The Three Oaths are... strange...

[Asmo]

If the Aes Sedai must swear Oaths, why not swear like this:

 

1) Never do anything that will aid the Shadow in any possible way.

 

2) Never lie unless in the utmost defense of your life or the life of your Warder or the life of another sister and / or her Warder or the White Tower.

 

3) Never use the One Power to cause permanent damage to a living being except Shadowspawn, and as a last resort against Darkfriends or when in the utmost defense of your life or the life of your Warder or the life of another sister and / or her Warder or the White Tower.

 

4) Never use the One Power to construct anything that can be used by other people as a weapon.

 

5) Never forswear the Oaths sworn on this Oath Rod, and never swear any other oaths.

 

That way, it's much more convenient for Aes Sedai if they have to lie to protect something important, such as Tower secrets, instead of constantly sidestepping the truth. It eliminates the Black Ajah within the Tower, since no full sister can be a Darkfriend. It ensures that the Oaths cannot be purged, and it also allows for the Power to be used as a weapon when defending the Tower itself.

 

Unless swearing two more Oaths means cutting another two hundred years off your life, of course.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The Black Ajah could get anywhere, even if the Oaths were changed. All it takes is for them someone to break an Aes Sedais Oaths with an Oath Rod (if they dont wana do it, Compel them into it) and then when they are Oath free, turn them to the Shadow against their will with 13 Myrdraals etc, get them to take the Dark Oaths, and send them back to the Tower. The Oaths will never stop the Black Ajah.

 

I agree that the current Oaths arent vey good though, although I suppose it depends on which side you look at it from. The Aes Sedai use the Oaths to their advantage. For example, an Aes Sedai cannot speak a word that is a lie, but that of course doesnt mean they cant hint at something. Any Aes Sedai could say "From now on, call me Wmjdgfkg" and that isnt a lie at all, because she didnt say "My name is Wmjdgfkg" and from then on she could say "I am called Wmjdgfkg."

[balefire]

Not to mention the fact that 5 oaths on the oath rod would make the average lifespan of an aes sedai 90-120 years. The full life potential of an unbound aes sedai is 600-700 years. With three oaths, reaching 300 is considered real lucky. With an already diminishing no of aes sedai and sparkers/learners with each year, they cant afford a small life span of 100 years, caz the tower would die pretty quickly if that was the case.

[Guest Dreadlord]

What they should do is write an equivalent of "commandments" and then swear one Oath on the Oath Rod-to abide by the commandments at all times. While that means only one Oath and a potentially longer life span, it also allows the Tower to change the commandments without retaking any Oaths, since the commandments werent specified yet I would have thought it would work as each Aes Sedai would have the commandments drilled into them, and the Oath Rod would take that into account I think.

 

Commandments:

1) To obey the Amyrlin at all times

2) To always act for the good of the Tower, within the guidelines set by the Amyrlin.

3) To never use the Power as a weapon unless against Shadowspawn, Darkfriends, or to defend an Aes Sedai, Warder or innocent.

 

There should be more I think, but I cant think of any more

[Luckers]

What they should do is write an equivalent of "commandments" and then swear one Oath on the Oath Rod-to abide by the commandments at all times. While that means only one Oath and a potentially longer life span, it also allows the Tower to change the commandments without retaking any Oaths, since the commandments werent specified yet I would have thought it would work as each Aes Sedai would have the commandments drilled into them, and the Oath Rod would take that into account I think.

 

Commandments:

1) To obey the Amyrlin at all times

2) To always act for the good of the Tower, within the guidelines set by the Amyrlin.

3) To never use the Power as a weapon unless against Shadowspawn, Darkfriends, or to defend an Aes Sedai, Warder or innocent.

 

There should be more I think, but I cant think of any more

 

That seems remarkably fascist to me. The Oaths were intended originally to placate the ignorate masses, not enslave the Aes Sedai. In particular the oaths about the Amyrlin and the Tower could lead to disaster... what if an Amyrlin went nuts, commanded them not to remove her, and then proceeded into tyrany. I'm thinking Elaida here. I've no doubt she'd make use of such things.

 

In terms of pure practicality, we don't actually know that increasing the number of oaths decreases the lifespan of those that swear them. We know that it takes more than one oath to give the Agelessness, but based on Semirhage's thoughts it only takes the one to decrease the lifespan. We have no information if that decrease is a matter of degrees.

 

 

[Asmo]

The Black Ajah could get anywhere, even if the Oaths were changed. All it takes is for them someone to break an Aes Sedais Oaths with an Oath Rod (if they dont wana do it, Compel them into it) and then when they are Oath free, turn them to the Shadow against their will with 13 Myrdraals etc, get them to take the Dark Oaths, and send them back to the Tower. The Oaths will never stop the Black Ajah.

 

Uh, that can't be done. Read the last Oath I wrote. Compelled or not, you simply can't disobey an Oath. If sisters were forced to through Compulsion, they would most likely die.

 

The commandments idea is very good, and if the Oath Rod does reduce lifespan according to the number of Oaths, it could be more than useful. Your suggestions for commandments, though... as Luckers pointed out, they are a sure-fire way for disaster.

 

Commandments I would suggest:

 

1) Never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn or om defense of your own life, the life of your Warder or a sister or her Warder, or in defense of the White Tower, or to prevent Darkfriends from escaping from justice.

2) Never foreswear the Oath to obey the commandments.

3) Accept the commandments as they are set by the Amyrlin Seat and the Hall of the Tower, and no other commandments.

4) Never lie, unless it is done solely to cause harm to the Shadow or in the last defense of your own life, the life of your Warder or a sister or her Warder, or in defense of the White Tower.

5) Submit all knowledge concerning the actions of the Shadow you acquire with all possible speed to the Hall of the Tower.

6) Don't make Power-wrought weapons.

7) Never do anything that has a possibility of aiding the Shadow, unless doing otherwise will do more harm to the Light.

8) Accord to the instructions of those ranked above you, unless you feel doing so may endanger the Tower, the lives of sisters or others.

9) Never use the Power in a way that might have disastrous consequences without first bringing the subject up with the Hall of the Tower and the Amyrlin Seat.

10) Never put the good of any one man or woman or nation above the good of the Tower and the Light.

 

There, the Ten Commandments of Aes Sedai =/.

[Luckers]

Frankly, I think any sort of commandments are wrong. Commandments lend themselves too easily to the concept that 'what is not forbidden is allowed'. If you need more proof of that simply look at the Aes Sedai--they lie constantly without qualm. Oh, technically what they say is truth, yet the nevertheless lie by ommision or misdirection. They have no concept of the value of truth.

 

Ultimately those that are nasty bastards will find their way around whatever commandments are placed, but those that are genuinely good people... for them you need only push good behaviour.

 

Laws are a good thing, commandments are foolishness that achieve nothing rather than confusing people.

[Hybrid]

I agree that the current Oaths arent vey good though, although I suppose it depends on which side you look at it from. The Aes Sedai use the Oaths to their advantage. For example, an Aes Sedai cannot speak a word that is a lie, but that of course doesnt mean they cant hint at something. Any Aes Sedai could say "From now on, call me Wmjdgfkg" and that isnt a lie at all, because she didnt say "My name is Wmjdgfkg" and from then on she could say "I am called Wmjdgfkg."

 

Pretty much as long as the Aes Sedai can convince herself she isn't lying, she can say anything. 

 

As for the Oaths, I believe that they are useless.  The Oaths themselves do nothing to change the Aes Sedai.  Aes Sedai are simply people.  There will still be Darkfriends, and there will still be ruthless people looking out for themselves, etc.  Really, the Oaths are a description of an ideal Aes Sedai, something that cannot exist in the world they live in.  The Oaths themselves are a good smokescreen for the Black Ajah, since once one is broken, it's usually too late.  In addition, the Oaths shorten the lifespan of Aes Sedai, causing a certain drop in Tower population and a probable drop in knowledge.  The Oath Rod should still be kept around, for purposes such as the Black Ajah investigation, but the Oaths should be revoked.

[Luckers]

I agree completely. Getting rid of those would go along way to making the Aes Sedai better people.

[Ndshacker]

These are the commandments.

 

1. I swear to do no violence to all save the shadowsworn, shadow spawn or in the last defense of my life, the life of my warder, or that of another initiate of the white tower.

 

2. I swear never to lie or mislead, weather it be through speech, written word, hints, hidden meanings or anything else which may catch somone unaware.

 

3. I swear never to make a weapon of war, save in the gravest wars against shadow.

 

4. I swear to never aid the shadow in any way shape or form.

 

5. I swear that I will never forsake these oaths.

 

6. I swear to put my life before that of the tower and the Amyrlin, and to never hurt them in any way.

 

This is the oath

I swear to follow the commandments of the guardians and Servants to the letter, with no omissions, or 

misuse of any loop holes I may find.

 

[Arath Faringal]

6. I swear to put my life before that of the tower and the Amyrlin, and to never hurt them in any way.

 

Shouldn't that be to put the Tower and Amyrlin first, and not yourself?

 

And the oath is still flawed.  What one person may see as 'misuse' of a loophole may seem perfectly reasonable to another.

[Luckers]

I'm not sure i understand this fascination with binding these women with oaths or commandments. In today's even the suggestion of half of those would be seen as a violation of a woman's freedom and rights.

[Arath Faringal]

I agree, the best way to clean up the Aes Sedai is to abolish the oaths.  But since it's Egwene's idea to keep them bound, they should have a better set of oaths.

[Luckers]

Who knows if that will last though. Egwene's sudden change of stance on the oaths reeks of compulsion, and at the same time she began have dreams of running from something she couldn't see, which is the exact same description that Morgase gives.

 

I know that could be a side effect of Aran'gar blocking her abilities as a Dreamer, though Egwene also describes dreams she simply can't remember.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Thinking about it, they should forsake all Oaths. Then they would be on a level with the Ashaman, would live longer, AND they could walk around without people recognising them instantly-the ageless look comes from the Oath Rods. I think Egwene was considering something about Oaths as well wasnt she?

[RAND AL THOR]

Well, AS generally want to be recognized easily so that they get the instantaneous respect that they've come to expect. So they may not like losing the ageless faces.

 

But I do believe that they'll stop the oaths. I don't think they are brainless enough to stick with the oaths when they cut your lifetime by 50%.

[Hybrid]

While we're on the subject of Oaths, I thought of an interesting scenario.  What if one took a male channeler and bound him to Oaths about not killing and not destroying anything, etc.  Would he then be prevented from going around and destroying the world? 

 

The real question then is, do the Oaths depend on the oathtaker's interpretation of them?  I believe it does.  If the oathtaker can convince themselves they are not violating the Oaths, the Oaths have no effect on that action.  For example, Aes Sedai can mislead people through implications.  But the intent to lie is still there (or at least the intent to not tell the truth).  So, in essence, that's a lie.  But the Aes Sedai did not state it straight out, so it doesn't violate the Oath as she interprets it.  In this case, the Oaths are subjective rather than objective and as such, an inherently flawed system.

[Asmo]

Well I'm not quite fond of the Aes Sedai "bonding themselves like criminals". But in the current time, perhaps it's neccessary. Perhaps whatever the current Aes Sedai did would not ease the public's fear and distrust over a reasonable period of time. Perhaps distrust within the Aes Sedai will increase as well, since it will be even harder to capture those who are Black Ajah (well, the Aes Sedai are distrustful towards each other anyway). The point is, they're doing it wrong. If they're going to bind themselves, they might as well do it in a way that at least ensures they keep to what they promise amd purges the Darkfriends from their ranks. Win.