How did Aginor find the Eye?

[RAND AL THOR]

Ainor and Balthamel apparently found the eye by tracking the evil of Shadar Logoth that Mat carried.

 

However, isn't this evil to be exactly the opposite of the DO's own evil? We practically have 3 different evils in WOT: The DO, Shadar Logoth and the Finns. Though the Finns are referred to as evil, I don't know what to make of that but that isn't relevant here.

 

We have 2 examples of how the DO's evil opposes the evil of Shadar Logoth:

1) Cleansing. Rand's whole scheme was based on this opposition of the two evils.

2) The wound. The two wounds pulse against each other and keep each other at bay or something like that.

 

So how could Aginor have tracked an evil which is distinctly the opposite of his evil links/connections to the Dark One?

[Guest Dreadlord]

It will be just something like how Warders can sense Shadowspawn. Aginor and Balthamel have encountered the Shadar logoth evil before, hence them recognising it for what it is.

 

Do people really think of the Finns as evil? I would have said neutral myself

[Asmo]

Opposites attract, even if they don't mix. The same principle that was used in the Cleansing. Aginor apparently used the same property to draw himself through his link to the Dark One to draw him to the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

[Bob T Dwarf]

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope.  Mat took a step back, eyes widening.  "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.  But he is not the one we seek." ...

 

That's as much as we get or will ever get.  I've heard the premise that it was the dagger/evil of Shadar Logoth before.  I didn't buy it then, and I still don't.

 

If Jordan was ever going to explain exactly what Aginor meant, what there was about Mat that drew them got changed as the book grew and grew.  SL, the dagger, Ordieth, none of it existed before they got sealed away.  They might have been able to "see" bits and snatches about SL from their unique windows on the passing parade, but experience the evil?  To an extent that they would deem it "an old friend, an old enemy?"

 

I can't offer any alternative or even any wild theory that would fit with Aginor's statement, but anything to do with the dagger or Shadar Logoth just doesn't sit right for me.

[RAND AL THOR]

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope.  Mat took a step back, eyes widening.  "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.  But he is not the one we seek." ...

 

That's as much as we get or will ever get.  I've heard the premise that it was the dagger/evil of Shadar Logoth before.  I didn't buy it then, and I still don't.

 

If Jordan was ever going to explain exactly what Aginor meant, what there was about Mat that drew them got changed as the book grew and grew.  SL, the dagger, Ordieth, none of it existed before they got sealed away.  They might have been able to "see" bits and snatches about SL from their unique windows on the passing parade, but experience the evil?  To an extent that they would deem it "an old friend, an old enemy?"

 

I can't offer any alternative or even any wild theory that would fit with Aginor's statement, but anything to do with the dagger or Shadar Logoth just doesn't sit right for me.

 

Hmmm....yes Shadar Logoth certainly came after their time so for them to call it 'old' is not likely.

 

That would mean that they were guided by some other aspect of Mat-but I see no other.

 

Let us remember that Rand and Mat were tracked in Eye of the World by several DF who claimed that Mat 'drew' them. Whatever this was, it is likely that same as what drew Aginor and  I see no logical explanation other than the dagger.

 

But then again, Aginot's own statement contradicts this.

[Asmo]

Aridhol was tainted 2000 years ago, apparently about a thousand years after the Forsaken were sealed. However, even though the Forsaken were sealed, it is evident that Sammael is aware of Mashadar's capabilities and possibly the tainting nature of the evil of Shadar Logoth. Aginor and Balthamel were sealed much closer to the Bore, so they probably had more chance to experience the occurences first-hand. If the evil in Shadar Logoth was so great that it equalled the Dark One's taint, it would be something that could be felt even outside the Pattern.

[RAND AL THOR]

Only Ishamael was truly free. Aginor and Balthamel were bound loosely but bound all the same.

 

If the evil of SL was strong enough to actually be felt by a bound Forsaken, then I would have expected the whole of Randland to be affected by it. And remember that the Forsaken were in a deep slumber throughout the 3000 year period. It appears that only Ishamael was not sleeping throughout the 3000 years.

[Asmo]

More like a trance than a slumber, actually. From what I gather, they were able to perceive reality, but filtered through the patch that kept the Bore sealed, as if they were drugged. They certainly could catch glimpses of the outside world, as is evident.

 

And as for the whole of Randland not sensing the evil of Aridhol when it swallowed the city... you're completely wrong here. Something powerful doesn't neccessarily have to be felt by everyone. Rand and Nynaeve were holding enough of the Power to melt continents, but only channelers could feel what was happening. The taint of Shadar Logoth would only be sensed by those who could sense something like that. If it is paralleled as an opposite, a counter to the Taint of the Dark One on the Source, that would definately include the Forsaken, who are bound to the source of that Taint.

[RAND AL THOR]

And as for the whole of Randland not sensing the evil of Aridhol when it swallowed the city... you're completely wrong here. Something powerful doesn't neccessarily have to be felt by everyone. Rand and Nynaeve were holding enough of the Power to melt continents, but only channelers could feel what was happening. The taint of Shadar Logoth would only be sensed by those who could sense something like that. If it is paralleled as an opposite, a counter to the Taint of the Dark One on the Source, that would definately include the Forsaken, who are bound to the source of that Taint.

 

I guess you're right here.

 

More like a trance than a slumber, actually. From what I gather, they were able to perceive reality, but filtered through the patch that kept the Bore sealed, as if they were drugged. They certainly could catch glimpses of the outside world, as is evident.

 

 

There I disagree. The Forsaken repeatedly remark on how this Age is different from what they used to live in. They remark on how the Aiel are different from what they were. This does not suggest that they were able to perceive the world as it progressed through the 3000 years. It suggests that they awoke to a world after 3000 years that is vastly different from their own time.

 

Though I understand that not all the Forsaken were in the same state of 'slumber.' They may have had brief insights at certain points but all the evidence suggests that they were not aware of the progress of time while they were held.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Now of course I could be wrong in this, but that hole scence made me believe that it was Mat who lead them their, not because of the dagger.  If you remember back to their last night at the inn, Mat and Rand had the dream, Mat touched the figure in the dream and it became a mirror image of him.  That is what I have always felt led them their, after the battle was over of course, the other two fell into place.  Aginor should not have know about Aridhol, this happend after he was sealed, it has been proven time and time again, the Chosen are much like any other person in the world.

 

I still say Mat and Perrin as well as Rand are people who have spun out time and time again, which would lend some credence to Mat being an old enemy.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

aginor and bathamel(w/e his name is) were caught on the very edge of the bore and were able to catch glimpses of events as they occured in an omniscient manner.  whether they were CONSTANTLY aware or just intermittently, i don't remember, but they WERE aware of AT LEAST the major events(ala aridhol -> shadar logoth).

[maximuswynn]

They tracked the immense portion of siadin within the eye that was being used.

[Ahaz Flagg]

aginor and bathamel(w/e his name is) were caught on the very edge of the bore and were able to catch glimpses of events as they occured in an omniscient manner.  whether they were CONSTANTLY aware or just intermittently, i don't remember, but they WERE aware of AT LEAST the major events(ala aridhol -> shadar logoth).

 

Where is the proof of this?  Why and how could they be considered an acient enemy?  I feel you are grasping at straws.  Even if they had prior knowlede, they still were not an anceint enemy of the Two Chosen who showed up their.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

aginor and bathamel(w/e his name is) were caught on the very edge of the bore and were able to catch glimpses of events as they occured in an omniscient manner.  whether they were CONSTANTLY aware or just intermittently, i don't remember, but they WERE aware of AT LEAST the major events(ala aridhol -> shadar logoth).

 

Where is the proof of this?  Why and how could they be considered an acient enemy?  I feel you are grasping at straws.   Even if they had prior knowlede, they still were not an anceint enemy of the Two Chosen who showed up their.

 

Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=183

 

 

ps, i'm not 'grasping' at anything.  i was declaring facts, not stating an opinion.

[SqueeEGA]

While Mat was in Ebou Dar he was asccosted by a gholam a few times.  The second being when he met Noal, I believe.  If I'm not mistaken Noal asked him if he'd ever encountered anything like it before.  Perhaps his answer 'yes' was reference to the events in the store room, but when I read it I thought of Mordeth.  Did he not squeeze his body through a crack in the wall when he left the boys in the "treasure room"?  If Mordeth were a gholam this could explain the statement 'an old friend, an old enemy.'  Since the gholam are shadowspawn, but the forsaken cannot defeat them.  The FS are wary of gholam, right?

 

I dont think it was a reference to Mat being a reincarnation of someone from a previous life.  I believe that Sammy had called Ishy 'crazy' for saying that the war had raged for all eternity.  As if this were absurd.

 

Ahaz is probably right, though, about the figures.  Seems to fit Occams razor a bit better than Mordeth being a gholam.  Though I dont really see how this would make Mat 'An old thing'  The gholam are a-sexual, and therefore more like a thing than a person.

 

Its certainly not due to the saidin in the eye, since it was not being used until after Aggy and Bathy showed up.

[RAND AL THOR]

They tracked the immense portion of siadin within the eye that was being used.

 

Most certainly not. The saidin was only used AFTER they showed up and they specifically point to Mat and said:

 

An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.  But he is not the one we seek.

 

If they were referring to SL, I am sure that for them to say 'old' 'friend' and 'enemy' they must have been more closely associated with SL than possible. They could hardly have been watching all that went on in the world and then declare SL as 'old friend and enemy.' They were only observing, right?

 

Funnily though, they were apparently the most knowledgeable about current events (according to RJ) and yet they were the first ones to go 'poof!' ::)

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

oh wait...i think i actually remember what was going on...

 

correct me if i'm wrong about any of my assumptions, cause my memory is a bit foggy:

 

if i remember correctly, mat was the only taveren(or at least the first one) to tough his figurine in ishamael's dream traps. as such, they probably figured him as the dragon reborn.  the dragon is certainly an old friend and enemy.

 

as to HOW they were tracking mat, they were probably using their 'find taveren' weave/trick and simply couldn't determine WHICH of the three they were truly tracking(assuming the were using the weave/trick to find the STRONGEST taveren) and simply attributed it to mat, 'the dragon reborn.'

[RAND AL THOR]

oh wait...i think i actually remember what was going on...

 

correct me if i'm wrong about any of my assumptions, cause my memory is a bit foggy:

 

if i remember correctly, mat was the only taveren(or at least the first one) to tough his figurine in ishamael's dream traps. as such, they probably figured him as the dragon reborn.  the dragon is certainly an old friend and enemy.

 

as to HOW they were tracking mat, they were probably using their 'find taveren' weave/trick and simply couldn't determine WHICH of the three they were truly tracking(assuming the were using the weave/trick to find the STRONGEST taveren) and simply attributed it to mat, 'the dragon reborn.'

 

Yes,

But at what point did they learn that Rand was the Dragon?

They inform the gang that they tracked Mat and then immediately say that he is not the one they are interested in.

 

And a flaw in your theory: While they were speaking, they were aware that Rand is the Dragon. Hence it cannot be said that the 'old friend' part referred to Mat. By then they knew that Mat was not the Dragon.

[Mr Ares]

If Mordeth were a gholam this could explain the statement 'an old friend, an old enemy.'

Mordeth is not a gholam. Mat may have been thinking of that, due to the similarities, but they are not identical and Mordeth is not a gholam.

[Asmo]

"An old thing": The dagger is 2,000 years old.

"An old friend": Aridhol destroyed itself, thus crippling one of the major fortresses of the Light, making it easier for the Shadow.

"An old enemy": Aridhol's original purpose was to fight the Shadow, after all.

 

The Shadar Logoth dagger fits all the aforementioned criteria. Like I said, a taint that could create something as strong as the Dark One's taint on saidin must be felt across the Bore, because the Dark One's counterstroke was made from the Bore, anyway. So there is little doubt the Forsaken knew quite clearly what was happening.

[Avery]

Except the Forsaken were bound 3,000 years ago (BEFORE Aridhol) and "friend" and "enemy" are more personal than their "awareness" of the world implies.

[RAND AL THOR]

Except the Forsaken were bound 3,000 years ago (BEFORE Aridhol) and "friend" and "enemy" are more personal than their "awareness" of the world implies.

 

Just what I was trying to say. ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

We've never been ( and my guess is we never will be ) given enough info to figure out what Aginor meant.

 

I think the meaning/significance of that statement is just one of the things that fell through the cracks as the series grew and story lines got modified to fit the wider scope.

[Avery]

I had a feeling that he was talking about Ta'veren-ness; I think that would qualify as a thing, enemy, and friend.

[RAND AL THOR]

I had a feeling that he was talking about Ta'veren-ness; I think that would qualify as a thing, enemy, and friend.

 

That would be too vague. Besides, Rand is much stronger ta'veren than Mat.