Why did the female Choden Kal melt, and not the male?

[RAND AL THOR]

Why did the female Choden Kal access key melt, and not the male?

 

Both were used.

Only one melted.

???

 

Also, we have evidence that there are at least 2 female access keys. Egwene finds a broken one in TAR.

So are there any other male keys? I think it is possible. Imagine if Rand uses the male choden kal at TG and only feels half its power in him. He turns and sees Moridin waving at him, holding another key!

[Luckers]

Why did the female Choden Kal access key melt, and not the male?

 

Well, since less saidar was used than saidin, it was not because of over-stressing the capabilities of the sa'angreal. Ergo it had to be a difference in the way the two were used. Saidar was used in the Cleansing as an active force, to compress saidin and effectively 'wring' the taint out of it like it was a dirty washcloth. Saidin was only a passive comment, drawn and past through, yet being used to exert no specific results.

 

So that would be my guess. The female sa'angreal was strained in the effort of what it was forced to do. As the active force in the entire event it face active resistance and was as such put under the most strain. In addition, the length at which it was over-strained comes into play, for Moghedian wonders that the Choedan Kal manage to survive such continuos use, at such a degree. The passive male element survived, the female, with the extra effort of causing the cleansing, did not.

 

Also, the female sa'angreal on Tremalking itself melted as well as the access key.

 

Also, we have evidence that there are at least 2 female access keys. Egwene finds a broken one in TAR.

So are there any other male keys? I think it is possible. Imagine if Rand uses the male choden kal at TG and only feels half its power in him. He turns and sees Moridin waving at him, holding another key!

 

It's possible. Several were made for both. I think its probably unlikely, but still possible.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think the female Choeden Kal melted because Nynaeve wasnt up to the challenge. Her strength as in raw power was enough but her endurance wasnt. In the Cleansing she said she couldnt go on (I think?) but Rand stuck it out. That'll be why, because Nynaeve faltered towards the end

[RAND AL THOR]

I thought that during the cleansing, saidar was used as a 'tube' and saidin was funneled through it to Shadar Logoth. As saidin was forced into Shadar Logoth, the evil taint on saidin came into close proximity with the evil of Shadar Logoth (which were both evil but opposing). The interaction of the two 'evils' resulted in the utter removal of the Taint on Saidin as well as the utter destruction of Shadar Logoth itself.

 

I think of it like a particle and anti-particle collision where both destroy each other.

 

If this is correct, then saidar was only a conduit and did nothing other than ensure that saidin flows into Shadar Logoth and not elsewhere. I could be wrong of course.

 

I think the female Choeden Kal melted because Nynaeve wasnt up to the challenge. Her strength as in raw power was enough but her endurance wasnt. In the Cleansing she said she couldnt go on (I think?) but Rand stuck it out. That'll be why, because Nynaeve faltered towards the end

 

But she made it through to the end all the same. In my view, Rand would also have said that it was difficult to hold on but remember that by Book 9 , Rand is as hard as steel. So he doesn't complain. In his POV during the cleansing he expresses the same thoughts. He found it increasingly difficult to hold on but did so anyway. But he didn't voice it aloud. Same with Nynaeve except that she did voice it aloud.

 

And the idea that the sa'angreal itself could possibly be destroyed if the channeler is not capable of  maintaining the flow would be a serious flaw in the sa'angreal. Why would the AoL AS have made it with such a flaw, considering the time and effort spent on making it and the hunge importance of the Choden Kal to the women who signed the Fateful Concord?

[Asmo]

It melted because Rand was a complete n00blet in using saidar, and tried to force it into doing what he was supposed to let it do by itself, which would normally result in the channeler being burnt out and all sorts of destructions happening, but probably because he was the Dragon Reborn and linked to boot, it couldn't happen. When the strain went over the capacity of the sa'angreal to contain, it collapsed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's attempt to straighten something out.

 

There was no flow of saidin.

 

Just like electricity, saidar was the conduit and saidin was the wire.  Shadar Logoth was the load to which the wire was connected.  The taint flowed along the 'surface' of saidin into Shadar Logoth, but no saidin flowed into Shadar Logoth.

 

Now, as to why functioning as a conduit was more stressful than functioning as the wire???

[the dude]

could also be as simple as one burnt out, and one simply didn't.  a piece of equipment with a defect might break the first time you use it, or the tenth.  or never, if you're lucky.  the odds of the latter seem low, but nevertheless.

 

my guess would actually be story convenience:  jordan may have wanted to use the male choedan kal later in the story, and further, needed the female one to melt because (1)  it demonstrated that they can in fact be destroyed through intensive use (bearing out previous claims by characters) and (2)  it triggered the mass suicide in knife of dreams, another important story element.

[Luckers]

The issues raised--Nynaeve was strong enough to use the Choedan Kal. So thats out.

 

And Rand being inexperienced with saidar would have cause problems for him, or in the direct effect. So that too is out.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

I agree with Luckers.

 

Rand tried to force it to form the conduit but it was all curling and spiralling about and doing other weird feminine stuff but he let it do so. He states that it doesn't matter what it did as long as it formed the conduit.

QUOTE WH:

 

He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The

weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower. There was nothing to see, no grand weaves sweeping

down from the sky. The Source lay at the heart of creation. The Source was everywhere, even in Shadar Logoth. The conduit covered distance beyond his imagining, and had no length at all. It had to be a conduit,

no matter its appearance.

 

So nothing was really forced.

 

Also, QUOTE WH:

 

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth.

 

So we DO have a flow of saidin and it did enter Shadar Logoth.

 

And ALSO, QUOTE WH:

 

Inside his head, Rand was screaming. He was sure that he was screaming, that Lews Therin was screaming, but he could not hear either voice in the roar. The foul ocean of the taint was flooding through him, howling with its speed.The taint was moving. That was all that counted, now. He had to hold on!

 

So this last quote disqualifies the idea that Rand was more 'capable' than Nynaeve.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth.

 

It flowed only so far as to touch Shadar Logoth; to make the connection.  It didn't flow into Shadar Logoth.  Only the taint did that.  Saidin was the wire, the taint was the free electrons flowing along the surface of the wire; one evil attracted by the opposite polarity of the evil within Shadar Logoth.

 

Presumably, the effort of maintaining the conduit of saidar, and the work it did in compressing the wire of saidin was what did in the female CK and its access key.

[RAND AL THOR]

I disagree.

 

Theoretically, saidar is not doing any work in keeping saidin compressed. Saidin compressed itself due to the opposing push of saidar. Rather like north pole and north pole. One could say that Rand was forcing them into close proximity but then both are doing an equal amount of work in preventing each other from touching. They are repelling each other.

 

Hence one cannot be said to be doing any more work than the other.

 

And yes, I think you are right that saidin touched, but did not enter SL. We can think of it as an oil spill in the sea. Now imagine forcing that contaminated water into a channel- and place a block on that channel that is just high enough to to allow only the oil to enter beyond the block. Something like that, I guess. Did anyone understand that?  :D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Although it's confusing as ****, saidin and saidar have to both be thought of as equal monopoles, bearing the same polarity.  Two North Poles, if you will, which is why they repel each other rather than attract.

 

Now, when the conduit of saidar attempts to push the nearby saidin away, the saidar on the opposite side of the tube has to push it back.  The stress from all sides, as the saidar attempts to collapse into a single stream is what forces the saidin to thin and elongate.  The saidin itself only has to expend enough energy to remain coherent, since it is supported on all sides by the pressure from the surrounding saidar.  But the saidar, having no surrounding support against the repelling pressure from saidin, has to work extremely hard in order to remain integrated.  The saidin merely needs to "be".  The saidar has to do all of the work of holding the combined working together.

 

So, the female key and the female CK itself get vastly overworked and fail.

[the dude]

or, it's what worked best for the story.  8)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Only in a series from what most around here would consider a hack author.

 

Jordan is supposed to be above such silly trickery.  He employs scientific principles.  There's rules about how things work in Randland - ones that have at least a passing acquaintance with reality.

[the dude]

mmm, thanks for the condescension, bobby, and reminding me why i don't come around the book discussion boards anymore.  take 'er easy, guys.

[RAND AL THOR]

saidin and saidar have to both be thought of as equal monopoles, bearing the same polarity.  Two North Poles, if you will, which is why they repel each other rather than attract.

 

 

There is one problem with comparing saidin and saidar to anything in the REAL world (that would include pos/neg charges, north/south poles or any other thing with oppostites).

 

That is:

While saidin and saidar work against each other, they also work WITH each other. That is one thing that I don't understand at all but I must admit that it sounds really cool when you read it. ;)

 

or, it's what worked best for the story.   8)

 

Possible. Any author has a plot and he needs certain things to happen. He would then plan how to being about that event in a convincing manner. I have seen a few instances where the cover is weak in WOT but this is a major thing- I doubt any author could pass it off on that excuse. There must be a valid reason. Strangely, nobody (not even Cadsuane) who was AT the cleansing wonders why the key melted (they are not aware that the Choden Kal itslef is gone).

[Llewin]

You know... it could be as simple as both of them were strained to the limit of breaking... both had a chance of breaking/melting... the Saidin one dodged the bullet, the Saidar one didnt...

 

 

AND..perhaps...the Saidin one actually was damaged but not noticably... or weakened so that it will melt the next time it is used..

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ooooooohhhhhhh... You've got way too nasty an imagination.

 

Sadly, I think you might be right.

[RAND AL THOR]

AND..perhaps...the Saidin one actually was damaged but not noticably... or weakened so that it will melt the next time it is used..

 

Rand faces DO at the Bore and screams "Prepare to die, Shai'tan!" He pulls at saidin through the access key and feels the Choden Kal glowing far off in Carihien. The DO's shadow rises threateningly to cover the heavens and and the banners of the Light are lost in the Dark.

 

And then he felt the key melt in his hand and saidin vanished at once. He reached for the source and found he couldn't touch it.

 

He was burned out. LTT giggles, "I told you so!"

 

Sweating profusely, he turns to Nynaeve for immediate healing, but finds that the corruption of the blight has given life to her braid and she is now battling savagely with it while it attempted to throttle her.

 

Cursing the idiot who designed the Choden Kal, Rand slowly edges behind Jead'en and tries to stay alive till the tinkers come to sing the song.

 

Tinkers don;t come.

Bore bursts open.

Creator yells obscenities at Rand.

WOT broken.

World remade in Dark' Ones image.

DO made King, and Creator imprisoned.

DO kills all Forsaken and DFs.

DO sits atop Mount Olypmus and watches the destruction in satisfaction-and then thinks, "Okay I'm free now. Eons of plans and escape attempts have finally suceeded. What now?"

 

That would be one HELL of an ending. Cliffhanger for possible sequel too.

[benr]

A chilling thought: maybe the melting was just a symptom; maybe all of the taint didn't go into Shadar Logoth; maybe saidar has been tainted.

[RAND AL THOR]

A chilling thought: maybe the melting was just a symptom; maybe all of the taint didn't go into Shadar Logoth; maybe saidar has been tainted.

 

I am really going to assume that you are joking here.

If you are serious, then:

WHAT IN THE SEVEN HELLS ARE YOU SAYING?

 

saidar tainted? *gasps and faints hysterically*

[Lews_Windu]

I doubt that Saidar was tainted, as that would imply that it's impossible to fully remove a taint short of an act of the Creator- when we know that somehow both halves end up clean for when LTT and crew roll around once more.

 

 

What I think it might be, is an example of the DO tampering with reality. Everything he does, is aimed to get the Light as weak as possible at Tarmon Gai'don- the heat, the coming famine, the rends in reality. I think this tactic also extends to attacking the Power itself, or rather, Saidar. We know for a fact that Saidar weaves are weakening and failing outright, could it be the DO trying to create a weak point through which to hurt the Light?

[RAND AL THOR]

We know for a fact that Saidar weaves are weakening and failing outright

 

Where is this happening?

[Luckers]

Theoretically, saidar is not doing any work in keeping saidin compressed. Saidin compressed itself due to the opposing push of saidar. Rather like north pole and north pole. One could say that Rand was forcing them into close proximity but then both are doing an equal amount of work in preventing each other from touching. They are repelling each other.

 

I disagree, equal repulsion would cause saidar to pull out. In order for saidin to have been compressed saidar would have been forced to hold firm against the repulsion--indeed, constrict in spite of it. This is the strain that caused the female sa'angreal to melt.

 

 

[balefire]

Rand al thor, we see various point of views in KOD of white tower/rebel  aes sedai feeling the weaves failing. Despite the 'keeping' weave, food is still spoiling, both in WT and the rebel aes sedai camp. The wards in the white tower are also failing as well, rats are entering the white tower. I think in one POV, elaida asks her keeper to make sure the the wards around the tower are woven again. There was also a Romanda POV that sisters refuse to even consider the possibility the saidar itself is failing etc.