R.J. didn't lie but "Mazrim Taim" is Demandred

[Sabio]

Since he gave Rand the seal to the darklords prison. No way if he was serving the darklord that would of been allowed.

Why not? Because you say so? Can't someone high up in the Shadow's hierarchy have decided to give it to him? To give to Rand? To help get Rand to trust him? You believe his story of how he found it?

 

Serious, can you really see the shadow giving up something so powerful just so later on they can search franticly for it?  Or would Ish or one of the others ordered it smashed as to quicken the DarkOnes return? 

[Hybrid]

Would not most of Rands encounters with the forsaken be more or less anticlimatic?

 

Be'lal: We see the trap, we have recently seen Rand defeat Ishamael, not once but twice, so we should get an epic battle. What happens? Be'lal trashtalks a bit, pwns Rand until Moiraine balefires him from behind. If Ishamael had not showed up the end of TDR would have been even more anticlimactic than ACOS.

 

Rahvin: Oh my, Rand is royally pissed from the beginning because he thinks Rahvin killed Morgase. He does not get happier when he sees mat and Avi die. But what happens? They run around for a while in T'A'R until Nynaeve shows up and sets rahvin on fire. Ok, not That anticlimactic, but maybe not the epic showdown we were hoing for.

 

Semirhage: We see the trap, we know something big is coming...Rand falls off his horse, and when he wakes up the others have dealt with Semirhage. And, we do not even get to see how that happened!

 

But this is one of the things I love with WOT, Rand is not a "superhero" who overpowers everything that comes in his way.

 

True, true.  I just thought that there would be a better fight between Rand and Sammael since there was a huge buildup with Rand massing troops near Illian for a number of books and preparing both the cover attack and the small infiltration into the city only to have Mashadar kill Sammael.  And I agree, it is better that Rand needs help to overcome obstacles and still gets beat-up along the way.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Serious, can you really see the shadow giving up something so powerful just so later on they can search franticly for it?  Or would Ish or one of the others ordered it smashed as to quicken the DarkOnes return?

UNQUOTE

 

It was a very sly move to get Rand to accept Taim into the soon-to-be-Black Tower.

 

From Rands PoV: Horrible man know how to channel. Horrible man give me shiny circle. Me collect shiny circles. Me like horrible man.

 

Seriously though, Rand notes something odd about Taim, but as Taim gave him a seal he didnt even consider Taim might be a Darkfriend in that scene. The question of why would a Darkfriend do this didnt even enter Rands mind.

 

From the Shadows PoV, whats Rand guna do, fix it? No, hes guna put it with the seals he already has, which we reckon Davram Bashere is holding, so we will keep on with that. And, if we dont find em, the Big Cheese will be out soon anyway.

[Hybrid]

Exactly. Now Taim is ideally placed to do harm to Rand and his cause, as well as to recruit new spies within the Asha'man ranks.  All for one seal that can just be stolen later.  Plus, I just reread that part of LOC, and Rand gives the seal to Bashere to keep safe.  Those who witness this: Rand's bodyguard, a few Saldaeans--and Taim.  Guess what happens in KOD?  Attempted thefts of Bashere and Dobraine.

[Sabio]

Well I am sure if the Forsaken ever learned what he had given Rand they would be expecting him to get it back.  I still can't see it considering how Mordin is demanding everyone find the seals now.  Why bother with all the pretend this and that when is was able to be smashed and can just speed up the DO's return that much quicker?  Aiel witnessed this and who better to sneak in and try to get something?  Aiel in either camp would hardly get alot of notice either. 

 

Always thought and still think Sam is still alive, as we have seen the glowy mist doesn't kill instantly and usually the victim has a few moments to scream.  I can't see him planning to lure Rand there and not taking the mist into account.  And because Rand thinks he didn't have time to make a gateway doesn't make it so.  Rand is hardly an expert when Lewis donesn't chime in.

[Hybrid]

Well I am sure if the Forsaken ever learned what he had given Rand they would be expecting him to get it back.  I still can't see it considering how Mordin is demanding everyone find the seals now.  Why bother with all the pretend this and that when is was able to be smashed and can just speed up the DO's return that much quicker?  Aiel witnessed this and who better to sneak in and try to get something?  Aiel in either camp would hardly get alot of notice either. 

 

Except that the culprits were NOT Aiel, they were two random guys with daggers and a forged note in both cases.  At least, Deira's attackers were not Aiel, but I doubt that a couple of Aiel carrying a note from Dobraine saying they could take whatever they want would be a good cover, with the whole Aiel/Cairhienin situation...  Also, I don't see why you would not give Rand the seal.  It's the perfect (and maybe the only) gift that will make Rand trust Taim.  Plus, they can always steal it back as what happened in KOD.  Evidence is that the DO wasn't ready to break out until enough chaos was sown anyways. 

Taim as a DF plant in the Black Tower > breaking one of the remaining 3 seals.

[Sabio]

I can agree with most of what you say except

 

Evidence is that the DO wasn't ready to break out until enough chaos was sown anyways. 

 

Since quicker he can get free easier it would be to win.  Since all he has to do is beat Rand and the world will fall no matter what.  Weaker Rand is when the DO faces him easier would be to convert him or defeat him.

 

Taim just needed Rand for protection from Bashere, Rand needed Taim to teach.  Rand was going to have to accept Taim no matter what becuase he needed someone who could channel.

 

[Hybrid]

Since quicker he can get free easier it would be to win.  Since all he has to do is beat Rand and the world will fall no matter what.  Weaker Rand is when the DO faces him easier would be to convert him or defeat him.

 

Taim just needed Rand for protection from Bashere, Rand needed Taim to teach.  Rand was going to have to accept Taim no matter what becuase he needed someone who could channel.

 

The problem is, I don't think it works that way.  The DO is not going to go 1v1 with Rand because a) he's not a corporeal entity and b) if he could do that, the world would have been done in about 10 seconds in the War of Power.  Looking at the War of Power, it took a hundred years after the Bore was drilled for the forces of the DO to move openly.  The DO uses proxies in his battles, and at the time of LOC the DO needed to rebuild his forces.  Over half the Forsaken were dead, including Ishamael, who was really the only one who knew what would really happen, and many of the rest were busy doing their own thing.  If the DO wanted to be free immediately, wouldn't it be Priority #1 to find and break the seals?  Instead, his orders are "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" which tied into Mesaana's plot to kidnap Rand. 

 

Also, no attempt has been made by DFs to get the seals until KOD, when the DO has been touching the world for some time, causing droughts, vermin outbreaks, bubbles of evil, ghosts, and ripple effects.

 

Yes, Rand needed Taim.  But that doesn't mean he would trust him.  Right now, Rand doesn't even keep tabs on what Taim is doing, which frustrates Logain in KOD.  If he really distrusted Taim, he would be more worried about the powerful DF channeler building an army of probable DF channelers.  Taim managed to slip underneath Rand's radar and has been highly active in recruiting and training Dreadlords for the Shadow.

[Sabio]

I doubt Rand has ever trusted Taim, especially with Lewis always screaming to kill him.  Think it was more of a you use what you got wether you like it or not.  As for Logain's warnings, Rand just doesn't view him as big of threat and doubts he will have time to do anything against Taim before the final battle.  Hence his comment about sometimes a sword turns in your hand or something like that.  He feels he has to deal with all the other problems happening first as long as Taim isn't causing problems now he can wait plus he knows Taim is out for himself but probably doesn't relaise Taim has gone fully DF.

 

Someone probably knows alot more about this then me but in the Big White Book it makes mention once the forces loyal to the Shadow felt strong enough they attempted to break the Dark One free of his prison completely and take control thus started the War of the Shadow.  He needs his followers to break free cuz he can't do it on his own.  But I thought once all the seals are broken on his prison he can break free? 

[Hybrid]

I doubt Rand has ever trusted Taim, especially with Lewis always screaming to kill him.

Would you listen to the mad man screaming about killing people in your head?  You're right though, Rand does not trust Taim.  However, he also does not really distrust Taim.

 

Think it was more of a you use what you got wether you like it or not.  As for Logain's warnings, Rand just doesn't view him as big of threat and doubts he will have time to do anything against Taim before the final battle.  Hence his comment about sometimes a sword turns in your hand or something like that.  He feels he has to deal with all the other problems happening first as long as Taim isn't causing problems now he can wait plus he knows Taim is out for himself but probably doesn't relaise Taim has gone fully DF.

Rand has evidence that Taim is working towards his own goals.  However, he does not distrust Taim as a potential Darkfriend, so he dismisses these warnings.  At the moment, he only believes Taim is a power-hungry ruthless guy.  Someone to be dealt with, but only after the Shadow has been dealt with.

[Majsju]

But I thought once all the seals are broken on his prison he can break free? 

 

The seals did not exist during the war of Power, so apparently just smashing them would not be enough.

 

There are a number of hints out there regarding what it takes to break the DO completely free, but no 100% proof.

[benr]

I'd have to go back and check, but didn't Moiraine say that the seals weren't actually the seals, but represented the seals?  They must be connected some way, but I think there must be more to it than just smashing them.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I just assumed the Seals were focus points for the wards of the Dark Ones prison. Nothing in particular to make me think that though, although I dont really think its that important. Maybe the seals only strengthen the prison rather than actually maintain it

[Sabio]

Wondered, becuase how paranoid they all are of the seals breaking and the care they take to point out daggers can cut them and things like that.  So never really understood their effect on the prison and the care taken to hide them.

[benr]

When they were made, and for most of their existence, they are unbreakable.  It is when they begin to break or crumble that we know there is trouble.  Somewhat like canaries in a mine.  When the seals are breaking, it's time to run like heck.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'd have to go back and check, but didn't Moiraine say that the seals weren't actually the seals, but represented the seals?  They must be connected some way, but I think there must be more to it than just smashing them.

 

I think it's plenty enough reason already. They're like remote sensors or something. Maybe breaking them doesn't completely release the DO but it probably weakens his prison enough for him to do the rest. As far as I know LTT and the hundred companions sealed him up and those cuendellar seals were the focus point for the actual physical/truesource ward. If they break the wards break or at least weaken them enough that they might as well be broken. Of course we won't know for sure until it happens but I think it's pretty safe to say thats how it works.

[Hybrid]

I agree, except:

 

Maybe breaking them doesn't completely release the DO but it probably weakens his prison enough for him to do the rest.

 

Breaking the seals doesn't completely release the DO.  It just reopens the Bore.  He was never completely free in the Age of Legends, so he's not going to be completely free in this Age when the seals are broken.  I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that there is no need for uncertainty in this matter.

[Majsju]

I agree, except:

 

Maybe breaking them doesn't completely release the DO but it probably weakens his prison enough for him to do the rest.

 

Breaking the seals doesn't completely release the DO.  It just reopens the Bore.  He was never completely free in the Age of Legends, so he's not going to be completely free in this Age when the seals are broken.  I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that there is no need for uncertainty in this matter.

 

Well, we do not know what the DO has been doing with the bore the last 3000 years. Now, I do not believe for a second that the DO has managed to increase it so much that it is just to go out and enter the world once the final seal is broken, but the bore should be quite a bit larger than during the AOL, and thus the DOs ability to touch the world quite a bit greater.

[Samudor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Lews Therin muttering something about the seals being incomplete, or not whole or perfect.

 

I think that Rand will need to break the seals and reseal the prison in a different way- the seals were more or less the finger in the big hole in the dam. It's a good thing Rand is fairly brilliant.

[Paviel]

I think the seals are incomplete because there weren't any women with Lews Therin when he tried to seal the Bore.

 

That's not going to be a problem for Rand, I think.

[Majsju]

The seals were never meant to be anything other than a temp solution, just a way to keep the DO from messing with the world long enough for the Aes Sedai to figure out how to undo the bore completely.

 

To break it down: The seven cuendillar discs are focus points for the seven seals that keeps the patch covering the bore in place.

 

Look at it this way, you smash a hole in your wall. Ok fine, call the carpenter...Who unfortunatly can not come until next week. But there is a storm coming, you can not have a hole in your wall with a storm going on! What to do?

 

You take a piece of a suitable material and make a patch to cover the hole until the carpenter can come. You keep it in place with seven nails. Ok fine.

Now, if four or five of the nails fall out, the patch will still be in place, but there will be gaps that allows wind and rain into your house. And an even stronger storm is coming...

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I think the seals are incomplete because there weren't any women with Lews Therin when he tried to seal the Bore.

 

That's not going to be a problem for Rand, I think

UNQUOTE

 

Thats what I've been thinking exactly. What Rand has that Lews Therin didn't have is just that-women channelers. Rand will have the female Wise Ones and Aes Sedai with him, (whether or not he gets support from all the Aes Sedai still remains to be decided of course) but its looking like he will have more female channelers than male with him than male.

 

It is said that the Bore can be felt at the Pit of Doom as all know, so maybe when Rand breaks the Seals the Bore will be exposed, and the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will be linked to Seal the Bore while Rand fends of the Dark One with the male Choeden Kal.

[CatinaSedai]

i cant remember where i will have to look it up but there are several times where mazrim taim seems to hold back an intense anger at rand almost as if someone else is taking over.  i also remember in knife of dreams that perrin sniffs him and i think he senses more than one person.  ill have to reread the series when i am done with icewinddale. 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Its Rand and Lews Therin he smells not Taim

[ReReader]

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, i did not have time to read through all the posts.  On the last page of Ch. 11 of Lord of Chaos, "Taim" refers to the Aiel as "these so-called Aiel."  The other Forsaken have used so-called to describe the Aiel.  Its not proof that Taim is Demandred, but Taim is definitely not of the current Age.