Tuon's Comparison

[CUBAREY]

So in all reality it should be obvious that theres more Non-channeler violence going on in the WoT than channeling violence.

 

True but its the qualitative difference that count's. A few hundred non-channeling mauraders might be able to sack a small village. A few hundred channelers have the potential to produce another "breaking of the World".

Its not only the violence but its potential reach that counts.

[Luckers]

Unless all the Randland channies are leashed. Then it'll be good times.

 

Not possible. Given that Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and even some kin now know how to Travel, invert their weaves and hide their ability its no longer feasible that the Seanchan could leash all Randland channelers. In fact its essentially impossible.

[Silver]

One can dream though, one can dream.

[Snowy Dawn]

``What about the woman she killed who was about to kill mat in Maderin? It was okay because what?.....She did in defense of someone she cared about?''

 

She was assisting in the defense of another who was under attack by someone trying to kill. She was assisting in Mat's defense of his life. How is this illegitimate under any theory of the acceptability of self-defense?

[Luckers]

One can dream though, one can dream.

 

"When its cold and rainy and i don't have to go to work, i stay snug in my warm bed and dream sweet dreams of your entire organisation being leashed like animals."

 

Heh.

[Ashaman Kovan]

``What about the woman she killed who was about to kill mat in Maderin? It was okay because what?.....She did in defense of someone she cared about?''

 

She was assisting in the defense of another who was under attack by someone trying to kill. She was assisting in Mat's defense of his life. How is this illegitimate under any theory of the acceptability of self-defense?

 

I'm talking about simplistic killing. Why should her motives make a difference? To her a channelers motives mean nothing.

[Snowy Dawn]

``I'm talking about simplistic killing. Why should her motives make a difference?''

 

Trying to kill someone is an act not a motive.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I think you're missing my point. A channeler could kill someone for selfishness or personal gain, but so could a non-channeler. In Tuons eyes if say Joline would have been the one to kill the woman by using the one power, such an act would be evil. But since tuon did it with her hands that makes it okay?

[CUBAREY]

In Tuons eyes if say Joline would have been the one to kill the woman by using the one power, such an act would be evil

 

Nope, she would think that Joline as an incollared channeler was evil. She would be happy that Joline protected Mat and not necessarily think that act was evil but in her eyes Joline (like all uncollared channelers is evil).

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Not possible. Given that Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and even some kin now know how to Travel, invert their weaves and hide their ability its no longer feasible that the Seanchan could leash all Randland channelers. In fact its essentially impossible. 

 

 

 

Capture and collar a large amount of A.S. Torture them into giving up their secrets. Use those secrets, collared AS, and Seanchen Damanane to capture another group, etc. It would take a while but is doable. Remember the Seanchen have wanted to recapture Randland for a thousand years. ZIn the long run if they destroyed the White Tower and conqured most of Randland they could succeed.

[Snowy Dawn]

Asha'man Kovan:

 

Ah, now I think that I understand your point, but Cubarey's reply seems adequate. And never mind that Tuon probably would not see a <i>damane</i> killing using the one power as necessarily evil: it would depend on the circumstances: e.g., killing using saidar in battle would be okay, if the cause was just---in whatever version of the idea of a just war Tuon might entertain. I seriously doubt Tuon will object to the use of saidar by <i>damane</i> to injure or kill Aes Sedai in the upcoming Seanchan attack on the White Tower, for example, tho' she would presumably prefer that they all be captured. Nor do I think she would have objected to the use of the one power to kill in the attack on Falme, or Ebou Dar.

[wvlr]

I wish that Mat had had the forsight and inclination to turn Tuon's little statement on it's head.

 

Mat  "But Precious, don't you agree that the DO is Bad?    That being the case - shouldn't we use every tool that the Creator gave us to fight the DO?    Wouldn't it be evil if a person let to DO win because she refused to use all the tools the Creator gave her to fight him?"

[Luckers]

Capture and collar a large amount of A.S. Torture them into giving up their secrets. Use those secrets, collared AS, and Seanchen Damanane to capture another group, etc. It would take a while but is doable. Remember the Seanchen have wanted to recapture Randland for a thousand years. ZIn the long run if they destroyed the White Tower and conqured most of Randland they could succeed.

 

It doesn't work that way--knowing how to invert or hide the ability won't let them find those that are doing so, especially when they can flee by travelling.

 

Oh, the Seanchan might have been able to take the Tower, but leashing all Aes Sedai is beyond them now. Leashing all Wise Ones probably always was beyond them, but especially so now.

 

I wish that Mat had had the forsight and inclination to turn Tuon's little statement on it's head.

 

Mat  "But Precious, don't you agree that the DO is Bad?    That being the case - shouldn't we use every tool that the Creator gave us to fight the DO?    Wouldn't it be evil if a person let to DO win because she refused to use all the tools the Creator gave her to fight him?"

 

I don't really see that logic having much of an impact. Firstly, by losing sul'dam free channelers attain roles which Tuon, by process of precedent would assume would result in anarchy much as it did in Seanchan. Secondly, the assumption implied--that without sul'dam channeling the light would lose--is pretty hard to prove. It lacks any basis that Tuon could percievably engage--after all if she leashes all channelers, than who is channeling for the other side. Numbers definately still seem to stand in her favour. Thirdly, the idea of evil begetting evil is pretty hard to follow through logically. What if she doesn't concider it evil to retain her moral stance even if it risks loss to the Dark One? There are many people who would say such a stance is noble--heroic even.

[Ashaman Kovan]

In Tuons eyes if say Joline would have been the one to kill the woman by using the one power, such an act would be evil

 

Nope, she would think that Joline as an incollared channeler was evil. She would be happy that Joline protected Mat and not necessarily think that act was evil but in her eyes Joline (like all uncollared channelers is evil).

 

 

 

If shes so evil then why would she save mat? If she's so evil then what was her motivation? She doesn't need mats protection anymore. She and the other AS could leave. ALong with Bethamin and Seta theres not really anyone who could stop them.

[Snowy Dawn]

``If shes so evil then why would she save mat? If she's so evil then what was her motivation?''

 

I find it hard to believe that Tuon thinks that Joline in and of herself is evil, rather Tuon thinks that Joline being <i>marath-damane</i> is evil, and the evil of that will not go away until Joline is properly collared and trained as a <i>damane</i>. Maybe `evil' isn't the most appropriate word here, tho', IIRC, the Seanchan do make the sign for warding off evil in the vicinity of an uncollared channeler.

[Jambo]

The simple problem with Tuon's comparison is that she assumes the damane have the choice to channel or not. In truth though, we know that most of the damane (especially the ones from Seanchan) had to have been women born with the spark because all the other ones became the trainers (sul'damane?). We also know that sooner or later a person born with the spark will begin to channel, whether they want to or not. So by Tuon saying that they are inherently evil because they have chosen to channel is flawed logic. Her idea would hold true if all women had to be taught to channel, but we know that is not the case. For her to say it is evil for them to do something even though they have no choice is like saying it's evil for someone to swim when they're thrown into a deep body of water even though they Have No Choice.

[schizm]

I think that before all is said and done, Tuon will be brought to change her mind on this subject. It'll be hard for her, considering, but she's already had some exposure to Aes Sedai, and sees that they aren't completely what she'd been taught. I think in the end, she'll change once she's had time to meet Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, and some others, Cadsuane and the Aiel wise ones. No once she meets them, and realizes that they are a huge part of this last battle, then she can be brought to change her opinions. Especially due to Mat, and a lesser extent Rand.

[Mr Ares]

The simple problem with Tuon's comparison is that she assumes the damane have the choice to channel or not.

Does she? Or does she believe that she has a coice, and chooses not to make a wrong choice, but the damane are just born wrong, born evil? Although evil is probably too strong a word.

[Silver]

Her comparison is about those who can learn to channel, not those who have the spark.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The comparison was between herself (not born with the spark, but with the ability to learn) and the damane (norn with the spark, will channel whether they want to or not). So in effect she was comparing someone who has the spark to someone who has the ability to learn. Ultimately, she sees herself as better because she can choose to not channel