Semirhage - a dimwit?

[RAND AL THOR]

the sul'dam are [somehow...] INCREDIBLY quick with putting on the a'dam.  tuon and her bodyguard(forgot her name xD) managed to collar 2-3 AS in the wagon in a couple of seconds without the AS reacting.

 

Incredible indeed. ;D

[Mr Ares]

Then we get to book 11 and find out that, nope, one... just one... of them can preemptively cripple an entire empire all by herself.

Maybe they can cripple empires. But that, as pointed out by Majsju (and as directly stated by RJ: "The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most."), was not their intention. Why destroy when you want to conquer, unless you have to?

[Guest Toad]

Bob makes a good point.  For the supposed cream of the crop in the age of legends, the forsaken sure seem to get thwarted easily by a bunch of hayseeds from the Two Rivers.

[trakand_01]

I just can't envision Semirhage blundering so badly.

 

Envision it.  She's as blindly arrogant as anyone in the series.

 

People only "know" what they believe.  They discount everything else.  Semi believes that she is superior to anyone else alive.  Light or Dark.  Since she's still alive, and especially since she'd just wiped out the entire Seanchan Imperial Court, she had ample justification for her belief.  Justification does not equal truth.

 

That's really what the whole war is about.  One group feels they're "justified by their superiority" in doing whatever they choose.  The other group disagrees.

 

What he said. She's a Forsaken, she's power-mad and not without her own strength. She's lived through one world, been imprisoned, set free and now lives in this world. On the other hand, the man she's trying to capture is barely 21, has some serious personality disorders and besides - how strong can he BE?

 

She's arrogant to the point of no return, just like Sammael was.

 

Personally I think Graendal will be the toughest nut to crack; she truly aint stupid.

[RAND AL THOR]

If the reason for Semi's capture was sheer arrogance, then that effectively nullifies her intelligence. It is impossible for someone to be intelligent and also not cautious. Semi was most certainly not cautious enough. Arrogance seems to be a poor excuse for the events that unfolded there.

 

I doubt Rand is going to bother much with the Forsaken in AMOL. If they come before him, then he'll likely try to wipe them out-but I don't expect him to go hunting them like he did before. His attention will all be on the Lord Captain Commander of the Dark.

[trakand_01]

I have to say that in my experience (personal real-life experience), common sense and intelligence are two completely different things that quite often have a negative correlation to each other.

 

Arrogance added to a lack of common sense just adds to the problem.

 

Yes Semi is intelligent. However her common sense is obviously not excellent, and regardless of how 'intelligent' she is, she believes herself so 'safe' that although the notion of 'what if he's stronger than me' probably did enter her head, it was likely squashed into the bottom drawer with the dirty socks and hair gel by her arrogance.

 

Her personal conversation probably went like this;

 

Sensible Semi: "He could be stronger than me, it's likely he's got female channelers and asha'man, plus he's the Dragon Reborn"

 

Arrogant Semi: "I'm a Forsaken. I've survived this long, and LTT was always coercible. Yes he probably has female channelers but like I said - I'm Semirhage."

[Mr Ares]

Bob makes a good point.

From time to time.

For the supposed cream of the crop in the age of legends, the forsaken sure seem to get thwarted easily by a bunch of hayseeds from the Two Rivers.

Cream of the crop at what, though? At which times should the Chosen have won that they didn't?

 

Also, I'm not convinced that arrogance was the reason for Semi's downfall. She was faced with her channeling being detected and her disguise being destroyed before she was able to bring her plan into action. And did she know that that would happen? Did se even know that it could? Were ter'angreal such as those Cadsuane used known to Semi? If not, then she could scarcely have predicted what happened.

[RAND AL THOR]

All presently existing ter'angreal were made during the AoL (exception Elayne's toys). Hence it may be safe to assume that the Forsaken had at least a general idea about most of the ter'angreal that may exist.

 

Demandred mentions during the Cleansing that one of the present AS must have found a ter'angreal that allows the detection of men channeling.

[Mr Ares]

All presently existing ter'angreal were made during the AoL (exception Elayne's toys). Hence it may be safe to assume that the Forsaken had at least a general idea about most of the ter'angreal that may exist.

Cyndane had never before encountered something that would destroy weaves on contact until she faced Alivia. Ter'angreal were made in the Breaking, including Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's sets. Caddy's set being what I mentioned.

 

Demandred mentions during the Cleansing that one of the present AS must have found a ter'angreal that allows the detection of men channeling.

During the Cleansing, you say? Did he think to share this information later? Does the existence of a saidin detector mean there is also a saidar detector? Considering women can sense other women, it would be of far more limited use. And even if there is, it doesn't mean they have something that can dissolve weaves from a distance like Caddy did to Semi.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Then we get to book 11 and find out that, nope, one... just one... of them can preemptively cripple an entire empire all by herself.

Maybe they can cripple empires. But that, as pointed out by Majsju (and as directly stated by RJ: "The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most."), was not their intention. Why destroy when you want to conquer, unless you have to?

 

That was a plan from the Age of Legends, when they had no choice but to fight a war.

 

Nobody gets any cookies until the DO is free.

 

Which stands he greatest chance of being rewarded most?

Amassing troops and fighting a needless war, running the risk of defeat?  While the DO languishes in prison?

Crippling the enemy's ability to resist and devoting all your efforts to breaking the big guy outa jail?

 

Once the big kahuna is free, you can always go back and gather up whatever you want out of the wreckage.

[Asmo]

Maybe I ought to rephrase things a little.

 

It is obvious that Rand and his company would suspect the meeting was a trap. Semirhage should have known that.

 

It is obvious that Rand has two sa'angreal with which he can wipe out cities and continents. Semirhage should have known that.

 

It is obvious that men are on average stronger than women. If the damane Semirhage brought along were the strongest, there's still a good chance the strongest Asha'man which Rand would have brought would still be stronger. Semirhage should have known that.

 

It is obvious that Rand himself is stronger than Semirhage. A bunch of the males were killed by him, and Lanfear was overpowered, too. Semirhage should have known that.

 

So it's clear that in terms of power, Semirhage and her escort were clearly on the losing side. What you say about them being lulled to enter negotiations and then ambushed is correct, but nothing at all indicates that Rand and the rest would actually release the Power, or even allow themselves to be separated. Worse, if they linked...

 

Semirhage was counting on the off-chance that she could catch them completely off-guard. Even a blind goat would know better than to be completely off-guard in those circumstances though.'

 

Again, Semirhage should have known that. Her plan was doomed from the start.

 

Or it was planned to be doomed.

[RAND AL THOR]

Lanfear was overpowered, too.

 

I can't recall any instance where Rand overpowers Lanfear. When was this?

[Asmo]

Rahvin said Lanfear could not take Rand head-on, and then said that he could handle Lanfear in terms of strength. And Rand grew somewhat stronger since then. Plus during the fight between Rand and Lanfear Rand had an edge until the angreal came into play.

[Mr Ares]

Then we get to book 11 and find out that, nope, one... just one... of them can preemptively cripple an entire empire all by herself.

Maybe they can cripple empires. But that, as pointed out by Majsju (and as directly stated by RJ: "The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most."), was not their intention. Why destroy when you want to conquer, unless you have to?

That was a plan from the Age of Legends, when they had no choice but to fight a war.

You didn't think to check what the author actually said, did you?

Week 5 Question: Did the Dark One or Ishamael, either one, have a say in the placement of any or all of the other Chosen once they were released, or did they all just carve out power bases of their own choosing?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They carved out power bases of their own choosing based on various criteria, one of which I will reveal. (Others are definitely RAFO!) For the most part, Ishamael excepted, they set out to create worldly power for themselves using the methods they favored in the Age of Legends. That is, Moghedien worked from the shadows using subversion, Sammael, Be'lal and Rahvin attempted to seize control of national governments and so on. The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most.

Third Age plan.

[Bob T Dwarf]

trakand makes a very good point.  There's a big difference between intelligence and common sense.

 

asmo -

 

You're basing too much on raw power.  Power minus training and deftness isn't worth much.  With your model, the matador can never defeat the bull.

Some deep plan involving Semi allowing herself to be captured is just too convoluted for even the Forsaken.  She brought a'dam.  She intended to capture everyone who came to that meeting.

 

Mr. Ares -

 

The operative part of your quote is: they set out to create worldly power for themselves using the methods they favored in the Age of Legends.

 

An AoL plan formulated when they had no choice but to fight a war translated whole and entire into the Third Age when they had no need to.  A silly-stupid thing for them to do.  Not at all in keeping with their basic characterization as smart, capable, and deadly.

 

Strategically unnecessary, and tactically useless behavior.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares -

 

The operative part of your quote is: they set out to create worldly power for themselves using the methods they favored in the Age of Legends.

 

An AoL plan formulated when they had no choice but to fight a war translated whole and entire into the Third Age when they had no need to. A silly-stupid thing for them to do. Not at all in keeping with their basic characterization as smart, capable, and deadly.

 

Strategically unnecessary, and tactically useless behavior.

Actually, Bob, that isn't the operative part of my quote. The operative part, as already stated, is: "The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most." The plan was something they came up with in the 3rd Age. The methods used were those they had previously favoured. This plan, if successful, would have seen them conquer their own empires and overrun the light without the need for a war. Semi became Truthspeaker to the heiress to the Seanchan Empire. Wait till the Empress has an "accident" and you are Truthspeaker to the Empress. Control her, you control the empire. Simple. Even killing off the Imperial family was intended to make way for an even more tractable Empress, the Darkfriend Suroth. Sammael controlled Illian. A country to be used by a Chosen, not by the Light. Tear was owned by Be'lal. Arad Doman was under Graendal's thumb, Mesaana was controlling the Tower, all without the need for a war - and if they keep control, then in any war that does break out not only have they denied resources to the Light, they have taken them for themselves. Again, they don't merely want to destroy. They want to conquer. And they did so very effectively. Only problem is, Rand was better at undoing their work.

[Majsju]

Be'lals plan to capture/kill Rand and seize Callandor was working until Moiraine came and balefired Be'lal.

 

Rahvin had the upper hand until Nynave interfered, supported by Moghediens strength. The chaos he created by seizing power in Caemlyn is still not completely under control.

 

Sammaels plan worked perfectly until Moridin jumped in and saved Rand. Until his death, sammael controlled one of the strongest armies in randland. And just for fun, he sent the Shaido out to wreck havoc all over the place.

 

Graendal (with some help from the Seanchan) has thrown Arad Domon into a chaos only a fluke could start to repair. And a small detour saw her throw Shara into civil war.

 

Semirhage destroyed the Seanchan empire, and started a civil war. And, came close to capturing Rand, and some very important layers for the Light.

 

Mesaana has split the White Tower, causing 2/3 of the worlds Aes sedai to sit and wait eachother out.

Etc...

 

Seems like quite skilled planning, as all major failures has come from incidents almost impossible to predict.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And wonderful plans they were, too - IF- your object is to become some kind of local satrap.

 

BUT - the object of the exercise is supposed to be - Free The DO.  Those plans do nothing to further that.

 

Supposedly, all of the Forsaken really want nothing less than ultimate power over everyone and everything in existence.  They don't get there by being big frog in a small pond.  They don't get there unless the DO is freed ( and probably not even then - what happens when you choose to go with a boss who places no value on anything but its own desires ).

 

They do get there by decapitating all power blocs capable of impeding any effort to free the DO, just as Graendal and Semirhage managed in Shara and Seanchan.  Something that Graendal and Semi demonstrate they are perfectly and easily able to do.  They're supposed to be smart.  They're supposed to be savvy.  They're supposed to be ruthless.

 

Instead, they're the Keystone Kops.

 

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

BUT - the object of the exercise is supposed to be - Free The DO.  Those plans do nothing to further that.

 

Oh really? That is an interesting...idea. Quite far from correct though.

[RAND AL THOR]

BUT - the object of the exercise is supposed to be - Free The DO.  Those plans do nothing to further that.

 

They can hardly free their boss without finding and destroying the seals.

 

And searching all of Randland for the seals seems to be a pretty daunting and pointless task.

 

The Forsaken's plans have been to weaken the Light as much as possible before TG and they've succeeded quite a bit there.

[Bob T Dwarf]

BUT - the object of the exercise is supposed to be - Free The DO.  Those plans do nothing to further that.

 

They can hardly free their boss without finding and destroying the seals.

 

And searching all of Randland for the seals seems to be a pretty daunting and pointless task.

 

The Forsaken's plans have been to weaken the Light as much as possible before TG and they've succeeded quite a bit there.

 

And, how does what they've been doing get them any closer to the seals?  Finding those is still going to involve a daunting search through all of Randland.

 

Is it going to be easier to search while dealing with organized resistance or while avoiding disorganized chaos?

[Avery]

BUT - the object of the exercise is supposed to be - Free The DO.  Those plans do nothing to further that.

 

Does he need help getting out? Are they doing anything to actively break him otu? It seems that the Dark One is capable of breaking out on his own, but what he needs is people to NOT interfere. By the Forsaken plunging the world into war and chaos, there's no opposition. If the world is even semi-united, there's a chance the patch could be remade. The Forsaken are there to play defense for the Dark One.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

um...guys...i think the DO is doing a PERFECTLY FINE JOB of freeing himself...ya, know, by breaking unbreakable heartstone...

 

the ACTUAL job of the forsaken is to STOP any attempt by the light to seal the bore back up.

 

EDIT: ninja'ed :(

[leo]

This quote connected something that I hadn't seen before and since no one else mentioned it I'll throw it out there.  Here's the quote:

...Semi became Truthspeaker to the heiress to the Seanchan Empire. Wait till the Empress has an "accident" and you are Truthspeaker to the Empress. Control her, you control the empire...

 

Here's what occurred to me:

Perhaps the ambush was set up prior to Mat snatching Tuon.  The intent may have been to get Tuon to handle the negotiations while Semi jumps from behind to snap on the collar.  Tuon probably wouldn't have had a problem with it seeing as she seems pretty stuck to the idea of the DR kneeling to the crystal throne.

Mat snatches Tuon and throws major monkey-wrench into Semi's plan.  She tries to adjust by disguising herself as Tuon and pushing it through. 

As to whether she would have to have been disguised anyway, she probably wasn't sure that Graendal was right until Rand showed that he recognized her.

 

One other thing that's obviously based on the theory I just proposed.  What do we know about her other than that she likes to hurt people?  No one ever talks about her great strategies (unless in the BWB, I have yet to read that), so maybe she's just a little too thick to drop a failed plan and make a new one.

 

edit: easier to quote when you don't spell quote as -qoute-

[Bob T Dwarf]

BUT - the object of the exercise is supposed to be - Free The DO.  Those plans do nothing to further that.

 

Does he need help getting out? Are they doing anything to actively break him otu? It seems that the Dark One is capable of breaking out on his own, but what he needs is people to NOT interfere. By the Forsaken plunging the world into war and chaos, there's no opposition. If the world is even semi-united, there's a chance the patch could be remade. The Forsaken are there to play defense for the Dark One.

 

The DO probably doesn't need any help, just enough time for what it has been doing to finally bear fruit.

 

The Forsaken plunging the world into civil war and chaos is exactly the best way to keep Rand or anyone else from interfering with the DO breaking itself free.  Decapitating each nation's leadership and exterminating the AS is precisely the best way to instigate that warfare and chaos.  But, they don't do that.

 

I've got no objection to the Forsaken making a mistake here or there.  Any semi-realistic portrayal of human activity will contain the odd mistake or two.

 

What I object to is them making the one huge mistake that gives the game away.