The Battle Ajah

[Elgee]

Sammael did not take the oath, therefor he can form the gateway full knowing that it might kill someone.

 

If they place the gateway in the Tower that will risk killing someone and for most that would probably prevent the gateway from forming.

 

ie: most would not be able to FORM the gateway if they thought doing so might kill someone - it refers to the person forming the gateway, not the actual mechanics of the gateway itself.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Ah I see. I misread the post. I thought he was talking about the seanchan opening the gateways. Better get some specs.

[RAND AL THOR]

Here's a question for you then--why are sisters bound to write the truth? They are, we've seen that in their thoughts, yet the oath they speak is just that... 'to speak no word that is not true'.

 

:)

 

Absolutisms don't really work in real life.

 

Fires of Heaven page 860.

Rand is talking:

 

"I assume an Aes Sedai can't write a lie more easily than she can speak one?" He did not wait for her nod "If ALviarin had been less flowery.......

 

What does this mean? Did Moiraine nod or not?

 

If she didn't nod-and Rand never noticed- then we have a whole load of possibilities.

[Luckers]

Pevara and Seaine also reveal it. In the beginning the search for sisters who have written down something that was not true, and set to searching the records.

 

It depends on the sister as to whether she attacks darkfriends or foresaken.  Just look at Ebin, he got killed at the cleansing because Daigion was dithering.

On another point, I agree that if the rebels invade the Seanchan occupied tower by gateway they will encounter problems.  If they place the gateway in the Tower that will risk killing someone and for most that would probably prevent the gateway from forming.  If they put it inside the walls but not in the tower that would likely defeat the purpose.  This, I think will force a crisis.

 

More than just risking killing someone with the gateway, the idea of creating a gateway for an army to invade through is quite bluntly creating a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

I see this situation as being the only viable way to raise the issue of removing the oaths. Even that i find a stretch, but yes--only possibility.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not really.

 

Consider - they've already used Gateways to transport themselves and their army to Tar Valon.  Any reasonable interpretation of the consequences of such an act would have to include the expectation that said army would, at some point, kill others, and in part be killed in return.  When they did so, they had no way to know whether those gateways would open where somebody presently stood, or whether they might not open directly in the face of forces loyal to the White Tower.  In one case, the gateway would directly cause the death of a presumably innocent person.  In the other, battle would immediately break out.

 

They did it anyway.  Failing to take the next logical step seems excessively squeamish, at this point.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

And, never forget, this series was intended to be a trilogy.  We were never supposed to have time enough to wonder about how the author had organized things, nor find the obvious holes and weaknesses in that organization.

 

 

This continues to amaze me. I still don't get how on earth RJ (whose planning is excellent) made such an error. Originally meant to be a trilogy, how could he make it 4 times as long? That would really be typical of a poor writer but this is not applicable to RJ at all so I am truly clueless why the book ended up going so much longer when he intended it to be shorter. I would have preferred a compression of the latter books. A 8 or 9 book series may have been better, in my opinion.

 

Then you'll love ( hate ) this:

 

The Man from Ganymede from WoTism: How far in advance did you plan the later novels like LORD OF CHAOS and A CROWN OF SWORDS? Did you know the series would be this long when you started?

 

I did not know the series would be this long in the beginning. When I first went to my publisher, I told him, I know the beginning, and I know the ending, and I know what I want to happen in-between, but I'm not sure I know how long it will take me to get from the beginning to the end. Now, don't laugh, but I said to him, "It's going to be at least three or four books, and it might be as many as five or six."

 

Julia from wotism.org: How many books long do you think the Wheel of Time series will end up being? Do you have any idea how long it will take to finish writing the series?

 

I'm not really clear. When I finished A CROWN OF SWORDS, I said it would take me at least three books more to finish. Now that I have completed THE PATH OF DAGGERS, it looks like it will take me at least three more book s to finish. Believe me, guys, I'm trying as hard as I can to get there as fast as I can.

[RAND AL THOR]

Thank you Bob! I love that actually!

 

I am henceforth going to read RJ's interviews myself. Other peoples' interpretations seem to be a bit misleading. I mean, the way he talks here is perfectly understandable.

 

What I find funny though is that even at book 8 he didn't make a reasonable prediction about how many books more! All the better, I guess.

 

As for the gateways, one could say that if any AS makes a gateway, there is the possibility of killing someone. Unless it opens into a pre-determined place that is roped off etc... So Egwene travelling to get near the Tower with her army could be considered as a violation, yes?

 

These oaths are so weird. ::)

[Luckers]

Consider - they've already used Gateways to transport themselves and their army to Tar Valon.  Any reasonable interpretation of the consequences of such an act would have to include the expectation that said army would, at some point, kill others, and in part be killed in return.  When they did so, they had no way to know whether those gateways would open where somebody presently stood, or whether they might not open directly in the face of forces loyal to the White Tower.  In one case, the gateway would directly cause the death of a presumably innocent person.  In the other, battle would immediately break out.

 

Troop movement is logistical--there was no direct expectation on behalf of the Aes Sedai that those gateways would lead to fighting--oh its possible, but that wasn't the intention, the intention was merely to allow them to travel. Creating gateways as the route for a direct assault, with the intention being specifically in aiding the soldiers to get into a place so that they might better attack an enemy--thats military. The direct result would be violence. The direct intention to help men commit that violence by helping them reach that enemy.

 

The first is something any self-respecting Aes Sedai could run mental rings around--the second... if it occurs to the Aes Sedai in the way i layed it out, i doubt they could do it. Of course it may not even occur to them, which might be the only thing that saves them--certainly it didn't occur to Egwene when she was discussing it with Gareth Bryne, and the other Aes Sedai havn't been thinking on it that we know... but still.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's still just troop movement.  It's still just logistical.  It's only a means of moving about. 

 

Initially, on Egwene's capture, they were willing to mount an armed rescue attempt.

 

It isn't a weapon, per se.  And, any Aes Sedai worth her salt would parse the concept finely enough to allow her to do whatever she felt was necessary for the greater good.

 

 

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, but thats quite clearly not true--the greater good dictated that Kiruna and the others join the fight at Dumai's wells, yet they still had to make themselves at threat before they could do so.

 

The strictures of the oaths hold, and using gateways to allow men to attach other men from a surprising and superior position is creating a weapon for one man to kill another. Its not just logistical, its not just movement. By placing them there they facilitate a fight. End of story.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Of course they place their troops at an advantage.

 

That doesn't mean that they'd be incapable of rationalizing doing just that.  They were willing to do whatever it took to get Egwene back.  And, they would have if she hadn't told them not to.

 

If the time ever comes when Gareth Bryne has to attack the Tower, the majority won't hesitate then, either.

[Luckers]

Whilst i think its possible they could do it, it would require them not thinking about it. Were they to concider the realities of it properly i see no way they could rationalize away the issue.

 

And i would point out that rescuing Egwene again allows for dancing around the idea--THAT they could rationalize, their intention was to rescue. Creating gateways to attack the Seanchan has no wiggle room, no alternate puspose to focus on.

[Elgee]

I'm not so sure. A gateway is a method of transport, like getting on a ship or riding a horse.  They have no problem with that (ie riding into battle), so why would they not be able to form a gateway to get them to a battle?

[RAND AL THOR]

I'm not so sure. A gateway is a method of transport, like getting on a ship or riding a horse.  They have no problem with that (ie riding into battle), so why would they not be able to form a gateway to get them to a battle?

 

The Third vow is : I will create no weapon for one man to kill another.

 

Riding a horse or ship doesn't require the AS to create anything. They are merely using what someone else made.

 

But making a gateway with the full knowledge that the soldiers passing through would end up fighting is a different issue, because the AS who took the vow are now actually creating. It is equivalent to making a weapon.

 

I can, however, think of an instance where an AS would be able to create a gateway into Seanchan-held White Tower. Suppose there is a really really naive AS. Another AS (AS no. 2) tells her to form a gateway into the WT. AS no.2 says that they are going to complete the negotiations in the WT itself.

 

Now AS no.1 is stupid enough to believe that( there are plenty of stupid AS) and opens the gateway. Then, AS no.2 blindfolds AS no. 1 and tells her not to panic or something and AS no.2 then pours the entire army into Tar Valon through the gateway.

 

No oath violation. ;D

[Darth_Andrea]

As far as whats going to happen in Tar`Valon, I think it's all going to come down to the Seanchan attack on the city. Brin's army will rush in join with the tower guards and help overwhelm the attacking forces. And The Aes Sedai will counter the channeling of the Damane as much as they can with out killing I think. Unless they can convince themselves their darkfriends or something. But I don't see the tower completly united till after that happens. At which point I believe Egwene will contact Rand find out what he wants them to do and being moveing twards the blight.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

 

[RAND AL THOR]

I believe Egwene will contact Rand find out what he wants them to do and being moveing twards the blight.

 

 

 

;D

 

Somehow, I don't see Egwene asking Rand anything at all.

 

Rand may have to threaten Egwene with the knowledge that he knows about her former masquerading as a full sister to bend her to his will. Even the Amyrlin Seat can be set life long penances. ;D

[DemandredFO]

Egwene will not ask Rand anything, she is already pissed at him because she believes, after hearing one side of the story, that Rand compelled sisters.  She will be extra pissed that his forces have come save the tower from Trollocs.  She will probably wish she had that male a'dam.  The people with Asha'Man warders will probably have to do some heavy negotiating to get the guardians(Asha'Man) and servants(Aes Sedai) to be civil to one another.

[RAND AL THOR]

to get the guardians(Asha'Man) and servants(Aes Sedai) to be civil to one another.

 

The Wheel would have to turn poly-zillion times before that happends.

 

Romanda's POV in KOD states clearly that AS must be in control when bonding Asha'man. With her thinking like THAT, I really can't see any Asha'man agreeing. This will be nniiicceeeeeee.

[DemandredFO]

Asha'man can't be compelled with the warder bond, at least not easily.  Logain certainly will not allow Asha'man to be bullied by AS, and I am still anxiously awaiting what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'Man.  I have no proof but I think it quite possible that the Guardians will end up closer to the True meaning of Aes Sedai than the servants do.  Once again I have no proof that's just my theory

[Mr Ares]

Asha'man can't be compelled with the warder bond, at least not easily.

Asha'man can be compelled very easily if they're not holding the Source. As easily as any other man.

[RAND AL THOR]

I don't think DemandredFO is talking about the actual 'Compulsion' weave here

[Elgee]

Asha'man can't be compelled with the warder bond, at least not easily.

Asha'man can be compelled very easily if they're not holding the Source. As easily as any other man.

 

I think Mr Ares might be right, RAND AL THOR. If I recall correctly, the only incident where we have Aes Sedai NOT being able to compel through the bond, was just after Alana bonded Rand, and I also think he was holding the Source at that moment.

 

We don't have any example of where it DOES happen, either, that I can recall. (The only other example of sorts we see, is Narishma hopping for Merise - but I'm not sure if she's compelling him through the bond, or doing it simply because she's an imposing woman and he's a relatively young chap.)

 

Mr Ares's theory is very very interesting, though.

[RAND AL THOR]

Elgee, what I'm saying is that I'm not sure about how the term 'compulsion' is being used here.

 

The compulsion weave forces someone to bend to the will of the compeller.

 

Is that done through the warder bond? I thought warders swore to obey their AS. Furthermore, almost all AS look at the compulsion weave as something that is intolerable. Why would they use it through the bond?

 

Compulsion through the bond is different from the compulsion weave?

[Mr Ares]

The compulsion weave forces someone to bend to the will of the compeller.

So where is the difference between compulsion and compulsion through the Bond? We haven't really seen any, and we know from a Sammael POV that men holding the Source are immune from compulsion.And the only time Alanna tried to compel Rand he was holding the Source. If we have an ordinary compulsion weave that forces people to the will of the weaver, that doesn't work on men holding the Power and compulsion through the Warder bond that doesn't work on a man holding the Power....where's the difference?

[Elgee]

Compulsion through the bond is different from the compulsion weave?

 

I'm not sure, RAND ... the weaves should be different, but the effects would be the same. Morally, I don't see any difference either.

 

Mr Ares, when you are reunited with your books, could you quote that POV of Sammael? Or give me a rough idea of where to find it? I can't recall at all.

 

I'm afraid I don't quite get what your question is - could you elaborate?