Red Herrings

[trakand_01]

I've been reading the one on 'Most unfair fight' and it was commented that quite often we know who will win the fight even before steel touches steel, for example Rand fighting Rochaid / Kisman whichever one it was in Far Madding - he knew his next punch would kill the guy.

 

So I got to thinking. Is it ALL so predictable? No, not in my head because the biggest question we EVER have is 'Will Rand live or die?'

 

Then I got to thinking of other things which happened that we really (or at least I really) werent expecting.

 

This is my list;

 

1. ... the Sheinaran guy who was a darkfriend... 'Five ride forth, Four return'... can't remember his name!!

 

2. Rahvin succeeded in killing Mat and Aviendha (although granted only for about 2 pages until Rand managed to balefire them out of it)

 

3. What I'm reliably informed happens to Rand at the end of Book 11 (dont want to post spoilers here)

 

4. Verin! She seemed so normal and dozy to start with. Always watch the quiet ones, my gran used to say!

 

5. Alanna and her 'act of desperation'.

 

Can you think of any more?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ok, that about Rand knowing the next punch would kill him, I wasnt commenting that it was too predictable, I was saying it because I like that Rand knows the second punch is the killer.

 

I dont think many of the fights are any more predictable than in any fantasy. Again, look at the fight of Mat vs Gawyn and Galad. When I first read that I thought Mat would get have some soire spots after that (it was only a spar after all) I didnt think Mat would beat them at all.

 

I think in most books you normally know the good guy will win, its how uit happens that makes it good. I dont think WoT is any more predictable than any other books.

 

A good example of an unpredictable result was Thom vs. the Myrdraal. So early in the series we didnt know much about Thom, other than that he was a gleeman. I thought he would die if he fought a Myrdraal just as the Rand and Mat did. Yet he survived; not so predictable

[Mr Ares]

1. ... the Sheinaran guy who was a darkfriend... 'Five ride forth, Four return'... can't remember his name!!

Ingtar.

 

2. Rahvin succeeded in killing Mat and Aviendha (although granted only for about 2 pages until Rand managed to balefire them out of it)

And Asmo - shortly followed by his resurrection and murder. Poor guy can't catch a break.

[trakand_01]

1. ... the Sheinaran guy who was a darkfriend... 'Five ride forth, Four return'... can't remember his name!!

Ingtar.

 

2. Rahvin succeeded in killing Mat and Aviendha (although granted only for about 2 pages until Rand managed to balefire them out of it)

And Asmo - shortly followed by his resurrection and murder. Poor guy can't catch a break.

 

1. That's the one!

 

2. I know, terrible. What do you have to do to survive as a turncoat Forsaken these days? I mean, really...  ;)

[RAND AL THOR]

The raising of Egwene as Amyrlin was one of the moments that left me stupified.

[Leopoled Boothe]

1. Mat killing Coulidin (sp).

 

2. Paden Fain turning out to be the thing that was following them through "The Ways" in ETOW.

 

3. Sammeal being killed by Mashadar

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Lord Luc ending up being Slayer is another good one. I think the Isam/Luc thing is great, one of the few non-Forsaken with something different about them.

[Spirit1025]

Actually, I knew that Luc was Slayer as soon as we met him. But yeah, he's an interesting character for sure.

 

I think in most books you normally know the good guy will win, its how uit happens that makes it good. I dont think WoT is any more predictable than any other books.

 

Agreed. The usual theme of a fantasy novel is 'good against evil'. And you'd have to be one messed up person to want to write a book where evil wins, unless you were writing it as a joke. (something I have thought about doing...)Most novels reflect the beliefs of the author in some way, and most people do not believe in the supremacy of evil over good. At least not most people I have met...

[RAND AL THOR]

most people do not believe in the supremacy of evil over good. At least not most people I have met...

 

Most people perhaps, but it seems to be in effect everywhere.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Prevalent everywhere certainly.

 

My own view is nothing becomes supreme until people quit fighting it.

[Asmo]

There are some things that startled me throughout the series. Moghedien appearing out of nowhere after Nynaeve and Birgitte went to the Forsaken meeting was one of those, as well as Mat going into the ter'angreal doorway. But for the most part, the multiple POVs as well as the prophecies and dreams and Foretellings really do leave little room for speculation.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The Foretellings and such tell the outcomes but not how we get there, so while a lot of the results are apparant it is finding out how they come about that is the good thing.

 

Mazrim Taim. Loads of people thought he was Demandred, people even doubted quotes from RJ stating that he isnt. I think RJ deliberately gave him Age of Legends qualities specifically to throw us off Dashiva, as well as perform the tasks he does. I really do think Taim is Taim, some of RJs answers about him would have been different if he was somebody else in disguise/reincarnated

[Asmo]

I'll be surprised if Taim isn't Moridin, but I never really thought he was Demandred. After all, I only started seriously suspecting Taim was more than a simple Darkfriend in Book 10, and his unDemandredism was proven in Book 9.

[Mr Ares]

I'll be surprised if Taim isn't Moridin

I'll be surprised if he is. If so, they better explain why Moridin feels the need to give someone roughly the same set of orders twice (Winter's Heart - Taim orders the Asha'man to kill Rand, then Moridin says for them to bring back what he had in his possession, and says to kill him if you have to. Odd, if they are one and the same).

[Asmo]

I'll be surprised if Taim isn't Moridin

I'll be surprised if he is. If so, they better explain why Moridin feels the need to give someone roughly the same set of orders twice (Winter's Heart - Taim orders the Asha'man to kill Rand, then Moridin says for them to bring back what he had in his possession, and says to kill him if you have to. Odd, if they are one and the same).

 

A simple use of Illusion solves the problem. There can be other reasons, too, such as Moridin not wanting the Asha'man to think he is Taim, but I won't go into that.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Not that I support the idea of Taim being Moridin, but him giving the same order twice could definitely have its benefits. As said, he might not want people to know he is Taim, even the Darkfriend Ashaman, so him giving the order as Taim and THEN Moridin not only throws them off discovering who he is but makes them more likely to obey. Think about it; Darkfriends who can channel might get ambitious and while they seem loyal to Taim from what we've heard, for all we know Moridin might have given the order a second time to make it seem as if Taim works for him, the Naeblis. So, disobey Taim, and you bring on the wrath of the Naeblis...

 

As I say, I dont support the idea of Taim being Moridin but I think if Taim IS anyone other than just Taim then Moridin would be my first choice. But I get the feeling we have seen Moridin use an alter ego already

[Mr Ares]

But he didn't give the same order twice. What happened: Taim gave the order to kill him. They failed (Cairhien). He then repeated the order, but said it would be better for them to die trying than to come back if they fail. Then there is a recollection of Demandred also giving the kill them order, but saying keep it secret from everyone - even Taim. Then Moridin gives the order to kill them if they had to, but the most important thing was to bring back everything in their possession (he wanted the Access Keys, to prevent the Cleansing). A similar order, but not the same. So does he want them dead (Taim, Demandred), or is he not bothered about whether or not they are dead provided his possessions are brought back (Moridin). Does he want them dead or is he not that bothered? That is the contradiction in the orders. There's not wanting them to know who he really is, and then there's giving contrary orders, which would confuse the issue unnecessarily - and could hamper their mission. Do they get his stuff and leave, or do they kill him? Why is he doing that? Simple answer: Taim is not Moridin. Two different people gave two similar but not identical sets of orders.

[RAND AL THOR]

Maybe he changed his mind?

 

Ishamael/Moridin seems to be in quite a dilemna about whether Rand should stay alive or not.

[Asmo]

But he didn't give the same order twice. What happened: Taim gave the order to kill him. They failed (Cairhien). He then repeated the order, but said it would be better for them to die trying than to come back if they fail. Then there is a recollection of Demandred also giving the kill them order, but saying keep it secret from everyone - even Taim. Then Moridin gives the order to kill them if they had to, but the most important thing was to bring back everything in their possession (he wanted the Access Keys, to prevent the Cleansing). A similar order, but not the same. So does he want them dead (Taim, Demandred), or is he not bothered about whether or not they are dead provided his possessions are brought back (Moridin). Does he want them dead or is he not that bothered? That is the contradiction in the orders. There's not wanting them to know who he really is, and then there's giving contrary orders, which would confuse the issue unnecessarily - and could hamper their mission. Do they get his stuff and leave, or do they kill him? Why is he doing that? Simple answer: Taim is not Moridin. Two different people gave two similar but not identical sets of orders.

 

It's quite basic, really.

 

Demandred, who does not know Taim is Moridin, disguises themselves as Taim and gives the order - because Demandred wants Rand dead. Taim, who is Moridin, learns of the order and after they fail in Cairhien, sends them again after Rand - as Taim - but warns them not to come back, because he does not want Rand thinking Taim is responsible for the attack. Then Demandred comes and gives the same order, this time as himself, to make sure they obey - for all he knew, Taim was just a Darkfriend so his orders carried more weight. He also makes sure they don't reveal themselves again, because that might point an arrow for Moridin to Taim. Last, Moridin comes in, and to shrug off all suspicion, gives a different order than he did as Taim - the order which he really meant all along, to make the Asha'man retrieve the access key ter'angreal and the seals in Rand's possession.

 

So in the end, Demandred gets rickrolled, the Asha'man do what Moridin wants, and everyone is happy.

[Mr Ares]

It's quite basic, really.

That's your idea of basic? I'd like to see your version of complex. William of Ockham must be spinning in hs grave. Also, Demandred has never posed as Taim, which your theory would have him do. Back to the drawing board, then.

[Darkholme]

Well things I've found interesting about Moridin that Ithinks give credence to him being Taim are a few things.

 

1. When we first see Moridin he seems to already have a "power base" set up and has things he is working on.

 

2. Demandred notes that Moridin has a large number of saa spinning across his eyes. Therefore he is using the True Power almost exclusively. I believe he is using the True Power for his Taim disguise.

 

3. In the Epilogue of KoD when Pevara and the other red's are going to Taim about bonding, Jordan makes two pointed comments about the red and black tiles on the floor.

 

4. The comments like "so called Aiel" and knowing things like how to test for resonance.

 

These things make me think that Moridin = Taim.

[Mr Ares]

Alternative theory: Moridin taught Taim.

1. When we first see Moridin he seems to already have a "power base" set up and has things he is working on.

He is working through, not as, Taim.

 

2. Demandred notes that Moridin has a large number of saa spinning across his eyes. Therefore he is using the True Power almost exclusively. I believe he is using the True Power for his Taim disguise.

He uses the TP for a lot of things.

 

3. In the Epilogue of KoD when Pevara and the other red's are going to Taim about bonding, Jordan makes two pointed comments about the red and black tiles on the floor.

 

4. The comments like "so called Aiel" and knowing things like how to test for resonance.

Both things he picked up from his teacher, Ishamael.

 

Note also that Taim was fighting a battle in Saldaea when Rand fought Ishamael above Falme. Unless he went straight from havng a sword shoved through his chest to fighting Bashere, which is crazy even by Ishy's standards. So this theory requires that Taim be killed and replaced at some point. When? During the time he was on the run? When he arrived in Caemlyn he had been in such rough conditions that he looked several years older. Did Moridin feel the need to do this? We don't even know if he was active at that point - we first see Taim in LoC, we first see Moridin in ACoS.