The Horn of Valere

[cloglord]

Vandene states that the Horn must be found before TG, and I doubt Moiraine didn't know that. Moiraine had spent 20 years reading everything that's written about TG, so that she could guide the Dragon when the time came.

 

That the horn will be found just in time for TG, not that it must be found at some undetermined time before TG.  Since Moraine has no way to know when exactly TG will start when se makes her plans, she only knows that it will be found sometime in the next 30-40 years.

 

Moiraine knows that the Horn will be found, and that the Dragon Reborn would be a ta'veren, possibly the strongest ta'veren of that Age. I bet she was certain that the Dragon would get his hands on the Horn before TG. And if she was there to guide him, so would she. Of course she had planned what to with the Horn when it was found.

 

Again incorrect, she know that the horn must be found before TG, but the karaetheon cycle in no way relates who will find it or where.  There was no certainty that the Dragon would get his hands on it, or that if he did that it would happen early enough for Moraine to use it to any advantage other than the one in which it gets blown and the heroes come back to fight.  If Moraine got her hands on the horn in the next book, to what advantage would she use it at this point? 

 

And nowhere, in any prophecy we've seen so far, has any place been named specifically by their current name. If there's a prophecy of the Horn, it would predate Illian by centuries, if not millenia. If Illian was metioned in the Prophecies of the Horn, as a place the Horn must go to before TG, there would probably be hundreds of cities, and towns named Illian, in hope of becoming the city that gets a visit from the Horn.

 

That is the best argument I can come up with, against Illian being mentioned specifically in ANY Prophecies.

 

That would be true if we were talking about a mention of Illian in the Kareatheon cycle, which is a set of foretellings that occurred during the breaking and 2000 years before Illian came into existance.  However we know nothing about when the horn prophecies were made.  Elaida has been prophesying regularly over the course of the books, there is certainly nothing to indicate that the horn prophecy wasn't made or added to since Illian's inception.

 

Well, I'm definitely not getting back into this one, but it is good to see you're still around too.  And I'm glad you're looking forward to the feast!  Will you need anything with your crow?  Something to wash it down, perhaps? 

 

I think that it is nice that you, the guest of honor at the feast, would offer me the lowly waiter a seat at your table.  I must decline however as I dislike the taste of crow.  It is an aquired taste and I have never aquired it. I only tried it one in 1982 at the insistence of my mother.  ;)

[MikeRiley]

When she said the Horn must go to Illian she was being indirect and really saying "The Dragon must take the Horn to Illian." She already knew he would be the one to take it. This fits with the three oaths, it fits with the story. She couldn't say the Dragon had to take it because only Rand, she and Egwene knew what he was. She couldn't say Rand had to take it because the others would think "Why Rand?" So she said "The Horn must". Besides, she already knows by this point that she can't push Rand into doing anything and from the end of the book and into the beginning of the next she's ignoring him as a way to get him to go.

 

So her political reasons for stating why the Horn must go to Illian are her real reasons. There's no prophecy unless we invent one right here, and even then it isn't likely to make it into the final books.

[Charlz Guybon]

However there is a prophecy of the Horn as per page 65 TGH (paperback)  that we don't know much about.

 

Additionally at the end of TEotW, moments after discovering that she had the horn in her possession Moraine makes the flat out assertion that the horn "must" be taken to Illian.  That is an assertion that I don't see her making without more than cultural connections over the course of the last 1000 years, (which is all the longer that Illian has been around, not 3000.)

The Prophecy could be older if it references Dorelle Caromon, the original city on that site.

[cloglord]

Here lets try a different tack,...

 

to what purpose would RJ connect the Horn and Illian if he did not intend for the Horn to go to Illian?  It could have been connected to any other country or not connected to a country at all, so why did he decide to connect it to Illian?

[mb]

to what purpose would RJ connect the Horn and Illian if he did not intend for the Horn to go to Illian?

Maybe he wanted to foreshadow some future event.  When Moiraine proposes that Rand carry the Horn, she says that Illian people would follow someone that carries the Horn; perhaps Jordan wanted to foreshadow Rand's capture of Illian.

 

[CUBAREY]

to what purpose would RJ connect the Horn and Illian if he did not intend for the Horn to go to Illian?

 

It's misdirection a read herring. Moreover, a large part of WOT is believing that they know what something means (whether its about the prophecies or something else) but are confused by a limited viewpoint. An Aes Sedie interpreting the importance of the Horn and the fact that Illian is associated with the Horn (in as much as it always calls the Hunt for the Horn) as evidence that the Dragon Reborn is meant to lead the armies of Illian as one of his first steps toward the last battle. While in actuality the fact that Illian is the City and nation connected most with the Horn may be unrelated to the needs of prophecy or the turning of the Wheel.

[RobertAlexWillis]

to what purpose would RJ connect the Horn and Illian if he did not intend for the Horn to go to Illian?

 

LOL ... RJ didn't even connect them that strongly.  You don't hear anything about the Horn and Illian being linked after Mat blows it.  Thats book 2 of 12 if anyone is counting.

 

Whoever was the head of the Illian Chamber of Commerce and Tourism when they manufactured this idea should have been promoted to the Council of Nine immediately.  :)

[Shard]

I believe that would have been Lord Brend.

[CUBAREY]

I believe that would have been Lord Brend.

 

Nope all Hunts for the Horn had been set up by Illian. Moreover, Lord Brend would not have had time to take power in Illian when the Hunt was called this last time.

[mb]

I believe that would have been Lord Brend.

Lord Brend was Sammael's primary alias.  There is no indication of Sammael (under any alias) being around when Illian issued the Hunt.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I believe that would have been Lord Brend.

 

Actually, thatt would have been a joke, unless you actually read something about the Illian Chamber of Commerce and Tourism that I never saw ...

[CUBAREY]

I believe that would have been Lord Brend.

 

Actually, thatt would have been a joke, unless you actually read something about the Illian Chamber of Commerce and Tourism that I never saw ...

 

Frankly RobertAlexWillis the whole calling of the Horn strikes me as a tourist gimmick to bring in a lot of adventurous nobles and their wallets (or coin purses) to Illian.

[Shard]

The saying it was Lord Brend, that was a joke... Cause he's a Forsaken and would want the Horn of Valere so he'd set up this whole rumor/legend that the Horn HAD to come to Illian.. only he couldn't have... Anyways Joke = fail so nevermind.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Frankly RobertAlexWillis the whole calling of the Horn strikes me as a tourist gimmick to bring in a lot of adventurous nobles and their wallets (or coin purses) to Illian.

 

Yes, CUBAREY.  That would be the basis of my joke.

[CUBAREY]

Yes, CUBAREY.  That would be the basis of my joke.

 

Sorry I misread your last quote:

 

Quote

I believe that would have been Lord Brend.

 

Actually, thatt would have been a joke, unless you actually read something about the Illian Chamber of Commerce and Tourism that I never saw ...

 

as implying there was an undisclosed reason for the Calling of the Hunt. I was stating that I agree that Calling the Hunt was a way to get wellhealed nobles to come to Illian, whether the idea was gererated by the Council of Nine or the mythical Illian Chamber of Commerce (now if the Calling of the Hunt was called in the Capital of Altara then I would have do doubt that it was called by the Guild of Merchants :D).

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ok, well, at least we're all on the same page now.

[benr]

I figure the Horn is currently with the London Symphony Orchestra, and as soon as the first channeler appears we'll have one heck of a concert.

[CUBAREY]

I figure the Horn is currently with the London Symphony Orchestra, and as soon as the first channeler appears we'll have one heck of a concert.

 

Too obvious a hiding place. I think that Brandon rehid it with the Mourmon Tabernacle Choir. ;)

[seasnake]

Too obvious a hiding place. I think that Brandon rehid it with the Mourmon Tabernacle Choir. Wink

 

Okay, that was funny.

 

Where is the Horn and does it have to go to Illian?  I think it does, because even if the prophecy does not mean the Horn must go to Illian so many people think the Horn going to Illian is a sign of the last battle.  In other words, I think Mat will have to take the Horn to Illian in order to convince people that the Last Battle is truly upon them and they must band together and fight for the Dragon.  If you tried to get the armies to ride north before that, saying that the Last Battle was upon them, a lot of rulers would hesitate and say that can't be true because the Horn is not in Illian.

 

In short, the prophecies may not actually mean the Horn has to go to Illian before the Last Battle.  However, so many people believe the Horn will go to Illian before the Last Battle it will be hard to convince people the Last Battle is actually about to happen until it shows up there.  So Rand or Mat will arrange for the Horn to go to Illian and for the news to spread so that people will take his call to go north and fight seriously.

[MikeRiley]

Nobody believes the Horn going to Illian is a sign. The finding of the Horn itself is the sign. The only connection it has with Illian is that is where the Great Hunt begins.

[CUBAREY]

Nobody believes the Horn going to Illian is a sign. The finding of the Horn itself is the sign. The only connection it has with Illian is that is where the Great Hunt begins.

 

I would not say no one as the Illianers may have come to believe their own propoganda. However, they are already tied to Rand and would be very unlikely to to balk at his orders move north. Moreover, the stories surrounding the horn can not be seen in a vaccum, so many other propechies have been forefilled and other signs of the closeness of the battle are readily observable that the mere fact that the Horn does not go to Illian would not lead rulers to doubt that the last battle was at hand.

[Majsju]

With ghosts having gotten so common that people are used to them, corridors coming and going as they want, entire cities appearing and disappearing, and numerous other funnies, I doubt there are many people left in need of convincing that Tarmon Gaidon is coming.

[seasnake]

Common people maybe, but I think many rulers are still so reluctant to follow the Dragon Reborn and they want an excuse to ignore his call to fight.  If the common conception is that the Horn of Valere must go to Illian in some way before the end, then that is a great excuse to say "See, if he were right and the end really IS nigh, why has the horn of Valere not gone to Illian as twas prophesied?"  People love reasons to not do what they should do.

[CUBAREY]

Common people maybe, but I think many rulers are still so reluctant to follow the Dragon Reborn and they want an excuse to ignore his call to fight.  If the common conception is that the Horn of Valere must go to Illian in some way before the end, then that is a great excuse to say "See, if he were right and the end really IS nigh, why has the horn of Valere not gone to Illian as twas prophesied?"  People love reasons to not do what they should do.

 

What Rulers? The Borderland Kings that are looking for Rand so he can go to the borderlands? Elayne? He controls Cairhern, Tear and Illian and will soon be in Arad Domain. The Ail are behind him. Perrin has two sitting queens with him The Seanchen basicly control everything else and if a truce can be reached with Tuon they will not hesitate to fight in the last battle. So who exactly are you worried about.

[MikeRiley]

In their defense, if I was a ruler in Randland and didn't have the knowledge you get from reading the books, I would be reluctant to side with the Dragon as well. He murders rulers, he lets the savage Aiel loot, his dragonsworn put countries in anarchy. Knowing this and knowing the Last Battle is coming, I would be fortifying my own nation and preparing for war without somebody who brings destruction with him everywhere he goes.