A Warder without his Aes Sedai

[bloodandashes]

Okay, so I know the WoT books mention time and time again that if a Warder's Aes Sedai dies, not only does he feel it but he himself dies in a futile effort to avenge the Aes Sedai's death. Basically, he goes kamikaze and gets himself killed.

 

So there's probably no possibility at all of what I'm suggesting ever actually coming up in the WoT books, or anywhere in Randland for that matter (if Randland can be said to have an existence separate to Mr Jordan's imagination...another topic, another debate, another time) but...

 

In feudal Japan (so going back a few centuries now), they had the warrior caste, the Samurai, and when a Samurai lost his master, he became Ronin, or 'wave man'. Anyone considered what would happen if a Warder became Ronin?

 

It's not entirely impossible, near as I can tell. Samurai became Ronin in feudal Japan for various reasons: their master became destitute and could no longer afford to keep Samurai, their master died, in battle or otherwise, or the Samurai could fall from his master's favour. It's not unbelievable that something similar could happen to a Warder.

 

Do any of the WoT books say what happens to a Warder if his Aes Sedai is stilled? I'm assuming the bond would be broken, since the bond uses the One Power and all, but what happens beyond that? I'm not talking about when the White Tower stills Aes Sedai for serious infringements against White Tower law, I'm more interested in when the ability is just burned out of them, like when Rand breaks out of the chest at Dumai's Wells. What if an Aes Sedai tires of her Warder, or just decides for her own reasons that she doesn't want him around any more? If Moiraine was able to pass Lan's bond on to another Aes Sedai, surely it's possible to break the bond? Or is breaking the bond a sort of automatic death sentence for the Warder?

 

This post has turned out to be a lot longer than I'd planned, but I think it's an interesting subject. Any ideas? Or has Mr Jordan already dealt with this topic in one of the books and I either missed it or can't recall?

[KellySedai]

Well, its not so far-fetched considering that Elyas kinda became "Ronin" from his Aes Sedai.

 

I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're talking about, but it sounds similar. :D

[Guest Majsju]

Aes Sedai can release their Warders, and by doing so prevent them from going crazy when the Aes Sedai dies.

[Hugh]

I think the "Warder going Kamikaze" is only really Lan, as he has his own fight with the Blight which he and Morain mention quite a few times in the first few books....

 

I don't remember what happens, and I haven't got that far in my re-read yet, but I'm pretty sure there is a bit in one of the books (I'm guessing either The Shadow Rising (which I'm at the beginning of at the moment) or The Fires of Heaven) where an Aes Sedai is stilled and we see them and their Warder.... I can't remember the details, though....

 

And as for going off and doing their own thing.... I'd imagine that the breaking of the bond would be a painful moment, but not a permanent loss (like stilling) - if they are still dedicated to the cause, they might end up going back to Tar Valon to see how they could help, or even, if times were desperate, get bonded to another.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think the "Warder going Kamikaze" is only really Lan' date=' as he has his own fight with the Blight which he and Morain mention quite a few times in the first few books....

 

I don't remember what happens, and I haven't got that far in my re-read yet, but I'm pretty sure there is a bit in one of the books (I'm guessing either The Shadow Rising (which I'm at the beginning of at the moment) or The Fires of Heaven) where an Aes Sedai is stilled and we see them and their Warder.... I can't remember the details, though....

 

And as for going off and doing their own thing.... I'd imagine that the breaking of the bond would be a painful moment, but not a permanent loss (like stilling) - if they are still dedicated to the cause, they might end up going back to Tar Valon to see how they could help, or even, if times were desperate, get bonded to another.[/quote']

 

I can't find the passage right now, but if I rememeber right, we're told that when Rand stilled the three Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells, one of the Warders actually dropped dead from the shock.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Guest Majsju]

Ah, regarding the release of a Warder...

 

Also, Aes Sedai can release a Warder from the bond. In fact, I have said that most Aes Sedai who have time to realize that they are dying will release any Warders they have in order to spare them the effects. I’m pretty certain I have said that publicly, by the way.

 

Blog entry from december.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Here's a thought...

 

If an Aes Sedai is Severed, and the Warder manages to survive long enough, will healing of the Severance re-establish the bond?

 

We know from Dumai's Wells, that the Severing and the death of an Aes Sedai have similar effects on the Warder. We know from Siuan that Stilling buffers an Aes Sedai from her Warder's death. From Suian we also know that healing of Severing will cause the Aes Sedai to suffer the normal effect of her Warder's death. Had Suian's warder not been murdered, and if he survived long enough, would the bond itself have been re-established?

[loosehead]

Here's a thought...

 

If an Aes Sedai is Severed' date=' and the Warder manages to survive long enough, will healing of the Severance re-establish the bond?

 

We know from Dumai's Wells, that the Severing and the death of an Aes Sedai have similar effects on the Warder. We know from Siuan that Stilling buffers an Aes Sedai from her Warder's death. From Suian we also know that healing of Severing will cause the Aes Sedai to suffer the normal effect of her Warder's death. Had Suian's warder not been murdered, and if he survived long enough, would the bond itself have been re-established?[/quote']

 

heres another thought... maybe it is dependant on time etc?

 

think about it this way...

 

when an AS ties off a gateway then eventually it just disapates...

 

imagine that the warder bond is similar to this and that by severing the bond becomes tied off or becomes unstable

 

then over time the bond would become unravelled

 

then maybe this would create one of two things

 

1st just the man returns to himself pre warder

 

2nd (controversial) something similar to what Elayne did when unraveling the weave in book 8

 

just a thought

[dagwall]

I don't think being healed after being stilled would re-establish a warder bond. I'd think it'd be like the three oath, those who were stilled were no longer held by the three oaths. Suian might not have felt the loss of her warder until she did simply because she was so focuses on her goals to avoid just curling up to die. Once she was healed and could afford to really relax and think of something else then she felt the loss of her warder.

 

But who knows...

[BenTGaidin]

I've always understood it that Warders who lose their Aes Sedai _generally_ either die of shock outright, or go off and do something suicidally crazy to "avenge" her death, or become terminally depressed to the point of starving to death, if something (some other Aes Sedai bonding them, which even then isn't always successful, remember) isn't done. Lan is so focused on the Shadow and the Blight that Moiraine pretty much knows what he'd do when the bond breaks, but it's not simply him that would react that way.

 

I've also understood it that, if they _don't_ end up suicidal by one means or another, they stave it off by becoming focused on some _other_ important goal, becoming obsessed with that instead. (Imagine the most rabid Whitecloak... now imagine a Warder even _more_ scarily focused than that. *grins*)

 

So if there's a chance, Aes Sedai will want to release their Warders from the bond before it has a chance to snap... Not that they're likely to foresee an accident like stilling themselves.

[Inara]

true,but it is unlikely that the tower would still someone with a warder still bonded, if he was released, then stilling is ex-AS wouldnt affect him.

i believe siuan's case is like a delayed shock, the stilling was the greater shock and it left a hole big enough to fully eclipse the one andric left. when she was healed the smaler hole was thrown into sharp relief and thus the sudden crying.

abrupt severence of the bond causes the domnant partner months of uncontrollable grief (possibly more) and the submissive partner gets away with nothing less than a deathwish.

rand's bond with the girls is a mix of the first sister bond and the warder bond, what will happen to the girls when he dies?

[UrsulaLV]

I seem to remember someone, somewhere, I think the Tower, saying that part of the punishment of Stilling is having to release the Warder from his Bond. It may have been from a novice lecture, I can't really pin it down. Siuan was Stilled without trial, and Andric was probably killed trying to stop them from taking her in the first place. So some of that doesn't apply.

 

But, the natural grief of an old friend being killed was already with her, but overshadowed by the Stilling. Being Healed of the Stilling re-activates the AS side if the bond, I think, and the full weight of his death fell on her.

 

I am re-reading the whole series, and watching for just this sort of stuff.

 

Cheers,

[Guest cwestervelt]

I seem to remember someone' date=' somewhere, I think the Tower, saying that part of the punishment of Stilling is having to release the Warder from his Bond. It may have been from a novice lecture, I can't really pin it down. Siuan was Stilled without trial, and Andric was probably killed trying to stop them from taking her in the first place. So some of that doesn't apply.

 

But, the natural grief of an old friend being killed was already with her, but overshadowed by the Stilling. Being Healed of the Stilling re-activates the AS side if the bond, I think, and the full weight of his death fell on her.

 

I am re-reading the whole series, and watching for just this sort of stuff.

 

Cheers,[/quote']

 

Technically, Suian was Stilled after a trial in the Hall. It was just a loaded jury and only Elaida's cronies were notified of the Sitting. The trial was a sham, but enough to satisfy Tower Law.

[walkerhound]

Dose the warder madness always involve Kamikaze revenge? The actions of jam (or is it jem?) and the other warder's after the dark ajha ambush seam to support it, but i had the impression up till that point that depression was the only "forced" consequence.

 

By forced i'm talking about something imposed on the warder by the nature of the weave. He may or may not like his as sedai but if she dies he will be sent into a depressions in some way's similar to a woman that has been stilled.

 

example: the warder that is hunting his assedai, because he believes her to be a murder and suspects she is black ajha. If he finds and kills her he will still have to deal with the mental fall out. Maybe he will just curl up and die from depression (lost the will to live) or start to take crazy chances till he's killed in battle. Also the black ajha assedai doesn’t want to kill him if only to spare her self the month's of tears (she doesn’t care for him and has no real problem with killing people to suite her end's)

 

so is a crazy suicide charge against the closets person place or thing that seams to be the cause of the assedai's death a part of the weave that the warder has no control over. or is it just something a lot of warder's do when the situation come's up?

[Llewin]

Aes Sedai can release their Warders' date=' and by doing so prevent them from going crazy when the Aes Sedai dies.[/quote']

 

I've seen lots of debate on this. Can you give a quote as evidence for this, because every quote I've seen given directly by an Aes Sedai skirts that issue completely.

[Guest Majsju]

Look at the second post I made...

[Llewin]

Gotcha! Thanks :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

In most cases, Aes Sedai appear to outlive their Warders. Then, as they get older like Cadsuane, they generally don't bother taking another. Maybe they are concerned that heart attack or stroke will prevent them from being able to release them. Within the books, the closest that I can think of any Aes Sedai actaully coming to mentioning releasing a Warder was in The Great Hunt Chapter 22 "Watchers".

 

Moiraine is thinking about Lan and how he is getting affected by Nynaeve...

 

Moiraine wondered when he would ask her to release him from his bond. And what she would do when he did.