R.J. didn't lie but "Mazrim Taim" is Demandred

[Meg]

I believe that Robert Jordan pulled a very 'Aes Sedai' move on us all, and here is my logic:

 

The primary argument against Mazrim Taim being Demandred is that Robert Jordan denied this publicly and also said it should be obvious who Demandred is.

 

Most of the facts that I'm quoting below come from the Lord of Chaos but I didn't bother to specify where I got the info for the better known facts; this is a topic that has been hashed and rehashed.

 

It is known that the Black Ajah freed Taim from the Reds and then we are led to believe that he continued to skirmish for control and hide in Saldea.  In Lord of Chaos, in the same chapter Taim is introduced, Rand repeatedly references 'a nameless fellow who was killed in Hadon Mirk'.  I believe that after freeing Taim, the Black Ajah took him south with them and in Haddon Mirk, Demandred, who was spending much of his time masquerading as Taim in Saldea, killed the real Taim.  Hence Demandred isn't Mazrim Taim, Taim is dead.

 

Here are some more supporting arguments and more reasons why/how Demandred would do this:

 

The first character in the Lord of Chaos is Demandred.

 

Demandred was described later by Mesaana as having a hooked nose, which is also a facial characteristic associated with Saldea.

 

When Mazrim Taim approaches Rand about his amnesty, Lord Bashere doesn't believe his is Taim but is convinced by his knowledge of a closely kept secret; that Taim was attacked under the flag of Parley by four men who Taim implies he used compulsion on (a skill Liandrin proves possible to be self-taught but is considered foul).

   

A short while later Taim says that he is 'sane as Lord Bashere' which clearly means that Davram isn't crazy for not recognizing Taim.

 

When Taim approaches Rand, Lews Therin goes crazy and says the following:

    'Sammael and Demandred hated me whatever honors I gave them.  The more honors the worse the hate until they sold their souls and went over.  Demandred especially. I should have killed him… I should have killed them all! Scorch the earth to kill them all; scorch the earth!"

 

Later, throughout the books, Lews Therin continues to rant when he sees Taim 'kill him, kill him now…'

 

During this initial meeting, Rand describes many of the Forsaken's acts, to quell the Saldaens present; coincidentally(or is it?) he only speaks of the same four Forsaken who met earlier in the book to hear what the Dark One had said to Demandred*. Taim seems surprised by his knowledge but not surprised by the acts themselves.

 

Then Taim gives Rand a seal from the Dark One's prison. At this point, this is the only argument against Taim being Demandred that seemed feasible to me.  Rand asks where he got it and Taim says 'The last place you would expect' Taim said it was a remote Saldaen farm near the Blight but if you consider that Demandred just visited Shayol Ghul it isn't hard to see that that is the last place you would truly expect.

 

We can be further disabused of this notion if we consider that when he gives Rand the seal, Lews Therin speaks up again and says that the seal must be destroyed now, sooner than later, ranting about 'Breaking it now and finishing it now'.  Then we find out that Rand had the seal lifted over his head, repeating what Lews Therin was saying.  When he comes to his senses he's surprised to see the shock and fear on Mazrim's otherwise unflappable face.  That could have been just because Rand sounded crazy but a few moments later Rand says this of the look on Taim's face:

'…Not fear exactly…like a man who had felt a cliff unexpectedly crumbling under him and suddenly found himself back on solid ground.'

 

Initially when I read this, I though it meant the solid ground of Rand saving the world could crumble but the next thing Rand thinks makes me consider this from a different angle.  What Rand thinks to himself is that 'prophecy sets the conditions for what could happen, not what will happen' 

   

If the Dark One gave Demandred a seal to give to Rand could it have been because he knew that Rand wouldn't go against the conditions that prophecy had set?  Not setting the Dark One free sooner than later allows the Dark One time to get the world swimming in chaos and time for the Dark One to be powerful enough in the world to possibly crush Rand when the last of the seals crumbles on it's own. 

 

Isn't is sensible that if others are going to be helping Rand at the last battle, including all the Heroes of legend, then the Dark One wants a posse that is just as strong or stronger if possible?  Wouldn't he want Taim/Demandred to turn as many men who could channel to his purposes as possible? 

 

Yes he would; that is why he sent Demandred… who conveniently enough already had a spare identity to usurp… to become Rand's right hand man.  It is also why Demandred would feel that a cliff unexpectedly almost crumbled beneath him when Rand considered breaking all the seals right then and there.

 

I'm going to take a moment to reiterate the most obvious clues to Taim's dark affiliations:

 

Just as Demandred is described as never quite achieving Lews Therin's glory, so Taim is nearly Rand's equal in many ways but instead of having real dragons twining about his arms, he has fake dragons climbing his sleeves, whether in mockery or jealousy or possibly both.

 

Over time, Taim collects a secretive group of male channelers about him, several of whom apparently take it upon themselves to try to kill Rand when Mazrim knew he was weak.

 

Taim has apparently managed to hold off the madness for 10 or 15 years; he cannot explain why or how but this clearly suggests that he is affiliated with the Dark One.  More than likely he has a clean link to saidin as no other man who can channel has lived even half that long without experiencing some form of mental or physical decay.

 

And lastly, here is a more in depth version of my initial argument that the Taim we know is not the real Mazrim Taim:

 

Rand asks Taim if he has found any other men who could channel, Taim says he's met five, but only one had the courage to go beyond the testing and went '…mad after two years; I had to kill him before he killed me.' 

 

I believe the Dark One asked his minions to begin seeking men who could channel as soon as he knew that Rand was going to be revealed shortly as the real Dragon Reborn and had them all brought to Shayol Ghul and given the ultimatum 'learn to channel or die now' hence Demandred did know of five as he was still in the Dark One's prison at the time, gaining awareness again and would know that only one said he would learn.  When he was freed, he knew that he resembled a Saldean, so he knew that was where he wanted to begin his campaign.

 

Over and over again during this part of the book, Rand mentions 'a nameless fellow who was killed in Hadon Mirk.'  I believe this was the real Mazrim Taim, who traveled south from Saldea with the black sisters who went to free him from the Tower's control.  When they were almost to Tarabon (in Hadon Mirk), Demandred killed the poor crazed fool, all the while masquerading as Taim in Saldea to make his disguise more believable (Saldaen accent, seen as Taim in many places, etc.).  Lord Bashere hadn't seen Taim up close since he was captured and given the convincing performance Demandred gave to Davram (which I detailed above) he decided that he must be mistaken in his disbelief.

 

That is my logic; if you believe it is flawed, please let me know why, thanks for reading!

 

*At the above-mentioned meeting, Demandred revealed a plan to Semirhage, Mesaana and Graendal. Demandred tells them that he was told to 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule'(note that at the end of Knife of Dreams, Taim says the very same words!) Mesaana apparently shivered with fear.  What could be more fearful than the Demandred controlling all or nearly all of the men who could channel (and would go crazy) leading them to the last battle at Rand's side to 'get his flanks' so to speak for the Dark One?

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Meg, sadly Mazrim Taim is not Demandred--you see you missed the nuances of RJ's comments.

 

Firstly, what RJ specifically said was that Demandred had never posed as Taim--this is not an argument against Taim being Demandred, it rules it out completely because Mazrim Taim first appeared before Demandred was free, ergo if Demandred ever acted under the name Taim it would be posing as Taim--which RJ stated absolutely he did not do. He also stated that we have never seen Demandred's alternate persona onscreen (i believe that was around WH or CoT so we may have seen him since) but again this rules out Taim.

 

Furthermore RJ never said it was obvious who Demandred was. I think you must either be thinking of the comment about Asmodean's killer (the only time i believe RJ ever suggested a contested fact should be obvious) or perhaps the identity of Mesaana, which RJ said should be guessable from the content of the books so far.

 

Now, as to your specific points.

 

It is known that the Black Ajah freed Taim from the Reds and then we are led to believe that he continued to skirmish for control and hide in Saldea.  In Lord of Chaos, in the same chapter Taim is introduced, Rand repeatedly references 'a nameless fellow who was killed in Hadon Mirk'.  I believe that after freeing Taim, the Black Ajah took him south with them and in Haddon Mirk, Demandred, who was spending much of his time masquerading as Taim in Saldea, killed the real Taim.  Hence Demandred isn't Mazrim Taim, Taim is dead.

 

Firstly it is not known as fact that the Black Ajah freed Taim. It is suspected given the logic of the situation, but there is actually no evidence to sustain or imply it. Personally i believe it to be the case as well, but it isn't actually 'known'.

 

Secondly the nameless False Dragon in Haddon Mirk was active concurrent to the time Mazrim Taim initially was--around the Great Hunt. He, like Taim, was thrown down by visions of Rand in the sky, and the Tairens killed him out of hand. He could not channel.

 

Thridly, again, masquerading as Taim qualifies as posing as him, which is directly precluded by RJ's words.

 

When Mazrim Taim approaches Rand about his amnesty, Lord Bashere doesn't believe his is Taim but is convinced by his knowledge of a closely kept secret; that Taim was attacked under the flag of Parley by four men who Taim implies he used compulsion on (a skill Liandrin proves possible to be self-taught but is considered foul).

 

This was answered by RJ--Taim had been travelling hard for weeks in addition to shaving his beard. He looked more haggard, thinner and paler. It's also the reason Rand thought him almost ten years older than his actual age.

 

A short while later Taim says that he is 'sane as Lord Bashere' which clearly means that Davram isn't crazy for not recognizing Taim.

 

It does? Why?

 

The rest of your points are pretty much circumstantial--and no one denies RJ set Taim up as a red herring. But no, Taim is not Demandred.

 

 

[trakand_01]

Ahhh... and Meg you went to so much trouble!  :o

 

I have to say I agree Taim is just a red herring, and by human nature, if we can't figure out an alternative, we go with the easy option!

 

I'm looking forwards to finding out though :)

[Vemynal]

i still think that we haven't been introduced to who demandred is, after all Graendal states he likes using proxies (or was it sammael who says that?) and events to the south have his mark.

 

Seems to me either he's in part responsible for masema (note: he is not actually masema) or he could be as i think luckers said and responsible for the 13 aes sedai with the borderlander kings/queens

[DemandredFO]

Meg; Demandred did NOT realize that Flinn was an Ashaman until he started trying to kill him.  This event took place at the cleansing with a Demandred POV, so it DEFINITIVELY proves Demandred is not Taim.  He may be helping or be Taim's control but they are two different people.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Meg; Demandred did NOT realize that Flinn was an Ashaman until he started trying to kill him.  This event took place at the cleansing with a Demandred POV, so it DEFINITIVELY proves Demandred is not Taim.  He may be helping or be Taim's control but they are two different people.

 

I think that Demandred definitly is Taim's control.  In one of the Forsaken meetings one of them pointed out that it was Osan'gar's responsibility to keep an eye on al'Thor, his and Demandred's.  Thus, it would seem that Demandred must be someone close to Rand.  This leaves two options, either he is someone in Rand's personal enterage or he is in the Black Tower.  However, RJ stated that we haven't met Demandred's alter-ego yet so that would make in difficult for him to be someone in Rand's personal enterage.  Thus, it seems likely that Demandred is some seeminly insignificant Asha'man in the Black Tower.  I suspect that he and Taim have a relationship similar to that of Messana and Alviarin.

[Luckers]

I doubt it, personally. I think Demandred hasn't assumed an alter-ego, but it rather dabbling in a number of things--likely touching upon the Black Tower at times, but i very much don't see him fully set up.

 

Aside from which I doubt Taim is under anyones thumb anymore. It seems very likely that he has been raised to the level of Chosen, and given many of his actions have been contrary to that of the other Forsaken and the Shadow as a whole I'd guess that he's dancing to his own tune--and without any high degree of supervision either, since he moves pretty bluntly.

[Vemynal]

i think Maj or Luckers will have to correct me on this:

 

but we have the "we have not been introduced to demandred's alter ego" around book 7? book 8?

 

leaving 9, 10 and 11

 

mind i still think that demandred is demandred and he is simply influencing proxies and does not have some "alter ego"

[trakand_01]

I dont know exactly, but I seem to remember it that RJ said we hadnt met Demandred's alter ego before book 9, as you said.

 

Whether that means we've HEARD of him, but not physically met him, I dont know.

[schizm]

I think Demandred is someone to the south, probably close to the south, likely near Altara or Tarabon, maybe Ghealdan, yet for the life of me, I can't find anyone I like for it yet. I keep reading, rereading and looking, but it hasn't struck me yet.

 

As for the killer of Asmodean, I think it was Isam/Luc. Who better to know the ways around the palace in Camelyn? That's my theory anyway. That's why he was able to kill him without being detected, and able to leave just the same.

[Mr Ares]

As for the killer of Asmodean, I think it was Isam/Luc. Who better to know the ways around the palace in Camelyn? That's my theory anyway. That's why he was able to kill him without being detected, and able to leave just the same.

This should probably go in the Asmo thread. I'm sure if you posted there, people would be glad to point out the holes in the theory (like Slayer remembering killing two BA Sisters, but not seeing killing one of the Chosen as a similar high point of his career), or ask awkward questions (like who hired him).

 

It would be helpful if someone could find and post the quote that says we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego, and when RJ said it. Although, I'm in the Demandred doesn't have an alter ego camp. We're told the guy uses proxies. Makes sense to think of him using proxies, rather than ruling directly.

[Vemynal]

As for the killer of Asmodean, I think it was I'm in the Demandred doesn't have an alter ego camp. We're told the guy uses proxies. Makes sense to think of him using proxies, rather than ruling directly.

 

nice to know i'm not alone^^

[Ashaman Kovan]

Okay in my opinion it is so in your face obvious that Demandred is NOT Taim. The main evidence is this. In every single POV we have of Demandred he is always mentions his undrying hate for LTT. Which he has transfered wholeheartedly to rand blah blah blah. Given this complete hate demandred has for rand how could he possibly have been that close to rand so many times and not done anything? Yes the orders were not to kill him but that doesn't say anything about maiming him. Look what Semmi did. There was all sorts of unpleasant things Demandred (If he was taim) could have done that wouldn't have killed him. He could have used compulsion to name one. It only fails or is harder to use if the target is already holding the power. Rand almost never held the power around Taim because of LTT rantings. So the element of surprise was almost always on Taims side. So in conclusion I think that is plenty enough to prove that taim is NOT Demandred.

[Majsju]

Although, I'm in the Demandred doesn't have an alter ego camp. We're told the guy uses proxies. Makes sense to think of him using proxies, rather than ruling directly.

 

I have been there ever since I had to toss my pet-theory about Demandred being with the whitecloaks in the dustbin. And that was a loooong time ago...

[The Heron]

Just for further evidence that Taim is not Demandred, on pg. 509-510 (paperback) of winters heart Kisman states that the M'Hael ordered him to Kill rand and in the next paragraph Kisman states that Demandred "comanded later" for him to kill Rand.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I really wish people would leave Taim alone. He is brilliant as he is, and him being anything other than some channeler who went over to the Dark of his own accord would just spoil his brilliantness. He is one of my favorite characters, BECAUSE I think he is the first male channeler of this Age to go over to the Dark without being turned against their will.

 

As for what RJ said being Aes Sedai talk, I remember putting the same thing on another thread but not the same way people are now thinking. RJ said "No, Demandred is not posing as Taim. Sometimes the most simple and outrught answers are the most devious." Or something like that.

 

RJ loved seeing people squirm, making them think and wonder about something, when really the answer might be so obvious you might miss it. Its one of the ongoing themes of the series; it seems perfectly normal to me that he owuld carry this on at interviews when he is "out of character." So, him saying "No, Demandred has never posed as Taim" was the outright answer that cant be misinterpretted; Demandred has NEVER posed as Taim. I reckon RJ added the "sometimes the most simple answers are the most devious" comment purely to make us doubt the finality of what he had just said. As I said, we know he likes people to wonder and speculate where in reality there is no reason at all. He is right; sometimes the most simple answers ARE the most devious; I think he placed that comment very carefully. Think about it-we know that unless an Aes Sedai says something outright, she cant be lying. If an Aes Sedai doesnt say what you want outright and in full, or if she answers with a one word reponse, then she hasnt necessarily answered truthfully at all. I think RJ was playing with us when he said that about Demandred, just for the hell of it. He gives us a definite answer, and then makes us doubt the finality of it

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

I really wish people would leave Taim alone. He is brilliant as he is, and him being anything other than some channeler who went over to the Dark of his own accord would just spoil his brilliantness. He is one of my favorite characters, BECAUSE I think he is the first male channeler of this Age to go over to the Dark without being turned against their will.

 

And why do you think he is the first male channeler to go over to the dark in the Third Age?  We know that there were dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars, some of them were probably male channelers.  Besides, if there are darkfriends from every land and every social strata, it stands to reason that there are men who can channel as darkfriends as well.  I don't think there is any evidence in the books to indicate that Taim is the first male channeler of the age to turn.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think he is the first to go over willingly.

 

I am fairly sure that if the Shadow had a significant ammount of male channelers before the Black Tower formed we would surely have heard about them? There may be the odd one, but I reckon Taim was the first one to approach the Dark without being manipulated into it.

 

Has anyone noticed that, while Taim is definitely not a good guy, that he doesnt seem as "look out for number 1" as the Forsaken? What I mean is, while he is definitely not a good guy, he seems more loyal than the Chosen, more focussed on his goal, and because of that, he is successful. He almost seems like the current Ages' first male Forsaken, the first major guy to go over to the Dark. He is strong enough to be Forsaken, whereas most of the Darkfriend Ashaman are not. Taim may be aiming for Chosen status, and the Ashaman aiming for the title of Dreadlord.

[Mr Ares]

I am fairly sure that if the Shadow had a significant ammount of male channelers before the Black Tower formed we would surely have heard about them?

We did. They were called Dreadlords. There were quite a lot of them. Are you saying they were all in it against their will?

 

He is strong enough to be Forsaken, whereas most of the Darkfriend Ashaman are not.

Since when has being a Chosen had a strength limit?

[Luckers]

*draws breath*... *sees Ares said everything*... *pouts*.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

We did. They were called Dreadlords. There were quite a lot of them. Are you saying they were all in it against their will

UNQUOTE

 

Where are they? Why have they done nothing since the first book? Those Dreadlords you mentioned Ares are the ones from the Age of Legends, and since everyone refers to them in the past tense in the books then I think its OK to say they are all dead. You cant seriously believe that the Shadow has some hidden army of Darkfriend male channelers standing around for two years while Rand takes over and the Forsaken bicker among themselves? If there was some nest of male channelers working for the Shadow then they would almost definitely have been teamed up with the Black Ajah. The only non-Forsaken male channelers loyal to the Shadow are those taught at the Black Tower if you ask me.

 

I dont think we will see any new Dreadlords if Im honest. I dont think anyone will use the title Dreadlord anyway, although we already been seeing the equivalent.

[Hybrid]

The Dreadlords were Darkfriend channelers from the Trolloc Wars.  They were not the Forsaken.  They were not from the Age of Legends.  This would require them living to be able to fight some 1000 years later.  However, they were likely taught by Ishamael if they were male, and Black Ajah if they were female.  They did not call themselves the Forsaken or the Chosen because they did not want to oversstep themselves.

[Mik]

*draws breath*... *sees Ares said everything*... *pouts*.

Hee hee hee..

 

Seriously, I'm so surprised Mr Ares and yourself still don't see Ishy is transmigrated into Taim's body. It's inti..inte.. it's obvious.  ;)

RJ dropped some easy bait (the DemandRed Herring)...some fish took the bait (an are still taking it, wich baffles me even more). Some fish decided Taim must be Taim... others read between the lines. Something you do so well, Luckers.

 

There's plenty of clues. Please take my word for it.

I'm with Asmo on this one. Always have been.

 

[Hybrid]

It is possible (and I stress possible) that Moridin is Taim.  The descriptions are close enough that a Mask of Mirrors could do the trick, and Ishamael put himself in a similar position with Hawkwing.  But I desperately want there to be a competent enemy from the Third Age.  I will be disappointed if Taim turns out to be someone other than simply Taim.

[Vassili]

Actually, I think you have a point there. I would bet Moridin is Taim. The real Taim was a false dragon for awhile, but then he got his soul sucked out and BANG brand new body for Ishy.

 

Could Demandred be Asuana? Or however its spelled. He certainly seems a lot like the other Forsaken when they were in disguise.