Rand from dying in despair. And maybe it is the despair that kills Warders not simply the breaking of the bond, but I've always envisioned more than despair as the cause of a Warder's death.

 

My two cent... for what they are worth.