Who else is mad at Faile

[dagwall]

Okay Nyn phsyically kicked Mat in the butt so hard that he limped for most of the day because she was all pissed off about his fox head medallion. And then refused to appologise for it. Which did cause some great amusement that she kept running away from him and hiding for a week or more thinking he would try and get her back. He'd completely moved on from that in a day or so and is trying to find her just to talk to her and she keeps running away. You can't possibly think she was justified in kicking the hell out of his butt because she couldn't vent her frustration out on him with the one power as she wanted to????

 

I'm not saying they are completely wrong about him and that he is always in the right and they are always in the wrong. But they were not fair with him. Elyane seems to be seeing that a small bit later that she may have been a little wrong about Mat. Nyn will NEVER admit that, I don't even think she'd admit it to herself. That does make her bitchy. I love her for it, makes her a much more interesting read. And more often than not she does have others best interests at heart. But she really doesn't always know what truely is best for everyone.

 

hehe I think we've gotten a little off topic now though. We're supposed to be defending Faile. She didn't cheat, and the impression I got from Perrin when he did get her back is that he was willing to forgive her for anything she might have done while captive. When she smelled her guilt he thought that whatever she felt guilty about didn't matter, he was just happy to have her back.

[vixen]

Nyneve-The women in these books are not bitchy

 

Faile, elayne and the whole gang does seem to be bitchy from time to time, it not just the women,men seem to have an attitude problem aswell.

 

Like Rand for example,he is a TOTAL DRAMA B!TCH!

The only character tat doesn't seem to have a b1tchy attitude is MAT!!!!

 

Faile is a cool lassie and for u b!tchy readers :) she never slept wit Rolan!!!!

[Inara]

for the record, mat spends the ENTIRE series bitching about fate dumping him in the middle of things.

and for the poster on the previous page (cant remember the name..sorry) mat DOES love tuon, and i think she is starting to fall for him too, and with her attitude, that will be a fun read.

everybody is always bitching about something, and when i say everybody, i mean every character, not just the main ones...everyone has their issues and their winges.

 

about faile, i agree with red states on ONE point, saldea is not a female dominant society, but they take pride in their strong women, and look down on the milksops of the south. faile had a good teacher in her mother and expects perrin to behave like her father.all she is doing is playing out what she has always seen as her role in a marriage, ie, what she was brought up to believe eg:"spying is a wife's work". a no-brainer.

i love her, and perrin, AND berelain and their dynamic and i am very annoyed perrin killed roland before he knew who he was.

[Kadere]

They're ALL stubborn, that's why they're fun characters to read, but none of them are bitches.

[mightisright]

I agree - they are not bitches. You might think Nynaeve was if you just met her but even she is alright if you weigh her grumpy talk against her actions. Yes, the men can be 'bitchy' too but Mat has been alright since FOH, Rand was fairly positive before ACOS, and Perrin...well Perrin has never really bitched just brooded which can be annoying in its own right.

 

they (Saldeans) take pride in their strong women, and look down on the milksops of the south. faile had a good teacher in her mother and expects perrin to behave like her father.all she is doing is playing out what she has always seen as her role in a marriage, ie, what she was brought up to believe eg:"spying is a wife's work". a no-brainer.

 

I agree with this. Although they shouldn't look down on the women in the South though, look at the Altarans ect... RJ hasn't written in a 'milksop' woman yet. Amathera is the closest thing to it and she was broken by the seanchan.

 

What I do consider 'bitchy' is when the women treat the men like children. The men are over protective sometimes but do not ever treat the women like children. Trying to protect someone because you love them is not the same as leaving them out of the decision because you consider them generally incompetent.

[Andrew B.]

I think rand can be a little dramatic, cause I don't care, and don't blame him because he knows he is ganna die in the last battle, so cut him some slack, for all he knows, like he said after the trollroc attack in book 11 the last battle may have already started, though we all know that isn't true.

[Inara]

ok, so there are no milksop characters, i was using the word to heighten the contrast.

and yes, they are none of them bitches, except maybe Elaida and Alviarin, but they do like to bitch, and yes this is exactly why it is such a good read

 

all in all, i am in an agreeable mood and am therefore agreeing with everything :roll:

[Llewin]

I think some really good points about Faile have been made here...

 

I think what it comes down to is that RJ is not ONLY writing a story about the events leading up to a cataclysmic battle... He is also writing a story of the cultures of the world... In doing so he has explicitely said that all of those cultures are going to be effected in some way by the fact that MEN "broke the world" at the end of the Third Age.

 

That act caused men in general to be less trusted and allowed women to have more power... across the board...

 

Now add that in to the fact that every culture develops on its own, and with its own idiosyncracies... I dont think it is fair to apply personal morals or ethics to each of these cultures or the people from these cultures since RJ is already showing the jarring differences they each have with eachother, let alone the moral an ethic backbone of the modern "First World" society today...

 

Accept that (for better or worse) some of these people groups have very different views on good/bad right/wrong and some of them, almost universally share some views on good/bad right/wrong... but the only ones they seem to ALL share have to do directly with the influence of the Dark One, either directly or through Dark Friends or Creatures of the Dark, etc.

 

The rest of it is all shades of grey...another major theme in RJs work... Absolute Evil and Absolute Good do exist...thank God for a genre where that's still acceptable... but they co-exist in a world where most things are still some shade of grey.

[Leafburner]

Andrew B.

 

Faile did not cheat on Perrin. Where did you come up with that little gem, hey? It helps your argument, sure. but it's a shame it's a load of BS!

 

Faile is fine. I can't believe she is the focus of so much ridicule. We've had posters pissed that she didn't show enough emotion toward Rolan after Perrin caved in the side of his head with his hammer (totally cool) and now you're claiming she doesn't show Perrin enough attention?

 

What a bunch of baloney! Faile is three times the woman Berlain is. She has every right to be suspicious of a woman who is so obviously vying for the attentions of her husband.

 

In the end, perrin loves her. That's enough for me.

[Andrew B.]

Perrin makes it perfectly clear to Faile that he doesn't love Berelain yet she keeps being a jerk about it. I think that she shouldn't be on him when he keeps explaining to her that he loves her and not Berelain.

[Leafburner]

Umm... I don't mean to be rude, Andrew B, but do you actually know any women? To them, a guy saying something means very little. Women are all about the guy showing them.

 

"I'll do those dishes in the morning" does nothing. but when she wakes up and sees the dishes done, then you get the pat on the back. You see what I mean?

 

Plus Faile knows Berlain cannot be trusted, so whenever she feels threatened do you think she's gonna chew Berlain out about it? No, because Berlain wouldn't give a stuff about what Faile told her to do. But Perrin will listen to Faile, so that's where she vents her concerns and frustration at Berlain's contempt for her and Perrin's marriage.

 

I'm not saying that dumping on Perrin is necessarily the right thing to do, but a relationship is about forgiving your partner a few of their little quirks. Besides, if it is bothering Perrin that much, he'll let her know. In fact, when he did stand up to her, I believe she reacted amarously. I don't think anyone can begrudge a woman from goading her man if it turns her on.

 

And I don't think any man would mind, either!

[Llewin]

Exactly...

 

What we are seeing here is an actions speak louder than words situation coupled with culture clash...

 

For Perrin, yelling at the stupid wench who keeps trying to trip him in to bed to get her off his back is normal and although maybe not the 'nicest' way to deal with it, reasonable... To Faile, who is from a totally different culture, the appropriate response is to ignore Berelain or give her the cold shoulder, indicating she is not worth Perrin's attention or acknowledgement...

 

For Perrin, yelling at his wife, the love of his wife is a HORRIBLE idea, he is a kind gentle man who grew up in a culture where emotion was kept atleast somewhat under control. Perrin does what is natural to him to show his wife he loves her, he speaks to her calmly and gently... To Faile, any man who believes his wife is his equal should meet her 'on the battlefield' so to speak, being willing and able to show her his strength of character (and physical being) in such a way that she knows he feels she can stand up to him but that he is still strong enough to 'be the man' in the relationship... Any man who never yells at his wife thinks she is weak and not a match for him...

 

BIG contrast there, and THAT is the source of their heart ache... Now they have Perrin's good buddy Elyas however, and he's been trying to school Perrin on how to 'speak his wife's love language' for lack of a better term... So I think things will get better for them.

[SinisterDeath]

To Faile, any man who believes his wife is his equal should meet her 'on the battlefield'

 

Actually, Faile doesn't think Perrin treats her like an equal, but like a fragile little doll. She thinks, that he views her as a wimp, a weakling, both physicallly and mentally. What she wants is for him to treat her, not like she's weak, but strong and capable, escentially an equal.. Well Kinda.

[Llewin]

To Faile' date=' any man who believes his wife is his equal should meet her 'on the battlefield' [/quote']

 

Actually, Faile doesn't think Perrin treats her like an equal, but like a fragile little doll. She thinks, that he views her as a wimp, a weakling, both physicallly and mentally. What she wants is for him to treat her, not like she's weak, but strong and capable, escentially an equal.. Well Kinda.

 

Which is.... exactly what I said.... right?

[SinisterDeath]

To Faile' date=' any man who believes his wife is his equal should meet her 'on the battlefield' [/quote']

 

Actually, Faile doesn't think Perrin treats her like an equal, but like a fragile little doll. She thinks, that he views her as a wimp, a weakling, both physicallly and mentally. What she wants is for him to treat her, not like she's weak, but strong and capable, escentially an equal.. Well Kinda.

 

Which is.... exactly what I said.... right?

 

No, you said "any man who thinks she is there equil, should meet her on the battle field" which is saying, any man who thinks they are equil to her = wrong, cause she is better. I was saying that she thinks faile thinks she is weak, not strong.

[Llewin]

what i said is that faile and her culture indicate a man should be willing to fight with his wife eg. meeting her on the 'battle field' of love... and that she is upset because Perrin will not do so...

 

Sorry if that wasnt clear but that is what I said.

 

 

to Faile, any man who believes his wife is his equal should meet her 'on the battlefield' so to speak, being willing and able to show her his strength of character (and physical being) in such a way that she knows he feels she can stand up to him but that he is still strong enough to 'be the man' in the relationship... Any man who never yells at his wife thinks she is weak and not a match for him...

[Leafburner]

I don't know what post SD was reading, but I got your meaning from the start.

 

"To Faile, any man who believes his wife is his equal should meet her 'on the battlefield'" - Llewin

 

That's Faile's opinion. She thinks Perrin should do this, but he doesn't - or only very rarely when she has managed to sufficiently get his back up.

[Llewin]

*nod* ok thanks. I thought for a minute there my ability to communicate effectively had left me!

[dagwall]

haha, yeah that's how I read it the first time Llewin. You said it right and you are right about Faile. She believes that yelling involves passion. So if Perrin is yelling at Berelain he has passion for her. And him NOT yelling at her showes he doesn't care enough to shout and get excited about her. Now intellectually she does understand that that just isn't the way Perrin was raised and it doesn't come natural to him. But she is trying to teach him.

 

hehe because you can be damned sure if someone is going to change in the relationship it's going to be Perrin.

[Llewin]

dagwall: ROFL... TRUE DAT!

I think Elyas will help... Part of the challenge with Faile though is she is making the mistake a lot of people in relationships make... she wants Perrin to 'figure it out for himself' because if she tells him it makes the change 'less' somehow...

[mightisright]

If you don't use your morals to determine how to react what do you use? Not knowing what is right does not make it less wrong. Aw relativity my friend you help us understand everything and get us nowhere.

[Llewin]

You should definitely use your morals when making all decisions, however having the empathy to understand why a person or group of people do what they do, even if it goes against your morals, is also necessary, i believe.

 

After all if you dont understand the why, how can you change something that needs changing?

[Krista Borba]

Faile is probaly my least favorite character, but I really can't wait until she finds out she has had queen Morgase as her handmaiden she can eat crow. :lol:

 

I think Faile is going to get busted, she wants Perrin to get mad at her and speak up to her because of her culture, but be careful what you ask for cuz you just may get it. When Perrin finds out about Roland (he will, he'll be able to smell guilt) she will get hers, and may lose Perrin in the bargain, to Berlain, that is up to him, but as soon as Faile is back the game is back on. And who knows as sweet as Perrin is turn about is fair play in some cases, I think Perrin is too much of a push over for Faile so perhaps he just needs to tan her hide, or just leave her in the dust. :evil:

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, faile didn't do anything with Rolan to cause any guilt. If anything he wanted to rape her, which is definately not the same thing.

And we all should know about that thing that happens to people who are "kidnapped" and what can happen between the victim, and the kidnapper, that doesn't mean Faile would have "slept" with rolan.

[dagwall]

I don't think Rolan would have raped Faile. He did want to sleep with her and more but he wouldn't have forced her. He was just having trouble understanding why she was so resistant because in his culture it would be perfectly acceptable for the the hook up while she was gai'shan (sp?). Most of the characters in these books love to think of their culture as the "right" way and everyone else is backwards and wrong. Rolan was making his advances with Faile stronger but that was in part because Faile's refusals were getting weaker and weaker.

 

I do believe that given more time Faile might have given in because she really was starting to like Rolan. And if that is what it took to get her out of the Shadio camp she may have done it. For that she may feel guilty and for her small part in Rolan's death to Perrin she may feel guilty. But since she was rescued when she was she did not cheat on Perrin.

 

Though I don't think Perrin would leave her if she did. He would take it as his own failer for not getting to her in time. I don't agree that he should feel that way but I think he would.