On the Seanchan attack of the White Tneower

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

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Once the method is in place all it requires is intelligence--so yes, every Seanchan commander has the capacity to be a 'great captain'. What's more is that with that method as the normal and expected practice, only those that excel at it would gain rank--which we know to be fact as well, from Karede's pov in PoD.

OK. So, let me get this right. If the process is in place, all you need to be is bright? OK.

 

So any Randlander who happened to pick up a variety of books/took lessons from a Great Captain, could be another great captain? I don't believe so. It takes luck, drive, personal bravery, etc. to get to the top. It's not just plug in and play. Not every Seanchan officer has the capacity, else they'd have won the war by now. Only a few make it. Why? Because only a few have the skill.

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Which is, my friend, what the Great Captains are on the Westland side of the ocean. The main difference being that in Westland these practices are so far out of the norm that when captains stumble accross them they are hailed as Great Captains, whereas in Seanchan that's considered merely a nessasary trait in a good commander.

Again, this isn't rocket science so I find it difficult to swallow that a professional soldier might not look back and consider his mistakes. He'd be dead fairly soon if he didn't.

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So yes, that implication is not 'rubbish', and it is that implication exactly the sequence of quotes i provided shows. Stated succinctly;-

Only the quotes didn't do it for me...

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1. The Seanchan employ careful evaluation and discussion of defeats or failures before planning their reactions. As shown by Karede in KoD.

Only the chase of Ituralde doesn't seem to have been particularily considered. Neither does the move to relocate the army from the passes to chase Mat down.

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2. As a result of this method their army has never lost a war. As shown by Cadsuane and Rand.

This is a fact, not an explanitory point.

 

Nevertheless, that's the legend. However, they're not looking so hot at the moment and, in my opinion, there's little of their much vaunted adaptability shining through.

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3. That this is the same method that the Great Captains employ, which is why they are referred to as Great Captains, as shown by Cadsuane and Rand.

That's a jump too far, Luckers. That method is one feature of a Great Captain. You'd be incorrect to read more into the quote than that.

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The conclusion being that Seanchan high military officers are trained in, and excel at the same methods that make the 'Great Captains' great.

Yes ... one might think they'd all be great then. But they're not. They're merely very good. Else they'd have won by now.

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Certainly not, but your again missing the point--the method is there. That training you seem to think dismisses the success he had is a part of the reality that points to the skill of the Seanchan generals.

And you're missing the point too my friend: He ends up dead with his army in full retreat. How is that a success?

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Yes, precisely. It's called thinking and planning, and its what makes a great general great. I don't know how to make that any clearer.

Right... clearly: Changing plans on the move, adapting to situation. Both traits required in any warfare. Lest you be killed very quickly.

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Oh? Has Elaida? She knows both the Asha'men and the Rebels have the skill--indeed, Alviarin specifically brought up the possibility of Asha'men using travelling to assault the Tower. Have they made any plans to deal with that? Have they laid out contingencies, or paused to consider it?

Oh, sorry. I didn't realise that Elaida was part of the Great Captain debate. Hmmmm.... Interesting. What does that have to do with anything?

 

No, she hasn't but then she's an idiot. That does not mean that you are a genius if you do it.

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But beyond that, why is that weak? That DOES precisely make them an incredible military machine. How can you not see that THINKING about about how to face ones enemies is the single greatest defining aspect of a general.

Luckers .... I am not claiming that thinking is not a good thing old pal. All I am merely saying is that I believe that it is frankly ridiculous to think that no general other than the Great Captains in Randland has paused to address why whatever happened in a battle happened.

 

You are correct. It is a defining aspect of generalship. Is is rare? Not in the real world, I'd be amazed if Jordan had imagined that his generals of Randland would be seen as brainless drones.

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Which, again, your wrong about. Clearly wrong. All Seanchan officers have that training, which means they clearly do all have the potential to become Great Captains.

Ok. I'm a tall reasonably well built white man. Do I have the potential to become the fastest man in the world? Answer, no. Why? Because there are biological differences that make black men faster than white men. Just as there are biological differences which mean that white people dominate swimming events.

 

Now, I believe that some people are born with a natural talent. Those people, in the case of RJ militaries, are the Great Captains. It's not something that is taught. This natural talent must be backed up drive, ambition, luck, charisma, toughness etc. Meaning that very few ever make it.

 

Given that I believe the above, and that the Seanchan haven't swept all before them, I believe that, merely being part of the system does not mean that they will all be Great Captains.

 

Do all young players who sign for a major sports team make the grade? No. There are a million factors involved. It's the same thing and quite a simple concept. That's as simple as I can make it.

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How so, precisely? Skill as a general does not imply the magical ability to win, and we don't know that any of the Seanchan officers in play at Falme WERE skilled generals. How would even mat have acted to fight of the heroes, who could not be harmed?

Fine. If all Seanchan commanders were highly skilled officers they'd probably have eaten Ituralde alive during the raid. They'd have crushed all opposition ahead of them and would be sitting on a lovely, pacified half of the world.

 

Skill does imply an ability to win. A lack of skill makes it an impossibility.

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But no, seriously, what is it you're expecting?....That is what the Seanchan do, and that is what the Great Captains do too.

OK... one last time... No I am not suggesting that the Seanchan should win everything. All I am saying is that the Seanchan are not the superhumans you appear to believe they are. Clearly, they have not won all the battles. Clearly they are human.

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I mean honestly, need i requote Cadsuane and Rand's converastion--i thought them pretty clear on this issue.

Quote away old lad.

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Absolutely, but we arn't talking about average officers... we know there is incompetence there. We know its not tolerated when found, but it's there.

Only your assumption is that high ranking Seanchan officers are all excellent soldiers. I am merely pointing out that among a highly trained, highly successful armed force, that there is still room for incompetance. I am not saying any are, merely that assuming that they're all excellent on the basis of their rank is somewhat naive.

[Hybrid]

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The Seanchan invasion of Altara and Tarabon came at a time when there was no major organized body to oppose them, right? So, a well organized, huge, armed force (with unprecedented numbers of channelers) and revolutionary tactics, wipes out all comers in battle. It manages to do this in two states that are wracked by civil conflict and generally a total mess, had no channelers, and were generally in a state of chaos.

 

Well, excuse me. If they had lost, I’d be wondering what was going on.

I agree, the success of the invasions of Altara and Tarabon was to be expected.  However, the resistance in either nation has not gained any strength whatsoever.  In the presence of a foreign invader, it would be expected that the native forces would band together to resist.

 

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Amadicia. Yeah, that’s a little different. However, the blitzkrieg won it for them, they seem to have struck right at the Fortress of Light and cut off the head of the beast. Excellent.

 

I must admit, I was shocked when Amadicia was swallowed up so quickly. However, there were few, if any, channelers to combat the Suldam (due to the legal status of Aes Sedai/the Whitecloaks) and the Seanchan appeared to have taken out the CotL asap. Well, that makes sense.

The Seanchan didn't really take out the CotL.  Valda still had considerable strength with him during KOD.  What the Seanchan did do was capture the Fortress of the Light.  They then proceeded to massacre Amadicia's forces and the remaining strength of the CotL combined in a battle, leading to the truce with the CotL.  The argument about the channelers is ridiculous.  None of the nations has a significant channeler defense, except for the Asha'man.  The Aes Sedai can't fight until their lives are in danger, and they aren't likely to join the front lines of battle.

 

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OK. I won’t take offense at the “silly” comment.

No offense was intended.

 

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I’ve never stated that Randland has the monopoly on Great Captains.

 

My point was, to think that they have a lot of Great Captains is a little over the top in my opinion.

 

Bare with me here:

 

Think of the US armed forces of WW2. A huge number of men, right? Name the Great Captains. What, Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley? OK. Even they had their detractors. Eisenhower was seen as too cautious, Patton too brash. OK, Bradley seems to have done very well to escape much criticism at all. Moving on to the Germans. Von Manstein, Guderain, Rommel? Guderain, politically incompetent, though a good general (pioneer of Blitzkreig), Rommel, fantastic on a divisional level, but struggled with logistical matters. Von Manstein? Possibly the best general of WW2. Orchestrated the German withdrawal from Russia.

 

So there we have it. Two of the most prominent armed forces in WW2, arguably you’ve got say 6 or 7 generals between the two (obviously, I picked a handful) who might be considered great. Given that Germany between 1935 and 1945 had around 18,000,000 men under arms … and they produced maybe 3 or 4 great generals during WW2 …. Well, excuse me if I am a little skeptical re. hordes of Seanchan Great Captains coming riding over the horizon. … Unless, of course there are around 18,000,000 Seanchan soldiers…

I never spoke of hordes of Seanchan Great Captains.  However, the fact that the original Seanchan, the armies of Luthair, took on armies with channeling power while they themselves had none and unified an entire continent implies to me that the Seanchan have an excellent military heritage.  While you did not straight speak about a monopoly of Great Captains, your comments imply that there is a limit on the number of Great Captains based on real world analogies, and that because Randland has 6 or 7 of them, Seanchan must not have any.  This, as you are found of pointing out, is conjecture as well as a logical fallacy.  The Seanchan developed indepedently of Randland after Luthair's invasion, so I fail to see how the number of Randland's Great Captains influences the number of Seanchan's.

 

A second point I would like to make is that there are plenty of men in Randland who would have the wisdom to be good, if not great, captains.  However, the nobility requirement blocks many of them from achieving high rank.  Look at Daerid (no, I'm not suggesting that Daerid is a Great Captain), for example.  Mat believes that he is a much better commander than Nalesean and possibly Talmanes, but Daerid, being a commoner, will likely not rise above his current rank in the Cairhien army.  In Seanchan, on the other hand, the military is a meritocracy.  The effective generals rise in status, the incompetents likely are executed messily.  The method of the Great Captains of Randland is part of the military system of Seanchan.  I don't believe it is a great stretch to state that the Seanchan likely have their own great generals.

 

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Bare with me here

I really do not want to come across as insulting or offensive or a grammar nazi, but this phrase is hilarious.  I would appreciate it if you would not undress, and I have no wish to do so with you either.  I didn't realize discussion on DM could be so... intimate.  I think the phrase you are looking for is "Bear with me here."

 

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All the talk about “a large continent with a major military history” well, here’s my answer, so what? What slight bit of difference does that make?

 

I’m a Brit. Love us or hate us, half the world was controlled by the British at one stage controlled by guns and a formidable army and navy. But…..in terms of great captains?  During the Napoleonic Wars we had Nelson and Wellington. During the First World War, we had none. During the Second World War we had Slim, Wavell, possibly Montgomery. Now? No idea.

 

The point? It’s all to do with the time. Saying “They’ve got a great military history therefore they’ll have loads of good generals” is a falsehood. It all depends on the current crop of generals.

Suggesting that the Seanchan have no great generals because of the history of Britain is also a falsehood.  I also did not state that there would be loads of great generals.  I simply stated that the Seanchan have their own great generals who can likely match Bashere, Ituralde, Agelmar, and Bryne in war.

 

Forgive me if I'm not keeping up with the discussion.  The pages on this discussion seem to have multiplied exponentially.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

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The Seanchan didn't really take out the CotL.

They took the headquarters of the CotL. I'd have thought that'd be enough to decapitate any CotL resistance for a good while. That's what I was referring to.

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The argument about the channelers is ridiculous.  None of the nations has a significant channeler defense, except for the Asha'man.  The Aes Sedai can't fight until their lives are in danger, and they aren't likely to join the front lines of battle.

Ummmm... I'm aware none of the nations had a channeler defence... what's your point...? All I said was something akin to "Without an organized channeling force they didn't stand a chance." I didn't realise I needed to elaborate on what I originally posted. What "argument" are you referring to?

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I never spoke of hordes of Seanchan Great Captains.

No, but you implied that I believed, or at least appeared to believe, that only Randland had GCs. Hence the explanation of my views on Seanchan GCs.

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While you did not straight speak about a monopoly of Great Captains, your comments imply that there is a limit on the number of Great Captains based on real world analogies, and that because Randland has 6 or 7 of them, Seanchan must not have any.

I didn't say that. The 6/7 figure actually referred to GCs of the Second World War. Not Randland. You've misunderstood, and I certainly didn't claim that the Seanchan would have none based on any figures.

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This, as you are found of pointing out, is conjecture as well as a logical fallacy.  The Seanchan developed indepedently of Randland after Luthair's invasion, so I fail to see how the number of Randland's Great Captains influences the number of Seanchan's.

Nope, again, apologies, but you're mistaken. I didn't state that Randland had any relationship with Seanchan. The only numbers I mentioned were WW2 generals. I suggested that the German armed forces might have had 6 or so. That was based on a strength (between 1935-45) of 18,000,000. No other figures were mentioned.

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Seanchan, on the other hand, the military is a meritocracy.  The effective generals rise in status, the incompetents likely are executed messily.  The method of the Great Captains of Randland is part of the military system of Seanchan.  I don't believe it is a great stretch to state that the Seanchan likely have their own great generals.

Hang on. I have never said that the Seanchan don't have GC's.

 

What I have been saying is why is everyone assuming that every high level Seanchan officer s a GC. That's all. I'm also asserting my opinion that the idea that a professional soldier might actually reflect upon their actions. That's all.

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I really do not want to come across as insulting or offensive or a grammar nazi, but this phrase is hilarious.  I would appreciate it if you would not undress, and I have no wish to do so with you either.  I didn't realize discussion on DM could be so... intimate.  I think the phrase you are looking for is "Bear with me here."

Hmmm... you're right.

 

A little childish, no?

 

Apologies, I don't mean to sound like a grammar Nazi. Start complaining about grammar and there's no point on coming to this site. I'd suggest a comma somewhere with regards to your little list (or maybe 2 between insulting, or offensive, or a grammar Nazi). "Nazi" takes a capital N by the way. And you'd need a comma after the word "is" in your last line.

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Suggesting that the Seanchan have no great generals because of the history of Britain is also a falsehood.  I also did not state that there would be loads of great generals.  I simply stated that the Seanchan have their own great generals who can likely match Bashere, Ituralde, Agelmar, and Bryne in war.

And I'm sure they do. My point was that it all depends on the current batch. Not on military history. Simple really.

 

Again, please point out where I said that the Seanchan had no great captains. I didn't. You've misunderstood.

 

Now, I can re-explain the WW2 and historical elements of my last post if you'd like. I think they're perfectly valid and might be useful in discussing the topic.

Put simply:

1. The WW2 armed forces were enormous. Yet, they produced a relatively small number of "great captains". Germany, for example, had 18,000,000 men under arms between 1938-1945. Given that, with 18,000,000 men signed up over the period, the Germans only produced (let's be generous) say 10 great captains, well. The Wehrmacht was a highly trained, highly professional army that was also prone to introspection. ... Similar to the Seanchan. Now ... 18,000,000= around 10 great captains, despite a sympathetic system? Well. Excuse me, but why, on Earth should all Seanchan generals be anywhere near top class?

2. The British history bit: Despite having a long military tradition, it all comes down to how good your generals of the day are. Simply, any nation in the world might, at any time, have suffer from a dearth of talent at the top end. When that happens you're stuffed. Tradition or no. How are the Seanchan any different?

 

So, the generals aren't necessarily brilliant, there aren't necessarily a lot of top class generals, and a tradition of warfare doesn't mean that your officers will be top class.

 

Note, that is not to say that the Seanchan won't have a handful of great captains, they almost certainly do, but we can't/shouldn't just assume that they're all exceptional.

[Hybrid]

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Ummmm... I'm aware none of the nations had a channeler defence... what's your point...? All I said was something akin to "Without an organized channeling force they didn't stand a chance." I didn't realise I needed to elaborate on what I originally posted. What "argument" are you referring to?

In your post, you expressed surprise at the speed of Amadicia's fall, then spoke of how it was expected because of a lack of channeler defense.  The inference I drew was that because of Amadicia's anti-channeler laws, they were an exception in regards to a channeler defense.  A misunderstanding on my part.

 

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Hang on. I have never said that the Seanchan don't have GC's.

 

What I have been saying is why is everyone assuming that every high level Seanchan officer s a GC. That's all. I'm also asserting my opinion that the idea that a professional soldier might actually reflect upon their actions. That's all.

I never made any such assumption.  I simply was responding to Auld Manriva that the Seanchan have their own generals who are at the very least competent and most likely consist of a few Great Captains in their own right.  However, while you bring that up...

 

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My point is, to suggest that the Seanchan would have a collection of great captains is, in my opinion, a leap of faith.

 

My misunderstanding, as you put it, resulted from that point you made way back in the beginning of the thread.

 

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Hmmm... you're right.

 

A little childish, no?

 

Apologies, I don't mean to sound like a grammar Nazi. Start complaining about grammar and there's no point on coming to this site. I'd suggest a comma somewhere with regards to your little list (or maybe 2 between insulting, or offensive, or a grammar Nazi). "Nazi" takes a capital N by the way. And you'd need a comma after the word "is" in your last line.

Geez, I'm sorry you don't have a sense of humor.  As an aside, I tried to point out how funny that phrase was, and now you're jumping on me like I'm a child (well, maybe I technically am  :P).  Notice, I haven't pointed out every single grammatical mistake in your posts, nor are my posts devoid of grammatical or spelling mistakes.  I'm not complaining about your mistake.  I just thought it was hilarious and pointed it out.  By no means does it retract from my taking your arguments seriously.  It was just an attempt to lighten up the discussion a little.  Perhaps I shouldn't have tried though.  My apologies.

 

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Now, I can re-explain the WW2 and historical elements of my last post if you'd like. I think they're perfectly valid and might be useful in discussing the topic.

Put simply:

1. The WW2 armed forces were enormous. Yet, they produced a relatively small number of "great captains". Germany, for example, had 18,000,000 men under arms between 1938-1945. Given that, with 18,000,000 men signed up over the period, the Germans only produced (let's be generous) say 10 great captains, well. The Wehrmacht was a highly trained, highly professional army that was also prone to introspection. ... Similar to the Seanchan. Now ... 18,000,000= around 10 great captains, despite a sympathetic system? Well. Excuse me, but why, on Earth should all Seanchan generals be anywhere near top class?

2. The British history bit: Despite having a long military tradition, it all comes down to how good your generals of the day are. Simply, any nation in the world might, at any time, have suffer from a dearth of talent at the top end. When that happens you're stuffed. Tradition or no. How are the Seanchan any different?

 

So, the generals aren't necessarily brilliant, there aren't necessarily a lot of top class generals, and a tradition of warfare doesn't mean that your officers will be top class.

 

Note, that is not to say that the Seanchan won't have a handful of great captains, they almost certainly do, but we can't/shouldn't just assume that they're all exceptional.

My point is that the method of the entire Seanchan military is one of the methods which puts the Great Captains in Randland ahead of the pack.  It is not the only method.  There is a need for creativity, quick thinking, intelligence, resourcefulness, and a mix of courage and caution as well.  However, I do not consider it a leap of faith to assume that the Seanchan have Great Captains and that those Great Captains would be among the leaders of one of the greatest military excursions ever.  In addition, as I pointed out, the Seanchan do not feel the need to only promote nobles to high military ranks, regardless of their strategic abilities.  To me, this suggests that at any given time, the Seanchan will have a number of good generals.  This does not mean that every Seanchan officer will be exceptional, and I have never argued that.  However, the Seanchan officers will, on average, be much more competent than the nobles of Randland.

[wvlr]

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Mmm. And i don't see the Seanchan ever trying things that might be done to a da'tsang. I'm actually looking forward to see how that plays out--of all the channelers the Seanchan have captured, the Aiel Wise ones strike me as being the strongest willed and the most capable of resisting. The Three Fold Land shaped them well, even the Shaido.

 

Yes, this is one of the many major parts of AMoL that I am very anxiously waiting for.    It has significant potential to cause a great deal of disruption to the Seanchan sul'dams and possibly beyond.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

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In your post, you expressed surprise at the speed of Amadicia's fall, then spoke of how it was expected because of a lack of channeler defense.  The inference I drew was that because of Amadicia's anti-channeler laws, they were an exception in regards to a channeler defense.  A misunderstanding on my part.

Ahhh. Apologies. The section about a channeler defence was a sort of written explanation of why I felt they fell. An inability to defend against Damane must have been a major part of this. I wasn't suggesting that any other state would do any better.

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My misunderstanding, as you put it, resulted from that point you made way back in the beginning of the thread.

And I stand by that ... A handful of great captains, yes. A lot of great captains? Not in my view. You don't get geniuses by the dozen.

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Geez, I'm sorry you don't have a sense of humor. 

I'd just be careful about picking on the deficencies of the writing on this site. You never know who you're talking to that's all. Plus, I personally found it hilarious that your "Grammar Nazi" post contained a good few errors. Ironic, no?

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It was just an attempt to lighten up the discussion a little.  Perhaps I shouldn't have tried though.  My apologies.

No worries. I found it funny ... after I hung my head in shame.  ::)

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My point is that the method of the entire Seanchan military is one of the methods which puts the Great Captains in Randland ahead of the pack.  It is not the only method. There is a need for creativity, quick thinking, intelligence, resourcefulness, and a mix of courage and caution as well.  However, I do not consider it a leap of faith to assume that the Seanchan have Great Captains and that those Great Captains would be among the leaders of one of the greatest military excursions ever.  In addition, as I pointed out, the Seanchan do not feel the need to only promote nobles to high military ranks, regardless of their strategic abilities.  To me, this suggests that at any given time, the Seanchan will have a number of good generals.  This does not mean that every Seanchan officer will be exceptional, and I have never argued that.  However, the Seanchan officers will, on average, be much more competent than the nobles of Randland.

Ok... I'm totally lost.

 

Here's a summary of your last post (the quote above):

1. The Seanchan military, as a whole, practice retrospection & study options carefully.

2. However, you do not feel that this skill alone makes for a GC.

3. You do not feel that it is a leap of faith to think that the Seanchan have GCs.

4. Those mentioned in point 3 would be among the best of the best.

5. Due to promotion of everyone (based on merit) there's a larger pool of talent and therefore the Seanchan will have more talented officers.

6. They will not all be excellent, but the average will be higher than that of Rands lot.

 

Ok...

 

I agree with points 1,2,3,4,5 & 6.

 

The only slight problem I have is that you still appear, correct me if I'm wrong, to think that I don't believe the Seanchan will have GCs. Which I do.

 

This is where we're getting snarled up... I have never said that the Seanchan will not have GCs. What I have said, repeatedly, is that it is wrong to assume that all that all their high ranking officers would be GCs, and that vast numbers of officers do not guarentee a large number of GCs, nor does a long military past.

[Mr Ares]

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Well, we can't all be as brilliant as me.

Which, if you think about it, doesn't mean you're all that brilliant.

 

:p

Well, I'm still very brilliant. Just not as brilliant as me. So I'm actually more brilliant than myself. It's not easy, being me and knowing you can never be as brilliant as him. Although, possibly easier than getting sense out of that last sentence.

[Sabio]

Well if you think about it, if they did attack I am sure they are in for a surprise when they find 2 large groups of Aes Sedai and 2 rather large armies there. 

[Luckers]

Ok, I wrote out a point by point reply to you Thin Innkeeper, and realised along the way that you had a complete misunderstanding about what I was arguing, so instead i'll address it from a different perspective. Hopefully I can clarify my position for you.

 

To begin with, you found the quotes i provided failures, but seem to be expecting them to say more than i was using them to show.

 

Alright then, I'll instead attempt to show you in progression why i consider them so relevant. Let's start with what makes a great general. Now, you make the point in your post that natural aptitude is a significant point, and i agree completely. No one will become a brilliant general without that natural aptitude, but the progression which allows that natural aptitude to manifest itself is important.

 

I believe that Karede's quote addressed this issue. Specifically, it shows that the Seanchan military cultivate careful thought, planning and innovation in tactical action. Now you yourself admitted that these are the charictaristics of good generaling--but from there you seemed to think that i was suggesting that just because the Seanchan all practice this that all should be 'Great Captains', and you offered the point that surely other in Randland would have such skills. I believe you stated this.

 

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It is a defining aspect of generalship. Is is rare? Not in the real world, I'd be amazed if Jordan had imagined that his generals of Randland would be seen as brainless drones

 

I believe here you are overestimating the generals in Randland, and that this is a major crux in our disagreement.

 

Generaling in Randland is mostly done by nobles--in order of rank, and usually enacted out of a romantic concept of how they should fight--a concept usually involving glorious cavallry charges. Indeed, one of the great innovations you raised, the Band of the Red Hand, began because of Mat's absolute disgust with the way Randlanders routinely went about wars.

 

In effect what i am trying to say to you is that yes, it is rare. Indeed, so rare that when generals enact it effectively they are hailed accross the land as Great Captains. Now you state that others amongst Randlanders must pause and think following defeats, and obviously you would be correct--but concious intelligent warfare is not the normal practice in Randland--as Cadsuane and Rand's conversation was designed to show, but in truth has been layered throughout the story.

 

And that is significant. Thats the tie in. There has to have been Randlanders who have thought this way who didn't become great generals. Some would have lacked the intelligence, experience or skill--the natural aptitude--but many would have had that and simply have been unable to do anything because their nobles didn't listen, or disdained their plans because it wasn't what they normally did in war.

 

In effect, this thing that you reguard as being so simple, so obvious that you dismiss my quotes has not been simple and obvious to Randland. Indeed its been actively fought every step of the way by nobles close to Rand and Mat.

 

Do you see now the significance of those quotes? The Seanchan cultivate and seek out the skills that enable someone to become a 'Great Captains' whilst their Westland counterparts have to struggle against millenia of cultural sitgma to attain the role. Thats part of why they are reguarded as so remarkable--what are 'Great Captains' in the Westlands are to the Seanchan merely generals that have happened to excelled in their particular field. To be praised, but they arn't anything too far out of the norm.

 

 

Now, seperate of that, you've raised the lack of innovation amongst the Seanchan in comparison to the Randlanders--you seem to think i was focusing on the crossbow cranks in exclusion to others, say the forming of the Band of the Red Hand, or the creation of the Black Tower--in truth i was not. Both are addressed by the same sequence of answers.

 

The issue is that that innovation has nothing to do with skills at generaling. Rand has been building himself an empire from scrap, by nature he's forced to create new groups. The Seanchan did that a thousand years ago, and did so successfully. Their armies formatting rivals the Bands, and their buerecratic orginisation of supplying that army by far exceeds anything any of Randlands armies have availliable--which Mat notes for himself.

 

That Randland is only now doing what Seanchan did a millenia ago is not a sign that they have smarter generals. Nor is their creation of the cranks, or their discovery of travelling, or their use of sa'angreal.

 

The reality is that the Randlanders have made some fairly impressive innovative steps--both technological and organisational. And that they have proceeded to employ these new things brilliantly in battle. The Seanchan have made no great changes or discoveries--but that is in large part because their set up works--it is tried and tested from a thousand years of warfare.

 

Take for instance the situation in PoD, and the general that was forced to try and deal with Rand's army travelling, which he knew nothing of and had never encountered. Caught on the run he devised a plan that by Bashere's own comments would have worked--a plan that he himself would have done.

 

Now i know your comment was he ended dead with his army in retreat--which happened because Rand employed Callandor, which he had no way of predicting or planning for--but that doesn't change anything. He was able to devise a stratedy capable of gaining victory based on the facts he had presented to him, a plan that Bashere would have employed in his place. He did not know all the details, of Callandor, but that irrelevant--that happens in war. That doesn't speak to his ability.

 

It is the same issue with the attack on the Tower. You claim it is not innovative for them to have used aerial forces which clearly they must have used at other times in their history. But i think thats looking at it wrong--in the face of an Aes Sedai weapon they couldn't fight they developed a plan that enabled them to nuetralise Aes Sedai power at the heart. It's practical, clever and ambitious.

 

I think your just caught up in Randland, which due to its population decline hasn't seen any true war (because the major reason for war, which is land control, is not an issue) for a thousand years and is like an infant at it. Recently they've grown up hard and fast, and have done quite well. The Seanchan grew up long ago, and are employing that education to great effect in Randland--and they are doing it cleverly, applying those lessons to each situation they encounter, thinking through how to best approach each situation.

 

That to me is great generaling--and from more than an individual brilliant general, but from a national perspective.

 

 

[Hybrid]

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I'd just be careful about picking on the deficencies of the writing on this site. You never know who you're talking to that's all. Plus, I personally found it hilarious that your "Grammar Nazi" post contained a good few errors. Ironic, no?

Indeed.   ;D

 

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Ok...

 

I agree with points 1,2,3,4,5 & 6.

 

The only slight problem I have is that you still appear, correct me if I'm wrong, to think that I don't believe the Seanchan will have GCs. Which I do.

 

This is where we're getting snarled up... I have never said that the Seanchan will not have GCs. What I have said, repeatedly, is that it is wrong to assume that all that all their high ranking officers would be GCs, and that vast numbers of officers do not guarentee a large number of GCs, nor does a long military past.

Ah, then we have nothing to argue about.  My mistake.  As I pointed out, my misunderstanding resulted from your first post.  I thought that by "collection of great captains" you meant having great captains rather than a large number of great captains.  I did point out that I thought a number of their high-ranking officers were good generals, though indeed Great Captain may be a bit of a stretch.  I do believe that Karede, at least, is ahead of the rest of the pack if not a Great Captain himself.  The accounts of Yulan seem to indicate something similar, but we'll just have to wait and see how the White Tower situation plays out.  Galgan, we have no knowledge of, but the fact that he is the general of the Seanchan forces to me indicates that he is likely very competent.  Khirgan strikes me as competent but not great, though we have an account of only one battle she participated in.  I realize I lumped them all together in my original post, but my intent was just to prove that the Seanchan could hold their own with Randland's generals.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

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I believe that Karede's quote addressed this issue. Specifically, it shows that the Seanchan military cultivate careful thought, planning and innovation in tactical action.

See, I don't think the quote shows this, at all.

 

The quote shows, in my opinion:

1. That Karede is being pumped for information by nobles who will not use it for any practical purpose.

2. That his contemporaries are seeking him out.

3. That he has been promoted on merit.

4. That decisions are made elsewhere, presumably by officers higher up the foodchain.

 

Now, 2-4 are fine. However, I don't believe they're cause to get worked up. They're standard practice in standing armies. We'll get to that, I know.

 

Added to that, 2 is clearly a massive downside. It's a total waste of time.

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Generaling in Randland is mostly done by nobles--in order of rank, and usually enacted out of a romantic concept of how they should fight--a concept usually involving glorious cavallry charges. Indeed, one of the great innovations you raised, the Band of the Red Hand, began because of Mat's absolute disgust with the way Randlanders routinely went about wars.

Yes and no. Generalling under Rand's lot appears to be the domain of nobles. However, a., We have seen non-noble commanders. In fact, in the glossaries, it mentions Captains of the Horse (the noblewoman's commander) frequently they are commoners. b. In Illian, within the Companians, commoners can rise to high rank. Witness Tam al'Thor. c., Not all nobles are inept. I'm thinking of the boarderlanders here, also the Andoran nobles who refused to meet Elayne (Pelivar et al) are repeatedly talked about as being talented.

 

I understand your point entirely. I merely believe that you are putting too much stock into the attitudes of a few of Rand's hangers-on. Certainly, there are inept noble commanders, but there are also a., talented nobles, and b., commoners in command.

 

Now, I'm anticipating your claim that those I've mentioned are few and far between. Fine. So are your reference points - i.e. those nobles under Rand with whom he has talked about combat with.

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In effect what i am trying to say to you is that yes, it is rare. Indeed, so rare that when generals enact it effectively they are hailed accross the land as Great Captains. Now you state that others amongst Randlanders must pause and think following defeats, and obviously you would be correct--but concious intelligent warfare is not the normal practice in Randland--as Cadsuane and Rand's conversation was designed to show, but in truth has been layered throughout the story.

I disagree firmly. No general or commander who fought for any length of time would have survived if they had not reflected on the past. No way. The commanders I mentioned above are not stupid yet neither are they GCs. It is the combination of factors that makes a GC. Caddy and Rand talk about one aspect, that's it. Personally I think you are putting too much into it.

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In effect, this thing that you reguard as being so simple, so obvious that you dismiss my quotes has not been simple and obvious to Randland. Indeed its been actively fought every step of the way by nobles close to Rand and Mat.

I disagree, for the reasons above.

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Do you see now the significance of those quotes? The Seanchan cultivate and seek out the skills that enable someone to become a 'Great Captains' whilst their Westland counterparts have to struggle against millenia of cultural sitgma to attain the role. Thats part of why they are reguarded as so remarkable--what are 'Great Captains' in the Westlands are to the Seanchan merely generals that have happened to excelled in their particular field. To be praised, but they arn't anything too far out of the norm.

Yes, the Seanchan seek to teach the skills, I've never denied this. My point is this - all that means is that there will be  a number of very talented commanders. Does that mean they're GCs? No. I don't believe so. Why? Natural aptitude. Talented, yes, Great, no.

 

That was the whole point behind the section on the German army of WW2. They were a highly professional armed force. They studied their successes and failures. They were technologically innovative. In short, they were very similar to the Seanchan in their approach to learning about warfare. Now... they had 18,000,000 men under arms over a ten year period that ended in 1945. Yet they only produced, maybe, 10 "Great Generals". That's 1,800,000 men per "Great General".

 

My belief is simply that GCs don't grow on trees. There isn't a school you can send them to.

 

Plus, as I've pointed out below, I think you're basing most of your comments on Wetlander generals on a very select group - Rand's Tairens and Cairheirns (sp). Given how status-obsessed they are, I don't feel that it's the best group to use.

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The issue is that that innovation has nothing to do with skills at generaling.

I disagree entirely. Innovation is at the heart of a modern armed force. It's the guy who comes up with a new idea, a new way of doing who wins. Who comes up with those ideas? The guys who are at the cutting edge ... the best generals.

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Their armies formatting rivals the Bands

Where did you get that from? I don't recall seeing any reference to similarities.

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and their buerecratic orginisation of supplying that army by far exceeds anything any of Randlands armies have availliable--which Mat notes for himself.

Because it hasn't been needed. Nevertheless, we're seeing the use of Traveling to begin to overcome this problem. We're also going to see the mass mobilization of states to achieve logistical feats, e.g. the Seafolk, and the Tariens in their feeding of Cairhein.

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That Randland is only now doing what Seanchan did a millenia ago is not a sign that they have smarter generals. Nor is their creation of the cranks, or their discovery of travelling, or their use of sa'angreal.

No, it does not. However, it does show an understanding of the need to adapt. Which I haven't seen from the Seanchan.

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The Seanchan have made no great changes or discoveries--but that is in large part because their set up works--it is tried and tested from a thousand years of warfare.

It remains to be seen if the Seanchan set-up works in this new environment. They've done fine when encountering failed states or employing Blitzkreig. Beyond that, they're facing problems. Ituralde, Mat, and Bashere/Rand have proved that.

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Take for instance the situation in PoD, and the general that was forced to try and deal with Rand's army travelling, which he knew nothing of and had never encountered. Caught on the run he devised a plan that by Bashere's own comments would have worked--a plan that he himself would have done.

One general reacting well does not indicate that their entire officer corps is incredibly talented. Throughout the history of military conflict there have been examples of men performing well when they were expected to roll over and die.

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But i think thats looking at it wrong--in the face of an Aes Sedai weapon they couldn't fight they developed a plan that enabled them to nuetralise Aes Sedai power at the heart. It's practical, clever and ambitious.

A weapon they never really faced apart from with a small force. So, what did they do? They reverted to type. It's practical and certainly ambitious, but clever? Not in my eyes.

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I think your just caught up in Randland, which due to its population decline hasn't seen any true war (because the major reason for war, which is land control, is not an issue) for a thousand years and is like an infant at it.

We have the Borderlands and the Blight. We also have the Aiel War. Not exactly small.

 

We've had "true" war but it's been in a constant form.

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Recently they've grown up hard and fast, and have done quite well. The Seanchan grew up long ago, and are employing that education to great effect in Randland--and they are doing it cleverly, applying those lessons to each situation they encounter, thinking through how to best approach each situation.

They have. In so doing, I believe they've done a much better job than the Seanchan. Period. After all, they've managed to hold off the advances of a unified empire. All that empire has taken is failed states and Amadicia. That's not a great return. - Especially if you see Arad Doman and Tarabon descending into Randlands version of Vietnam, or Iraq. Which, it could well do.

[Luckers]

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1. That Karede is being pumped for information by nobles who will not use it for any practical purpose.

 

Yes, but your missing the obvious there--the nobles do this because they want to be rewarded for it.

 

Yes, their efforts mean nothing, and amount to nothing. That doesn't matter, because what it shows is that Seanchan cultivate the process of thought, planning and innovation in tactical action, and more importantly reaction to failure. The Seanchan reward people that do this--thats the only reason the nobles are doing it, because by doing it they hope to be rewarded.

 

That, combined with the fact that we do know that Seanchan officials are raised on merit, proves that the Seanchan not only cultivate and encourage this method, they raise those that excel at it to high power.

 

Does that make sense to you?

 

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Now, 2-4 are fine. However, I don't believe they're cause to get worked up. They're standard practice in standing armies.

 

Not in Randland ones.

 

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Yes and no. Generalling under Rand's lot appears to be the domain of nobles. However, a., We have seen non-noble commanders. In fact, in the glossaries, it mentions Captains of the Horse (the noblewoman's commander) frequently they are commoners. b. In Illian, within the Companians, commoners can rise to high rank. Witness Tam al'Thor. c., Not all nobles are inept. I'm thinking of the boarderlanders here, also the Andoran nobles who refused to meet Elayne (Pelivar et al) are repeatedly talked about as being talented.

 

The concept of the sergeant came about because of exactly this issue. There is a degree of practicality in any system, no matter how foolish. But we are talking of general practice, and the influence that has on people having the opportunities and the training to truly excel, which is completely lacking in Randland armies.

 

For don't mistake it, those commoners who rise high through skill end up seconds--sergeants, Captain's of the Companions, as with Tam. Lord of the Horse, as with Anaiyella.

 

They are not generals, their expertise and skill are utilized in a derogatory manner, and ignored easily and often. One need look no further than the Band to see that. Here's Mat and Talmanes discussion on the subject.

 

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"You left Estean in charge?" Toy erupted, so loudly that a covey of doves burst from cover in the thing undergrowth with a mournful whirring sound. "The man's a fool!"

 

"Not too much of a fool to listen to Daerid." [bunch of stuff about him calmly eyeing the scenery] "Carlomin and Reimon are not fools--at least Reimon is not a fool all the time--but nor will they listen to a comoner no matter how much more he knows about warfare. Edorian will, but i want him with me."

 

[Tuon rambles to herself for a paragraph]

 

"That's going to change, Talmanes," Toy growled. "I let it go on too long as it is. If Reimon and the others command banners now, that maked them Banner-Generals. And you a Leitenant-General. Daerid commands five banners and that makes him a Leuitenant-General too. Reimon and the others will obey his orders or can go home. Come Tarmon Gai'don I'm not having my head cut open because they bloody refuse to listen to somebody who doesn't have bloody estates."

 

[bit about Talmane's moustache] "They will not like it Mat."

 

Yes, Mat's tired with it, but he is fighting this issue because it is the normal method. Warfare in randland is fought as a matter of traditional style. The type of generaling you describe as so simple is not known to them. Those that figure it out on their own are exceptions--and thus reguarded as exceptional--well, at least when they are nobleman. The commeners who do it at best end up as 'Lord of the Horse', or 'Captain of the Companions (a bodyguard)'. None rise higher, and far more often they are simply pushed aside by the nobles and ignored.

 

The Seanchan on the other hand practice this style as a matter of course.

 

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I disagree firmly. No general or commander who fought for any length of time would have survived if they had not reflected on the past. No way. The commanders I mentioned above are not stupid yet neither are they GCs. It is the combination of factors that makes a GC. Caddy and Rand talk about one aspect, that's it. Personally I think you are putting too much into it.

 

Ok, your problem seems to be that you can't see anyone doing something that stupid, therefore your assuming they wouldn't. I can understand that, yet nevertheless thats the reality in the books. In part I think you don't entirely understand the nature of warfare in Randland. None of those countries (with the possible exception of the borderlands) maintains standing armies. They usually have some form of a civil guard that is one part ceremonial, one part police force, and then in times of actual war they supplement that guard with the forces of the nobles--which is to say their famers and local vassels.

 

And this is reguarded as the right way of doing things. Consider Dyelin's horror that Elayne increased the Queen's Guard into a genuine army--and her conviction that that would turn every noble away from her.

 

Furthermore, from that point war is actually very rare in the westlands. They have the occaisional skirmish, but no nation has either the numbers or the reach to effectively engage in war. Effectively this is speaking to your feeling that any commander or general who has fought for any length of time would escape this--and that is the point, the only career soldiers in these nations represent only a very minor portion of their armed forces, and in times of war that element is completely subsumed into the noble forces.

 

Those commanders you mentioned, every one, fit this. They arn't stupid, and they attained rank to a degree, but in war they are under the command of nobles who are under the command of nobles right on up.

 

That's the reality--and part of the reason the simple fact that the Seanchan don't do this is so significant. Perhaps you begin to see that--i take from your post that you cannot concieve anyone doing this, yet we know for a fact from the books that this is the case--given your degree of disbelief, do you not see the significance of those that arn't so stupid?

 

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Yes, the Seanchan seek to teach the skills, I've never denied this. My point is this - all that means is that there will be  a number of very talented commanders. Does that mean they're GCs? No. I don't believe so. Why? Natural aptitude. Talented, yes, Great, no.

 

Which is again my point about the Karede quote--the significance of the Empire endorsing and rewarding people that excel at that method speaks to the aptitude of their generals. Which is then supported by the actions of theirs that we have seen, Yulan's plan, Miraj's adaption to traveling and so forth.

 

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That was the whole point behind the section on the German army of WW2. They were a highly professional armed force. They studied their successes and failures. They were technologically innovative. In short, they were very similar to the Seanchan in their approach to learning about warfare. Now... they had 18,000,000 men under arms over a ten year period that ended in 1945. Yet they only produced, maybe, 10 "Great Generals". That's 1,800,000 men per "Great General".

 

My belief is simply that GCs don't grow on trees. There isn't a school you can send them to.

 

By that logic the Seanchan would have by FAR more great generals than the westlands. The Seanchan continent is roughly three times the size of the Westlands, and is dramatically overpopulated. Beyond which their armies are much larger, with a much more constant state of much more complex warfare.

 

You are correct that GC's do not grow on trees, but you are wrong about there not being a school you can send them too, there are many such institutions in this world. The idea being that by stressing the students to try and act as a great general would one can pick out those with the capabilities to be a great general, and thus train them. The Seanchan's cultivation of the attributes that make a general great increase the chance of those with the abilities to truly employ those attributes to flourish, and their recognition of that increases the chance of those with such abilities gaining authority and being effective.

 

Yes, simply employing such methods will not make a commander into a great captain, but it will ensure those with the natural abilities to be a great captain surface. In the westlands those with such abilities first of all have to be noble to gain recognition, and second of all have to fight through the strong military traditions that the Randlanders cling too.

 

Seanchan have everything over the Randlanders. Experience, history, training, recognition, methodology.

 

And again im forced to put out that the Westlander Great Captains recieve so much recognition because they are an oddity. In Seanchan all are expected to do what they do, so those that excel it are simply good at what they are supposed to do, as opposed to exceptional in comparison to those that don't do it at all.

 

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Plus, as I've pointed out below, I think you're basing most of your comments on Wetlander generals on a very select group - Rand's Tairens and Cairheirns (sp). Given how status-obsessed they are, I don't feel that it's the best group to use.

 

Alright, the Andorans. They marshall roughly 200,000 of which the standing force of the Queen's Guard number, at best, 10,000. The other troops are farmers led by nobles, and those that are in charge of the armies are nobles.

 

Murandians--no standing army, all forces are vassels led by lords and ladies.

 

Domani--no standing army, Lords, ladies and their vassels.

 

Tenchico--They have three civil guards, none of which amount much in numbers. One would assume that at a more unified time their major forces would come from Lords and their vassels, though we have never witnessed that country in a time of peace so we don't know for sure.

 

Amadicia--a very pitiful civil guard. The Children of the Light, and Lords and Ladies with their vassels, and those even weaker than in other nations since those Lords and Ladies arn't allowed to muster forces or even build houses that could be fortified.

 

Altara--Lords, Ladies, their vassels and nothing else.

 

Illian--The Companions, an elite civil guard that numbers very few in actual numbers. Real forces represented once again by Lord, Ladies and their vassels.

 

Tar Valon--The Tower Guards seem by far better outfitted than the armies of other lands, though normally only kept at 25,000 and mostly working as peacekeepers.

 

Far Madding--uncertain.

 

The Borderlands--obviously a much higher organisation. Still cemented around the vassel system, but their vassels serve as soldiers. Much more freedom for commoners with skill to be given leadership.

 

 

 

Endgame, with the exceptions of the Borderlands and the Tower Guards, the nations have minor civil guards who are subsumed into the armies amassed by nobels in times of true war. Nobels with little to no experience of war, and who accrue to the Randlander traditional understanding of war--the glorious charge.

 

In some its more refined, in some its less, in none is it what you suggest.

 

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I disagree entirely. Innovation is at the heart of a modern armed force. It's the guy who comes up with a new idea, a new way of doing who wins. Who comes up with those ideas? The guys who are at the cutting edge ... the best generals.

 

We arn't dealing with modern armed forces, and your expectations seem far fetched. A great general does not have to come up with a completely new method of war in every battle--indeed none of the great generals in the text have done that. A great general takes in the realities of the battle, and the variables, and devises a new strategy that best employs all of his strengths and covers all of his weaknesses whilst utilizing those variables to the best effect.

 

That type of innovation i agree is the sign of a great general, and we witness it in the Seanchan. But your ideal that because the Seanchan havn't suddenly created new military groups as with say the Band of the Red Hand or the Black Tower, nor employed new weapons like the crossbow crank or travelling is simply flawed--the Seanchan organised themselves in that way a millenia ago. That the Randlanders are only just getting there is great, and a sign of brillians its true, that the Seanchan arn't is a sign simply that they'd already done it, and speaks no further to their skill.

 

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Where did you get that from? I don't recall seeing any reference to similarities.

 

Have you paid any attention to Seanchan military organisation? They organise their armed forces into banners just like the band, and the complexities of their leadership and organisation exceed that of the bands. Mat's forces comprise banners of horse, foot, crossbow and masonry, with leadership organised by devision and sequence of command. A companies commander is a Leiutenant, a commander of a sequence of companies a captain, a commander of a banner, a Banner-General, a commander of a sequence of banners is a Leiutenant-General. Thats as far as the Band goes because of their numbers.

 

Seanchan military is organised in the exact same way, companies into banners into armies. And they have divisions beyond that, the organisation of groundlings, fliers, captains of the Air, of the Green. These are not 'references to similarity', we've seen the organisation of both groups fully, their similarity established by their complexity, and the Seanchan by far exceed the Band there. Seriously, check out any scene involving the Seanchan military--their hierarchy is constantly mentioned and reinforced.

 

The Band has the right idea, but they are developing what the Seanchan have been employing for a millenia.

 

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Because it hasn't been needed. Nevertheless, we're seeing the use of Traveling to begin to overcome this problem. We're also going to see the mass mobilization of states to achieve logistical feats, e.g. the Seafolk, and the Tariens in their feeding of Cairhein.

 

I agree with the fact that it hasn't been needed by the Randlanders, but that doesn't change the reality of the Seanchan monolith. The Randlanders are only just discovering what the Seanchan have been practicing for centuries. I've no doubt they'll be able to mobilize for the logistical issue, but the Seanchan have all these practices in place.

 

The point being, remember, that the innovations that have impressed you about Mat, are things the seanchan already employ, thus showing that the lack of such obvious 'innovations' amongst the Seanchan is not a fact of their lack of ability, but rather simply because they've already done it.

 

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No, it does not. However, it does show an understanding of the need to adapt. Which I haven't seen from the Seanchan.

 

An understanding of the need to adapt--two things. One, the Seanchan don't actually need to adapt as much as the Randlanders do. They already employ a highly organised military. Their adaption only needs to be in using that military to address the realities of the current situations, which brings us to two, we have seen their 'understanding of the need to adapt'. Karede's quote shows this. The Seanchan are quite cogniscient that they need to adapt their strategies and abilities to fit the specific situations, and are doing so.

 

So again, I must say that i think your problem is that in comparison to the dramatic reorganising of military opperation we're witnessing amongst the Randlanders your concluding that a lack of such a dramatic adaption amongst the Seanchan suggests that they arn't as talented or adaptive--the problem being that they don't actually need to adapt to such a dramatic degree--the lessons and discoveries the Randlanders are making they've made long since. The only need to adapt those lessons to confront the current situation.

 

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It remains to be seen if the Seanchan set-up works in this new environment. They've done fine when encountering failed states or employing Blitzkreig. Beyond that, they're facing problems. Ituralde, Mat, and Bashere/Rand have proved that.

 

No, their set up works. It directly mirrors Roman military organisation which was the most efficient in history. Mat himself organised his band in almost the exact same manner, only to a less complex degree.

 

That Interulde, Mat and Bashere/Rand have conducted successful campeigns is a sign of their brilliance, not the Seanchan's lack thereof--and i would point out that Bashere and Rand's tactic would have failed due to Miraj's response had Rand not employed Callandor.

 

And the reality of their losses there does not mean they need to change their set up, they need merely plan how to employ it against these new tactics. Which they are doing.

 

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One general reacting well does not indicate that their entire officer corps is incredibly talented. Throughout the history of military conflict there have been examples of men performing well when they were expected to roll over and die.

 

Which is a turnback from you claiming that we've not seen any Seanchan general's talent to that degree.

 

But beyond which, your right, in a vacuum one general behaving well shows nothing. In combination with all my points, in the entirety of my argument, it serves as a real-life example that im right. The Seanchan military cultivates the skills of great generals thus increasing their ability to both be all that they can be, and gain the authority their abilities imply they should have.

 

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A weapon they never really faced apart from with a small force. So, what did they do? They reverted to type. It's practical and certainly ambitious, but clever? Not in my eyes.

 

Firstly, their concern over the Aes Sedai weapon is made very clear, and defined to be very great--so you attempt to imply that it should have been a minor concern is invalid--we know for a fact from the books that they reguarded it as a great concern.

 

Your second point is a part of your ongoing desire for glamorous change. They have not 'reverted to type' as you so wish to put it, they've employed a highly powerful element of their arsenal to cripple a dangerous enemy in a single blow. That's highly effective, highly innovative use of the weapons they had at hand.

 

I mean seriously, what did you expect, for them to go "The Aes Sedai have a powerful new weapon, and are a very great threat--we could use our to'raken to launch a successful surprise attack and remove them from the game, but that'd be boring, so instead we're looking to invent the nuclear bomb."

 

The Seanchan militaries tactics and forces have been forges over a thousand years of war. Their war machine is highly organised and highly effective. Employing it to its full effect is what a great general would do, and it is what Yulan did here.

 

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We have the Borderlands and the Blight. We also have the Aiel War. Not exactly small.

 

We've had "true" war but it's been in a constant form.

 

And the borderlanders are the most highly organised military force in Randland, and highly effective. To be fair they come no where near the Seanchan in terms of orginasational and military specialisation, but they are effective none the less.

 

But your point is flawed. The Westlands were invaded by the Aiel, and war ensued, but that does not mean they have experience with war. The organisation of their armies are incidental. A vassel system, and that was as true in the Aiel was as it is now. That they experienced that war does not change the realities of their organisational and traditional response.

 

The Seanchan have engaged in constant warfare for thousands of years, and came out of it because of the organisation of the armies under Luthair Paendrag.

 

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They have. In so doing, I believe they've done a much better job than the Seanchan. Period. After all, they've managed to hold off the advances of a unified empire. All that empire has taken is failed states and Amadicia. That's not a great return. - Especially if you see Arad Doman and Tarabon descending into Randlands version of Vietnam, or Iraq. Which, it could well do.

 

How can you create a comparison there? Rand managed to meet the Seanchan employing the unknown advantage of travelling, and the Seanchan adapted and would have won until the use of Callandor... each side employed its knowledge and attributes to full effect, and full brilliance. Creating from that a comparative analysis of skill is stupid--in the sense that Rand has brilliant people, but so do the Seanchan. It's like comparing a brilliant football player, and a brilliant soccer player to find who is the better sportsman.

 

Analyse each group for what they are. Rand's side has their brilliance, but the organisational efficiency of his groups is next to nothing. Even the Band, the closest thing to a truly developed military organisation doesn't come close. And whilst you try to dismiss the Seanchan's victories as victories over unstable states, they completely subjugated three nations in about a month, and asserted more or less total control. Rand's managed four in half a year, and maintained only bare control at that.

 

The Randlanders are not 'doing better' than the Seanchan. They are doing what they are doing, and the Seanchan are doing what they are doing. Looking for one side to be better than the other is more than counter-productive.

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Luckers is quite right. When the Hundred Years War tore apart Hawkwing's empire in a spasm of anarchic violence, the systems of centralized governments and organized military structures that had survived for more than 2,000 were destroyed. Human barbarity did what the Trolloc Wars could not. The only place in which it survived at all is in the Borderlands, and since we haven't really gotten an in depth look at how they organize a large military force we don't know to what degree. Given the scale and regularity of military action that they see I would suspect to a considerable degree, but that's just speculation.

 

It is ironic that the military organization that makes the Seanchan so formidable was likely brought to Seanchan by Luthair. Now what we know of Seanchan before his arrival is from biased sources, but from what we know it doesn't sound like the states there had stable governments. Since Luthair initially had no channelers with his force it was likely the superior organization and military tactics of the pre-hundred years war Westlands that enabled him to carve out a beachhead. 

 

I found Dyelin's horror at Elayne's attempts to build a standing army and strengthen the power of the central government very amusing, since it is something that Ishara would have certainly understood and approved of. Elayne is attempting to reform Andor in the mold of a Free Year Era nation and getting nothing but grief for her efforts.