Technology in WoT

[Cockta]

Yay, my first thread!

 

I have seen many threads about propheties, and other threads about others tuff, but not a single one about the technology in the Wheel of Time.

 

Well, we know that the technology advances as we move through the series, but I wonder why, at some point there isn't a "industrial revolution" where the technology takes huge leaps forward, as opposed to the previous time, where technology only progressed with small steps.

 

Also, since the sealing of the bore, it has gone over 3000 years when we first meet Rand Al'Thor, and 3000 years is a lot of years for people to get to a stage where they have advanced mechanics, and other devices.

 

If you look at our history, about 1000 BC. humans had about the same technology as they had another 1000 years back, so it really didn't make much difference. About the time when Jesus lived, people still used iron, and weren't exactly advancing nearly as fast as humankind is now. 1000 AC. humans have advanced a bit, so the the rate at which technology is porgressing seem to be a bit faster now. And at last, 2000 AC. human kind have passed the first industrial revolution, but still feel an enormous progress in technology, although the first industrial revolution was 200 years ago.

 

Now, to the main point. How come, after 3000 years, the people of Randland, at least still have approximately the same technology as they had all those years ago. In fact, they had even better technology back then, then they have now.

 

Also, we should look as the War of the Power, and also the trolloc wars, as some sort of world wars for humankind. Here on Earth, a world war didn't amek the human race go backwards in technology. In fact, they moved a lot forward, especially when it comes to military knowledge. In Randland, technology has gone backwards, until Rand became officially the Dragon Reborn.

[RAND AL THOR]

Welcome to the Forums!

 

Well one could say that an industrial revolution is imminent with the 'universities' that Rand just founded.

 

 

And of course, one thing that WOT has but which is absent in our world is the One Power. The Power can do a lot. That would make it unnecessary for related technology to develop. BUT:

 

The obvious absence of strong medical methods is disappointing. While Power Healing is possible, the general populace has no access to this. Someone once mentioned having hospitals with Yellow Ajah sisters. That would be really good.

 

And also remember that technology in the Age of Legends was significantly greater than it is now. Much was lost in the Breaking and never recovered.

But of course 3000 years is time enough for recovery.

 

But overall I would agree that technology does seem stagnant.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

It's not 3,00 years of progress. The War of the Shadow was a devastating war, and by the end they lacked the manufacturing base they had at the start. Bombed back to the Stone Age, as the saying goes. Followed by the Breaking, which reduced the world to barbarism. Followed by a thousand years getting back on their feet. Followed by the trolloc wars sending them back to barbarism, and then another upward climb until the War of a Hundred Years sent them back to barbarism. Then another thousand years to the start of the series. As for an industrial revolution, they are probably not that far off, but give it time. The series only takes place over a couple of years, Rand's academies haven't been open all that time. And there's already a working steam wagon going.

[Luckers]

The closest comparison we have to the cataclysms of the Trolloc Wars and the War of a Hundred Years is the fall of Rome, and it did result in a massive technological, social and cultural reversion--the period we now quaintly name the Dark Ages.

 

And the Fall of Rome has nothing on what happened during the Trolloc Wars--a war lasting three hundred years that destroyed every major organized civic body aside from the Tower--same goes for the War of a Hundred Years. Effectively what we are dealing with is three one thousand year blocs, not one three thousand year one. And i would point out that Ishamael instigated both the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years precisely because humanity was growing too advanced. A person was intention watching over humankind, and whenever anything like innovation or unity or peaces began effect the world, he stepped in to assure that it didn't.

 

Lastly though i would point out that despite what you suggest, social and technological innovation (as a cultural mindset) is a relatively new idea. By which i mean that we grew up in the age of the update. Always something new around the corned, we expect it, and it informs our understanding of growth. But thats an unprecedented social ideal--prior to that innovation came slowly, and the status quo was more or less the expectation. That expectation meant that those innovations would come, at best, one at a time. More, and people became afraid.

 

RJ shows he is aware of this in the dialogue between Rand and LTT about the steamwagons, when Rand shows that he doubts merchants would take to the idea of the steamwagon. LTT laughs, yet Rand's thoughts are actually relatively apt--he has a better view of the people of such a culture than Lews Therin.

 

Thats why we call the industrial revolution a revolution--people resisted until they could no longer.

[Cockta]

Good comments, and thanks!

 

Well, I doubt the universities will last long, because of TG looming, but I think that this time, the humans of Randland will not suffer so greatly as they did in the past.

 

After world war 2, entire cities were razed, but they were reconstructed, and those cities are even bigger and taller than ever before, today, so I still don't think they should have lost so much as they did, and besides, there are books that are so old, and that haven't been read by an Aes Sedai, or anyone for so many years, that the Aes Sedai think that some technology is lost, but in fact it is writen on paper in their own library.

[DemandredFO]

Add to that the fact that in KoD, I think, Aviendha accidently discovers a library ter'angreal.  That sure will help in the rebuilding post TG.  The universities I think will last because TG will cause massive damage but I don't it be as ruinous as the Trolloc Wars or the War of the Hundred Years.  There are two very important differences between the Trolloc Wars and now; Rand cleansed Saidin and the Aiel are present.  That's my read on things at least

[Cockta]

Add to that the fact that in KoD, I think, Aviendha accidently discovers a library ter'angreal.  That sure will help in the rebuilding post TG.  The universities I think will last because TG will cause massive damage but I don't it be as ruinous as the Trolloc Wars or the War of the Hundred Years.  There are two very important differences between the Trolloc Wars and now; Rand cleansed Saidin and the Aiel are present.  That's my read on things at least

 

She did?

 

I have always wondered how the Aiel survived, when the other humans have been wiped out. Ok, I know the Aiel have better soldiers than the rest of the humans, and they can go stealth a lot better, but the humans have real fortresses, and fortified cities. How can not that work against the trolloc army. Oh, they have the One Power.

[DemandredFO]

Yes, in KoD, or CoT, Aviendha discovers that she can read ter'angreal and one of the things She picks up is a library ter'angreal.  Without thinking she touches flows to it and to words come up, roughly tranlated they were fiction and non-fiction.  Then Avi stops channeling and is all upset because she might have harmed Elayne's babes.  Sorry I could give you the exact quote but that's a gist of what happened

[Mysterious]

Good comments, and thanks!

 

Well, I doubt the universities will last long, because of TG looming, but I think that this time, the humans of Randland will not suffer so greatly as they did in the past.

 

After world war 2, entire cities were razed, but they were reconstructed, and those cities are even bigger and taller than ever before, today, so I still don't think they should have lost so much as they did, and besides, there are books that are so old, and that haven't been read by an Aes Sedai, or anyone for so many years, that the Aes Sedai think that some technology is lost, but in fact it is writen on paper in their own library.

 

WW2 was concentrated in the East Asia/Pacific and Europe. The fact that Britain and USA survived, relatively intact in Britain's case, with their infrastructure and knowledge base intact greatly helped the rebuilding process. The Marshall Plan to help finance the reconstruction also helped a great deal as well.

 

None of these two factors developed in the intervening years after the breaking. Rhuidean could have helped the rebuilding of civilisation as it was relatively isolated from the horrors on other mainland continents but it was made to serve another purpose.

 

There are only two stable concentration centres of civilisation that has been constant in Randland and that's Tear and Tar Valon. Though their libraries are great they don't have the mechanisms to make use of them and even with their wealth they would not have been able to finance those projects especially if their fielding large armies for defence.

 

Another aspect that has kept technology and civilisation going has been the Sea Folk.

 

 

These ships, far superior to any other oceangoing vessels in both speed and manageability, are the key to the Atha’an Miere’s unquestioned dominance of the sea trade. Spared the ravages of both the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years, they were able to develop their seafaring technology undisturbed. Now that technology, coupled with the paralyzing conservatism of the mainlanders, maintains their edge.

 

 

The Sea Folk also developed the most widely used Calender system:

 

 

The current calendar is the Farede Calendar, created by Urin din Jubai Soaring Gull, a Sea Folk scholar, and promulgated by the Panarch Farede of Tarabon, who was the first Panarch and who tried to make Tanchico the intellectual center of the known world. Recording years of the New Era (NE), the Farede Calendar sets the first year after the War of the Hundred Years as 1 NE. By 50 NE the Farede Calendar was in general use.

 

The Farede Calendar sets 10 days to the week, 28 days to the month, and 13 months to the year. The months are: Taisham, Jumara, Saban, Aine, Adar, Saven, Amadaine, Tammaz, Maigdhal, Choren, Shaldine, Nesan, and Danu.

 

 

It's the little part about the "paralysing conservatism" with Ishmael sending a couple of hundred thousand trollocs through the blight that has essentially held them back from going any further.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Cockta]

Hmmm, well, you are correct on that one Mysterious, that the people of Randland were tossed back when it comes to technology.

 

Also, I still don't think that TG will inflict so much damage, because it is different than before. Now, the Light seem to be ahead of the Dark, and we know approximately all the people that will go over to the Dark, like Taim, and his Ashaman.

[RAND AL THOR]

Now, the Light seem to be ahead of the Dark, and we know approximately all the people that will go over to the Dark, like Taim, and his Ashaman.

 

Actually, those guys have already gone over.

And I don't think the Light is in a strong position.

May I point out some things:

 

1) White Towers is broken. Messana is successfully turning every Ajah on each other.

2) The Seanchan hold half of Randland-more or less-and Rand STILL doesn't have a truce with them.

3) Arad Doman is not in good shape. No proper leadership.

4) Food is spoiling rapidly. It is becoming increasingly difficult to feed the population.

5) Andor has just reached the end of Civil War. Time for recovery is needed.

6) Borderlander armies are not in the Borderlands. If TG breaks out before they get back there then the world is screwed.

7) The Prophet is still alive with unknown links to the Seanchan.

8) Several Forsaken remain alive (though admittedly useless).

9) The Black Tower is more or less run by Darkfriends.

 

And now some far more serious problems for the Light:

 

10) Mat just got married. He may be in shock for the next 5 years and may be awakened by the Executioner's Kiss.

11) Faile is still alive.

12) The Sea Folk are mad.

 

The Shadow has been clever in accomplishing most of these things.

[Luckers]

The Light actually stands within four steps of being unified. Those steps are...

 

1. The unification of the Aes Sedai--already in play through Egwene, and to be finalised by the Seanchan attack on the Tower.

 

2. The Seanchan and Rand--already underway, and likely to succeed given the prophecy that Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him.

 

3. The Borderlanders--already underway, Rand will meet with them soon, and though there will we strife with the Aes Sedai, Rand will end in charge--especially with Perrins work.

 

4. Aes Sedai/Seanchan. An assualt on the Aes Sedai is planned by the Seanchan, yet Tuon will help Egwene out of a tought bind (as per the sword-woman dream). My guess is a Trolloc assault on the Tower, nearly crushing the Aes Sedai but repulsed when the Seanchan attack out of the Tower.

 

Of them all only the last is blurry, and it too is underway. The Lights in a better position than it appears. Certainly better than the Forsaken realise.

[RAND AL THOR]

All are underway.

 

How much time will there be between the completion of all those tasks and the commencement of Tarmon Gaidon? Virtually none. After all this unification, how much time for people to get ready for TG? none. The AS at the moment are not prepared for TG at all. They are only concerend with each other. So far not even one AS has considered going to the Blight when TG begins. Instead they are squabbling about getting their rooms back in the Tower. So after all the reunion, do they have the time,resources and energy to rapidly prepare for TG? I think not.

The same with the Borderlanders. The army needs to be positioned and the entire Borderlands fortified. Doesn't happen in a day or two.

[Bob T Dwarf]

TG will probably start sooner than anybody is really prepared for it to begin.

 

Rand caught the Dark sorta flat-footed by Cleansing saidin.  While the Dark had the only access to pure saidin, they had both a strategic and a tactical advantage.  Every day they postponed, the Light got a little weaker because of the effects of the taint.  Rand deprived them of that.

 

Now they've gotta change direction in a hurry.  Possibly leading them to kick things off before they are as prepared as they intended.  Or as they need to be.

 

Rand's got loose ends to tie up, for sure.  But, so does the Dark.

[DemandredFO]

well most of the unification will happen concurently with Tarmon Gaidon.  The borderlands will not be fortified, I know there was a thread of Lan reaching Tarwin's Gap.  He will either it in time and get beaten back or he will find sheinar destroyed and follow the Trollocs to Tar Valon.  I think the seanchan/Aes'Sedai alliance will be more of a forced marriage than anything else at least for the time being.

[Cockta]

OMG, you guys know so damn much about the series, and everything!!

 

I think approximately the entire world will bee forced to unify itself at the very moment TG has begun. There will be no more squabbling, and infighting, because they will have to face a greater problem, than to get their rooms, or whatever.

 

This is a classic scenario, where everyone must come together to destroy the ultimate evil.

[Cockta]

Ok, I know this is a double post, but whatever.

 

Now, this really doesn't have any direct connection with technology, but I want to adress this too.

 

It seems that citizens of Randland seem to be a little, well, lazy, of some sort. They want everything to be the same, and that nothing will change that.

 

Now, my example is medical care. Here on Earth, some people can exploit the situation, and become succesful and rich. I know that there are women that use herbs to heal, and that there are Aes Sedai that are dedicated to Healing, but why on earth hasn't anybody come up with the idea that, with enough money, it doesn't have to be a noble, some people can start a clinic in a major city, for example. They would hire a woman, or maybe even more women that have skills with healing with herbs, and such. For some cash, a person could have his life saved, because there is actually a center to where they can bring the sick one.

 

Also, it could be opposite. There could be a center, but the women, lets call them doctors, would be notified that there is a sick person somewhere, and they would travel to that person, or to that house, fot that matter.

 

Well, this was just an example of how much could be improved in Randland, and that it doesn't take a king/queen, a noble, or the Dragon Reborn to start something big. I think that succesful merchants could easily start a small clinic, and as time passes, they will be able to get more nurses, and doctors. This will also make competition, because people will start do this in every city and town, and it would benefit everyone, and those who own the hospital.

[Mysterious]

It comes down to "paralyzing conservatism" of the mainlanders.

 

1. Nobles are rich, peasants are poor. The Nobles want to make sure it stays that way.

 

2. All scientific/social pursuit have stopped since the Hundred Years' War.

 

3. There has been low to negative birth rates for a long time. I think it is highly unlikely that it is natural short of prolonged conflicts and disease.

 

4. There may actually be people with these sort of ideas but a) May not have the capital or political clout to get things done and/or b) May be taken out by the shadow as a threat.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Cockta]

You imply in the last question, argument, or whatever, that the Dark One is the godfather, and all the forskane/darkfriends are part of his family, and they all enjoy pasta, and pizza!!

 

Just kidding.

 

Well, that is the problem of basically all people on that planet, not just in Randland. They are so fucking conservative, that they would rather stagnate, than change something. Of course, the nobles having the golden rule of " nobles are rich, while peasants are poor" seem to make them very like some politicians I could name.

[Luckers]

All are underway.

 

How much time will there be between the completion of all those tasks and the commencement of Tarmon Gaidon? Virtually none. After all this unification, how much time for people to get ready for TG? none. The AS at the moment are not prepared for TG at all. They are only concerend with each other. So far not even one AS has considered going to the Blight when TG begins. Instead they are squabbling about getting their rooms back in the Tower. So after all the reunion, do they have the time,resources and energy to rapidly prepare for TG? I think not.

The same with the Borderlanders. The army needs to be positioned and the entire Borderlands fortified. Doesn't happen in a day or two.

 

I wrote a thread specifically about how those events will work in given the relatively short time before Tarmon Gai'don begings--its called A Memory of Light:  The Plot. It might help.

[Cockta]

But what about my idea?!

 

I want people to post what they think, and if it is feasible, and such.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's a good deal of recent evidence that the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans were far more technologically advanced than had been previously thought.  Especially in the areas of mechanics and hydraulics.  Untold treasures of knowledge were lost with the final burning of the Library of Alexandria.

 

The level of technology extant in 1000 AD Europe was largely well behind what had been known and fairly common over 1000 years previously.  So, our world parallels the world of WOT.  Or, it parallels our reality.  Except that WOT has been repeatedly knocked back down to a primitive pre-industrial level.

 

Not too surprising that they're as technologically backward as they are.

[Llewin]

Agreed! The ancient world was extremely advanced technological in almost all of the ways that matter to us today. The notable exceptions were metalurgy, perhaps astronomy, and the extremely advanced theoretical sciences... (speaking as a layman here with regard to 'theoretical sciences' so don't bite my head off...but if you want to educate politely, feel free)

 

Some examples...

 

physicians/surgeons in the ancient world performed successful brain surgery!

 

there is strong evidence that even though they did not have the ability to make ships out of metal, due to a lack of metalurgical technology, the people of the ancient world actually built super-barges to transport goods around the mediterranean...ships as big as the giant steel behemoths we use today to transport goods...

 

engineering reached heights that we still seem incapable of topping, and in some cases matching today... for example, the roman empire invented waterproof concrete and used it to create man-made harbors...

 

etc.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not to mention that nobody has yet really figured out how the Egyptians built the pyramids.  Lotsa theories.  Most of 'em pretty "out there."  But, nothing solid.

 

The Greeks had water clocks that not only told the time, but the date and phase of the moon.

 

The Romans had huge milling complexes ( remains still visible in southern France ) powered by an incredibly sophisticated water system.

 

It goes on and on...

[Cockta]

Also, the canal system under the Colosseum, is tilted exactly 2 degrees downward, so the water can flow without getting "stuck".

 

Also, in the Colosseum, the romans have managed to make the exits in such well placed places, that everyone can manage to get out of theColosseum, in just four minutes! Stadiums of the day can barely match that!

 

And the list goes on and on...

 

It is also rumored, that if the Library of Alexandria wasn't burned down, we could have lived today, as we will live in 500 years, so it says something of all the knowledge stored in that library.