Sammael

[schizm]

I don't get here as often as i'd like to, but there is something bothering me. I think in AMOL we will find that Sammael is alive and still moving about in secret from everyone. I don't remember what book right now, but one of the Forsaken, don't remember which one talks about some of Sammael's commands still being seen to.

 

Then in re-reading WH, I came across the scene where Luc steps out of the dream and kills two people sleeping in a bed. When he goes back and becomes Isam, he sees his patron of the moment. He reports to him that it wasn't Rand or Min. He couldn't see who it was because of a disguise made with the power. The Patron tells him not to tell anyone about this.

 

I think it was Sammael trying to get some revenge on Rand, without anyone knowing he was around still. I think in the end Sammael will play a huge role in the last battle. I think he's staying low because he knows Moridin tried to help Rand in Aridhol, so he's biding his time until he can step up to kill off Moridin to become Nae'blis.

[Thorum]

Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast

 

From CNN chat transcript, 12 December 2000

 

One of the other things RJ gave a clear answer on (with Demandred is not Taim), but keeps coming up

[Sabio]

I refuse to believe it.  I mean if Mashadar killed Sammael, not one scream, nothing????  Everything else killed or touched but it screamed. Why the mystery about the death?  RJ is toying with us I know it. 

[Jehaine]

Well... Not all bad guys have to die screaming "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" or anything else relating to a loud and violent death. The only other person in the area was Rand, and he was distracted at the time and forced to flee to prevent being swallowed as well. Not much time for an epic 'fall into the lava' type death, so to speak.

[Roxinos]

RJ is toying with us I know it.

 

Any time he has ever toyed with us, he's either said "RAFO" or said something vague.

 

Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast

 

That is not vague at all. That is simple point of fact. If you're saying he's toying with us, then you're saying that RJ lied just so that he can have a surprise later in the book. Any time in which an answer would give away something that he didn't want to, one way or the other, he would say RAFO.

[schizm]

Well then who's seeing that Sammaels orders are still carried out then? Not to mention, who is the guy that told Luc/Isam to keep secret that he tried to kill Rand?

[Roxinos]

I'm not proficient enough in the series to actually answer those questions off of the top of my head.

 

If they have not been answered in the books, then RAFO is all I can say.

[Dakeyras]

Well then who's seeing that Sammaels orders are still carried out then? Not to mention, who is the guy that told Luc/Isam to keep secret that he tried to kill Rand?

 

No one's seeing that Sammaels orders are carried out. Sammaels dead, he hasn't got any orders to carry out. There is, however, a theory that Taim is a new Chosen and he was the one who impersonated Sammael. For a concrete answer, RAFO.

[Avery]

Not to mention, who is the guy that told Luc/Isam to keep secret that he tried to kill Rand?

 

That's unknown, but the question isn't evidence that Sammael is alive.

[Sabio]

There is, however, a theory that Taim is a new Chosen and he was the one who impersonated Sammael. For a concrete answer, RAFO

 

That wouldn't make sense, doubt Taim has been made choosen and have the abiltiy to impersonate Sammael.  Plus why wouldn't Sammael be given a second chance in another body?  Did he do anything worse then Lanfear?  Every other forsaken who died (except balefire) has been given a new body and as pointed out even the forsaken who did stuff would of gotten them killed before haven't been killed since they can't be replaced in this time. Doubt the DO would consider Sammael being replaced as a choosen by Taim an equal change.

 

 

Still think the death was blahhh and made no sense.  Just a touch of it is agonyizing yet he made no sound (not saying should of been a dramatic DO HELP ME or I SHALL RETURN)but not even a GAHH???? He goes there seemingly without taking the fog into account?  Thats why part of me still hopes RJ was hiding something because in my mind this was not one of RJ's best chapters.  Seemed bit rushed to me.

[Roxinos]

He might have made a sound. We were in Rand's perspective, and I think he was a bit distracted. But I don't remember well enough to give details on the scene.

 

However, I doubt Sammael could be resurrected. I don't think that Mashadar just kills you, I think it eats your soul as well. So he's kind of out of reach for the Great Lord.

 

But that's supposition.

[Majsju]

And why would the DO not consider raising Taim to the level of Chosen?

1. The DO is starting to run out of Chosen. Be'lal, Rahvin, Asmo, Sammael and most likely Aginor are gone forever. Lanfear and Moghedien are basically Ishamaels pets. Those who remain are still occupied bickering among eachother.

 

2. Taim gathered and trained 100 male channelers, and they are positioned right under Rands nose. That is quite a bit more than several of the old Chosen has accomplished.

 

3. It is quite possible that Taim has been trained by a Chosen. That in combination with his strength in the power makes him a quite powerful player in his own right.

[Thorum]

3. It is quite possible that Taim has been trained by a Chosen. That in combination with his strength in the power makes him a quite powerful player in his own right.

 

I don't think he was trained by a Chosen. Don't forget they weren't free yet (except Ishy, but he was busy taunting Perrin, Mat, and Rand; and Aginor & Balthamel, but they were busy being VERY old) when Taim learned all his things. I don't have the impression he got any stronger after that... He could have learned some, but most of it, he already learned on his own.

 

However, I DO think Taim will become a Chosen.

[Sabio]

Why does he need more?  The removing the weak is pretty much his philosphy.  DO is probably not happy with the amount of dead Forsaken but sure it takes more then training Ash'aman to become a Forsaken.  Besides if Taim was a forsaken why the need to put Osan'gar in the tower?  No doubt it was he who started training Taim and imo the one who most likely turned Taim to the shadow.  But why would he not be in any of the Forskaen meetings?  Why has none of the Forsaken hinted at a new choosen?  Taim is hardly super uber, as seen by his poor attempt to have Rand assassinated.

[Majsju]

I don't think he was trained by a Chosen. Don't forget they weren't free yet (except Ishy, but he was busy taunting Perrin, Mat, and Rand; and Aginor & Balthamel, but they were busy being VERY old) when Taim learned all his things. I don't have the impression he got any stronger after that... He could have learned some, but most of it, he already learned on his own.

 

Thing is, we do not know exactly when Ishy was released. We know he was around shortly after Rands birth, when he kills Jarna Malari and has his little fun with Farstrider. After that we here nothing of him until Fain says that Ba'alzamon was the one who chose him to be the DOs hound. That was close to three years before Winternight. So there is definitly a possibility that Ishy trained Taim.

 

Why does he need more?  The removing the weak is pretty much his philosphy.  DO is probably not happy with the amount of dead Forsaken but sure it takes more then training Ash'aman to become a Forsaken.  Besides if Taim was a forsaken why the need to put Osan'gar in the tower?  No doubt it was he who started training Taim and imo the one who most likely turned Taim to the shadow.  But why would he not be in any of the Forskaen meetings?  Why has none of the Forsaken hinted at a new choosen?  Taim is hardly super uber, as seen by his poor attempt to have Rand assassinated.

 

Removing the weak was more a philosophy during the AOL, when the DO had thousands of Chosen to play with. Now, there were 13 from the beginning, and that number is decreasing. And a pretty good sign that removing the weak is not as high on the list anymore is the recycling of Lanfear, Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel. As well as allowing Moghedien and Mesaana to live despite having screwed up royally.

 

As for why Taim is not revealed to the others, not sharing information is a pretty heavy theme throughout the books, and the DO is probably the least trusting character of them all. Look at Moridin and Cyndane, their true identities have still not been officially revealed, even though all the forsaken have more or less figured out at least that Moridin is Ishamael.

And in the case of taim, the need for secrecy might also have to do with wanting to keep him alive for a bit longer, as none of the forsaken would really appreciate getting competition from a third Age barbarian.

[Thorum]

Indeed, I forgot he already slowed aging before he proclaimed himself.

 

In the encyclopaedia, it says he looks 35, which means he's been channeling for at least 10-15 years.

 

But even then: would Ba'alzamel wait that long to unleash him? There were 3 false dragons in the year leading up to Winternight: why not ensure 2 at once? That'd probably have served the DO's purpose better than waiting till Logain is caught.

 

Even supposing Ishy knew the end of the age was near: why not make a victory even easier by letting Taim destroy the northeast while Logain did the same in the south? He would have been Naeblis even before any of the rest was freed?

[Luckers]

Indeed, if Ishy was physically constant enough to force jarna Milari--an Aes Sedai of not inconsiderable skill and ability--into a ter'angreal, he would have been able to train Taim. Furthermore we know he did so before, during the Trolloc Wars.

 

That wouldn't make sense, doubt Taim has been made choosen and have the abiltiy to impersonate Sammael.  Plus why wouldn't Sammael be given a second chance in another body?  Did he do anything worse then Lanfear?  Every other forsaken who died (except balefire) has been given a new body and as pointed out even the forsaken who did stuff would of gotten them killed before haven't been killed since they can't be replaced in this time. Doubt the DO would consider Sammael being replaced as a choosen by Taim an equal change.

 

Firstly, based on the time delay of other recyclings its highly unlikely that the Dark One could have recycled Sammael in that timeframe.

 

Secondly, Sammael was consumed by Mashadar, which was created by the souls of the citizens of Aridhol--suggestively it consumes souls, and nothing suggests that the Dark One would be able to save Sammaels soul from that fate.

 

Thirdly, even if Sammael were recycled he would not look like Sammael, and thus would have been disguising himself with an Illusion had he been the one to command the assualt on the manor--given Sammael hated his own appearence i rather doubt that is the case.

 

Finally, Taim was almost certainly trained by one of the Forsaken (he states that the method of testing for the ability can do damage if done too strongly, yet also states that he only tested five men, none of which were adversely effected. The first statement shows knowledge he shouldn't have unless he were trained by someone in the know). With that training, combined with his current success, and in the absense of the Dark One having any one else to turn to, yet being in need of more Chosen, then he makes sense as a potential Chosen.

 

Well then who's seeing that Sammaels orders are still carried out then? Not to mention, who is the guy that told Luc/Isam to keep secret that he tried to kill Rand?

 

No one has been seeing Sammael's orders carried out. Someone was seeing that Ishamael's orders were carried out after he died (and before Moridin was recycled) though we don't know who--probably Shaidar Haren, or a previous version of him.

 

Indeed, I forgot he already slowed aging before he proclaimed himself.

 

Actually, he probably hasn't slowed yet--or is only just now slowing. Men don't slow until their late twenties, and according to RJ Taim is in his late twenties.

 

In the encyclopaedia, it says he looks 35, which means he's been channeling for at least 10-15 years.

 

The encyclopaedia's wrong. Taim is in his late twenties--RJ explained this discrepency, saying that Taim, due to the stress and hardship of running from Bashere looked older to Rand when he first appeared, but that he is in his late twenties.

 

 

[Thorum]

You've effectively used up all my arguments :D

[Luckers]

By the way, since i think it's not clear in my post, i wasn't saying that Taim might not have been channeling for ten to fifteen years--by nature if he sparked he might have sparked as young as eighteen, which means that he could have naturally have been channeling for ten years, and if Ishamael was actively having darkfriends tested for the ability to channel, as seems likely and is possibly infered in Liandrin's thoughts about her approach to the Tower, then he might have been forcibly sparked and could have been channeling as much as twenty years (as we know its possible to spark a ten year old--though thats seems unlikely for a darkfriend, lol).

[Sabio]

Finally, Taim was almost certainly trained by one of the Forsaken (he states that the method of testing for the ability can do damage if done too strongly, yet also states that he only tested five men, none of which were adversely effected. The first statement shows knowledge he shouldn't have unless he were trained by someone in the know). With that training, combined with his current success, and in the absense of the Dark One having any one else to turn to, yet being in need of more Chosen, then he makes sense as a potential Chosen.

 

Who knows how Taim learned that, just like self trained Aes Sedai (wilders) they all learn to do certain things on their own and have 1 or 2 skills they know how to do in secret.  Then testing Taim and having him run about calling himself the dragon reborn seems hardly like an Ishy plan since it was almost assured he was going to get captured and drug off to the tower.  A big risk of him getting gentled.  Not to mention him doing that is hardly a good way for him to testing men for the DO as hard to test as armies and Aes Sedai are after you.  Again though if Taim was a Chosen why put OSan'gar in the black tower?  2 forsaken in one place? 

 

 

[Luckers]

Who knows how Taim learned that, just like self trained Aes Sedai (wilders) they all learn to do certain things on their own and have 1 or 2 skills they know how to do in secret. 

 

We are speaking of specific knowledge here, not a Talent. Taim tells Rand that using too much strength in testing a man for the ability to channel can be dangerous to the man, yet by his own statement he only tested five men, none of which were adversely effected. We are not questioning how he discovered the method, we are questioning how he knew such detailed information about that method.

 

Then testing Taim and having him run about calling himself the dragon reborn seems hardly like an Ishy plan since it was almost assured he was going to get captured and drug off to the tower.  A big risk of him getting gentled.  Not to mention him doing that is hardly a good way for him to testing men for the DO as hard to test as armies and Aes Sedai are after you.

 

We know from Taim's own comments that his gathering and training men occured prior to him declaring himself Dragon. Beyond which there were almost certainly other men--and women--out there gathering and training channelers for Ishamael. Having Taim announce himself Dragon served a different purpose, one of spreading chaos and darkening the name of the Dragon. And you are right, there is a big risk of him getting captured and gentled--i just doubt that mattered much to Ishamael.

 

  Again though if Taim was a Chosen why put OSan'gar in the black tower?  2 forsaken in one place? 

 

Taim was not yet Chosen, that happened recently--and without the knowledge of the other Chosen. Osen'gar was either dead, or with Rand before Taim became Chosen.

[Hybrid]

Thirdly, even if Sammael were recycled he would not look like Sammael, and thus would have been disguising himself with an Illusion had he been the one to command the assualt on the manor--given Sammael hated his own appearence i rather doubt that is the case.

Unfortunately, Sammael is most likely gone.  Too bad, we missed a great chance for some more Dark humor.  Sammael reincarnated...in the body of a midget.

 

[Luckers]

Hahaha. I would have gone for the ugly-tall myself. You know, sort of seven foot but nothing but skin and bones.

 

Ironies a bitch.