How did Rand blunder so badly?

[Asmo]

I mean, what the hell. He has Lews Therin muttering to himself about not trusting. He himself acknowledges that trusting is dangerous. And yet he just scooped up Taim, who is perhaps the least reliable of anyone who has ever offered to help him, and put him in a spot where he can train male channelers any way he wishes and mold them into what he wants. He tells him to watch out for anyone who is too strong or learns too fast, but he simply ignores the fact that Taim fits these criteria. He barely gets suspicious over Taim's apparent immunity to the taint of saidin.

 

For all his talk of not trusting them, Rand has willingly given Taim more authority than any of his followers, trusting that the man will remain loyal, and that he will keep the Asha'man loyal to him, regardless of blatant evidence to the contrary.

 

Why? No matter how busy he was otherwise, Rand should have kept Taim on a short leash, and kept the so-called Black Tower in check from the start. He considered other issues more important, but it should have been obvious even then that the Asha'man would grow to the second most formidable power in the world next to the White Tower, and once the Aes Sedai were divided, they are probably number one now. I could accept some measure of trust post-LoC, since Taim essentially rescued him, but even then Rand admits to himself that he doesn't trust him, and... he still leaves him to do whatever he wants, however he wants it.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Its easy to say that now having seen just how unreliable Taim is, yet look at it from Rands PoV back at the time it happened. rand really couldnt afford to spend the time required to gather and teach people. Taim had previous experience with the Power, which NOBODY ELSE could have had other than Logain, and obviously Logain didnt turn up. Rand had to make a quick decision. If he turned Taim away he might not find anyone else for the job

[RAND AL THOR]

Bur Rand could have regularly checked and inspected the Black Tower. He didn't go there at all since leaving Caemlyn, I believe which is just mad.

 

And he was idle for periods as well, especially in KOD when he is awaiting Bashere. A few quick trips to the BT wouldn't have cost him much. Rand's biggest mistake regarding the BT is not knowing his men. People are not going to be very loyal to you if you do not show your face among them and get to know at least some of them. True that Rand had much to do, but occasional visits to the BT should have been a MUST.

[Elgee]

I agree with you Dreadlord: he had no other option, at the beginning.

 

But as RaT says, he hasn't been there in yonks, and seems to totally reject Logain's warnings. Now THAT really is not the brightest move, IMO.

[Guest Toad]

Agreed.  He had plenty of time to hide out in Tear with Cadsuane and Nyneave.  Would have been prudent to check in on the Black Tower.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes and no.

 

Checking would be prudent, but Rand has some countervailing concerns.

 

The Cleansing took a lot out of him and he needs to recover.  As we see later, he's become almost afraid to channel.  The dizzinesss and weakness seem worse.  He's afraid he'll fall on his face and he knows he doesn't dare appear to be weak.  He'd have to Travel to go there which would require a lot of strength and he'd have to Travel to leave again.  He's probably afraid that if he tried to hold saidin the whole time he was there he might lose it and try to kill Taim.  In addition, holding saidin when there is no apparent need would look both weak and suspicious and be likely to provoke problems.

 

He needs to sort out the situation with Taim, but HOW is the problem given all the personal issues he has with channeling ( and his own temper ) at the time.

[Guest Toad]

True, but apparentl;y doing nothing just allows Taim to solidify his power.  So that when a confrontation does occur, there is potential for a lot more collateral damage that could have been avoided with earlier intervention.  All he had to do was summon Taim and ambush him.  Then reassert his authority at the school.  It appears that Taim's inner circle was still fairly small.

[RAND AL THOR]

True, but apparentl;y doing nothing just allows Taim to solidify his power.  So that when a confrontation does occur, there is potential for a lot more collateral damage that could have been avoided with earlier intervention.  All he had to do was summon Taim and ambush him.  Then reassert his authority at the school.  It appears that Taim's inner circle was still fairly small.

 

Rand doesn't trust Taim. But he also does not believe that Taim is a DF and he does not conclusively believe that Taim 'betrayed' him in any way. Hence he has no reason to ambush and kill him.

 

Rand had plenty of Asha'man. They could have woven the gateways to travel to the BT. Actually that might have been better. When the King enters a Hall, does the King open the doors? No, servants do it. Similarly, the Asha'man with Rand could have done all the weaving. That way, it would not look like a weakness. And I definitely agree that holding saidin while he is in the BT itself would make him look like a chicken.

[Guest Toad]

True, but apparentl;y doing nothing just allows Taim to solidify his power.  So that when a confrontation does occur, there is potential for a lot more collateral damage that could have been avoided with earlier intervention.  All he had to do was summon Taim and ambush him.  Then reassert his authority at the school.  It appears that Taim's inner circle was still fairly small.

 

Rand doesn't trust Taim. But he also does not believe that Taim is a DF and he does not conclusively believe that Taim 'betrayed' him in any way. Hence he has no reason to ambush and kill him.

 

Rand had plenty of Asha'man. They could have woven the gateways to travel to the BT. Actually that might have been better. When the King enters a Hall, does the King open the doors? No, servants do it. Similarly, the Asha'man with Rand could have done all the weaving. That way, it would not look like a weakness. And I definitely agree that holding saidin while he is in the BT itself would make him look like a chicken.

 

He will never learn to trust him if he doesn't spend time with the man.  Killing Taim may or may not make sense for Rand, given what he does/doesn't 'know.'  But Rand seems to spend plenty of time with Cadsuane, Rhuarc, Bashere and other leaders he's relying on - depending on which book you're in.  The Asha'man have potential to be the most powerful weapon ever, seems smart to keep a close eye on it.  Just a bad leadership choice on Rand's part.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Guys do you remember the conversation when Rand says to Bashere "When an enemy offers you two targets..." and Bashere says "Strike a third" He said this after someone tried to kill Bashere and get hold of the Seals. That was the first target, the second was Taim and the Black Tower.

 

This is why Rand hasnt done anything. Rand thinks-well, he knows really-that Taim is a DF and doesnt dare go to the Black Tower because as mentioened he doesnt know which Ashaman are loyal and which are Taims favorites. If he goes there, any of the Ashaman could turn on him, since the Shadow are definitely expecting him to do something about the Black Tower infestation. And so rather than do that he "strikes a third target" to get the element of surprise and begins forming an alliance with the Seanchan. Im fairly sure at teh start or early in AMoL Rand will send Logain to deal with Taim.

 

But yea, he hasnt been to the Black Tower for yonks because he thinks hes beginning to realise the Shadow will make it explode in his face before long, and he doesnt dare do it while he is so weak.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Holding saidin the whole time would make him look weak, but taking the chance that he'd have to channel and then fall flat on his face while seizing saidin would be foolhardy.  He's caught on the horns of a dilemma.

 

Let's try to look at things from Rand's viewpoint for a moment.

 

He's rewritten laws everywhere.  Tairen nobility is now as subject to the Law as commoners.  If Rand goes around offing people for no apparent reason, he appears despotic at best and utterly mad at worst.  Thus he can't afford to take any action against Taim without solid proof of treason.

 

Taim also has a number of points in his favor, no matter what others may think he's up to.

 

First, Taim gave Rand one of the Seals.  Not something a DF would do.

Second, when any Trainee, Dedicated, or Asha'man goes mad, Taim humanely kills them.  A DF would just turn them loose to create havoc.

Third, Taim, apparently on his own initiative, tracked the AS who had kidnapped Rand, and would have tried to free him on his own.

Fourth, to all appearances, Taim has done exactly those things Rand set him to do.  Train Asha'man.  Give them the basics and make them weapons.

Fifth, he's done a remarkable job of recruiting.

 

Where Taim is concerned Rand knows he feels personal antipathy.  He has to account for that when evaluating any negative report he gets about Taim.  

 

Then he has all these other thorns in his side.  Important as the dilemma of Taim is, it's not as immediate, so rightly or wrongly it awaits resolution.

[Guest Toad]

Right, like I said - I'm not sure that killing Taim is the right thing.  But it seems that Rand has gone out of his way to alienate the guy.  Not too smart, whether he trusts the guy or not.

[bjclinton]

I really hope that in AMoL, Rand will give Logain one very straight-forward task:

 

"Find and kill Mazrim Taim"

 

That would be epic.

 

I agree that as of right now, to BoB T Dwarfs points, Rand has enough trust vested in MT that killing him before now wouldn't be at the top of his list. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Another thing for us, the readers, to keep in mind.

 

Our general feeling that Taim is Dark hinges on two points:

1.  Kisman, Rochaid, Torval, and the recollection from one of them about Taim ordering Rand's death.

2.  The infamous "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule."

 

Taking them in reverse order.  That line is part of a children's rhyme.  It's been around for a long time and the situation of Red Sisters bonding Asha'man is just weird enough that it's an entirely apt way of looking at things.

 

We don't really know who gave that kill order.  We only know that he looked like Taim.  We know that any of the Forsaken can disguise themselves to look like anyone.  We do know that Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor ended up participating in the attack.  Could it have been him, masquerading as Taim???

[Asmo]

Uh, actually, I meant WAY before Book 10. I mainly meant in Book 6, where Rand just had Taim ran the business of creating the ultimate living weapons as he wished without the slightest hint of control. He's supposed to distrust the man, but he just let him do as he wished with the Asha'man, assuming he'd somewhy make them loyal to him instead of Taim himself.

 

Post-Book 8, it would seem pretty suicidal to Rand to just wander into the Black Tower, and I agree with that notion. It would be incredibly stupid to go anywhere near there without at least Logain, his loyal Asha'man and Aes Sedai, and all Dragonsworn Aes Sedai, along with Cadsuane and her personal group, Nynaeve and his own guard of Asha'man, so that they could create a big circle and just start shielding everyone if things started getting out of control.

 

And anyway, there's a lot more evidence that Taim is a Darkfriend - more than just a Darkfriend - than the two points you suggested.

[Guest Toad]

So if Taim is a darkfriend, a recycled forsaken, or something else - why is helping Rand, rescuing him, etc...?

 

So he can use Rand to overthrow the DarkOne and become king of everything?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'd be interested in that "lot more evidence that Taim is a Darkfriend - more than just a Darkfriend."

[D24g0n]

I am also interested in the other evidence.

 

Bob, I agree with your reasoning about the kill order and that it could have been a masked Forsaken, but what about the famous "let the Lord of Chaos rule" line?  That is strong evidence in favor of Taim being a DF.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Taim's eyes seemed to bore into her head.  He spread his hands, and it was a mocking gesture.  "What would you have me say?  Fair is fair?  Equal shares?  Accept [sic] 'very well' and ask who will let you bond them.  Besides, you must remember the old saying.  Let the lord of chaos rule."  The chamber erupted with men's laughter.

 

Pevara had never heard any saying like that.  The laughter made the hair on her neck try to stand.

 

"Accept" should really be "Except" there.

 

Just because she's never heard it before, doesn't mean that it isn't an old saying in Saldaea.  Or other places, as well.  She's a Red.  They basically hate and fear all men, but especially men who can channel.  Everything about the Black Tower seems menacing to her.

 

It is a nonsensical situation.  Taim got orders from Rand that Aes Sadai were to be allowed to bond 47 more Asha'man to even things up for the AS that Logain had bonded.  To Taim, and to any Asha'man such an order would seem like nonsense.  But, orders are orders.  So he's complying.   Even though it throws everything he'd previously been told to do into utter disarray.  Disarray = chaos + the boss says do it anyway -> Let the lord of chaos rule.

 

His only real mistake was failing to find out that these Aes Sedai aren't the ones from Salidar.

 

 

 

[Elgee]

"Accept" is the correct word, Bob T Dwarf.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Arrrgh - you're right.

 

I was reading it as him asking a real question.  It's more rhetorical.  He's telling her, "Accept what I already said and don't ask for more."

[Elgee]

Honour to serve  :D

 

She's a Red.  They basically hate and fear all men, but especially men who can channel.  Everything about the Black Tower seems menacing to her.

 

It is a nonsensical situation.  Taim got orders from Rand that Aes Sadai were to be allowed to bond 47 more Asha'man to even things up for the AS that Logain had bonded.  To Taim, and to any Asha'man such an order would seem like nonsense.  But, orders are orders.  So he's complying.   Even though it throws everything he'd previously been told to do into utter disarray.  Disarray = chaos + the boss says do it anyway -> Let the lord of chaos rule.

 

His only real mistake was failing to find out that these Aes Sedai aren't the ones from Salidar.

 

A point: Pevara is one of the few Reds we know about who DOESN'T fear and hate men. That is the reason Tarna went to her in the first place, with the idea of bonding Asha'man.

 

I don't think your theory about Taim getting confused is correct, but I'm basing this on my memory of the last read through, not on having checked, so please correct me if I'm wrong: Didn't Taim knock unconscious one of the Asha'man who started to protest his giving permission to Pevara's gang? That would indicate that he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Blackmoore]

I think people need to recognize Rand's limitations.  He's absolutely mad and he knows it; the man barely keeps it together.  Taim drives the LTT voice in Rand's head into a murderous rage.

 

On top of that Taim is following Rand's orders pretty much to a T.  Logain kind of comes off as a whiner, if you put aside what we know about Taim. 

[DuDZiK]

The simple answer is Author's License; Rand blundered so badly and acted the way he did because the author WANTED him to, in order for the story to progress the way he wanted it to. But that's a bit of a cop-out answer, and not what you're looking for... ;)

 

Rand is not omniscient... and even at that point he didn't have a great deal of experience OR intelligence when it came to dealing with politics. As Rand so often said he was juggling the world and the fates of so many lives for all he was worth, and he had ALOT of distractions: LTT in his head, trying to keep all the cities he had conquered happy and not rioting/revolting, trying to stay alive and plan his moves and deal with all the things that came at him, non-stop, every day. Plain and simple, he was desperate. That's my answer anyways.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Honour to serve  :D

 

A point: Pevara is one of the few Reds we know about who DOESN'T fear and hate men. That is the reason Tarna went to her in the first place, with the idea of bonding Asha'man.

 

I don't think your theory about Taim getting confused is correct, but I'm basing this on my memory of the last read through, not on having checked, so please correct me if I'm wrong: Didn't Taim knock unconscious one of the Asha'man who started to protest his giving permission to Pevara's gang? That would indicate that he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

I didn't mean to convey that I thought Taim was confused.  He certainly isn't.  He knows exactly what he's agreeing to.

 

If anyone is confused in that scene it's Pevara.  The way the book ends, it's very unclear whether she will find any Asha'man who is willing to be bonded.

 

Whether Taim knows that the rebel AS contain no Reds, and thus these could only come from the Tower, is an open question.