Verin's Warder

[CUBAREY]

Its also possible that She had somehow learned to invert a weave, or make a weave invisable to Shadowspawn.

 

What?

 

We know from Moggy that its possible to make a weave to disguise yourself. We also know that you can invert that weave so that A.S. cann't see the weave. It might thus be possible to create and invert a weave that hides the dissipation of an earlier weave from channelers and/or shadowspawn.

[Mr Ares]

So we have no clue where her warder was.

He was left with the Aes Sedai. He went with them to Tar Valon. He stayed there until she got back to the city.

[benr]

A few things...

 

Verin has never used Compulsion, and nothing suggests she knows how to do it, quite the contrary. The weave some of you refer to as Compulsion is something she has puzzled out on her own, and it is quite far from actual Compulsion. Her weave can not force anyone to do something they would never do without the weave, she is only encouraging something that is already there. Also, she needs her subjects to trust her. Compare this to the real Compulsion we have seen, and you will see there is a huge difference.

 

Whether or not even such a weak weave as her is forbidden by Tower law, so what? There is no Oath demanding Tower law to be obeyed, Aes Sedai are just expected to follow it, and we have seen plenty of examples where individual Aes Sedai choses to ignore the law when there is need.

 

Also, while we do not know exactly what Verin encouraged the prisoners to do, Elzas POVs and the prisoner swearing oaths to rand gives quite a good hint. Now, giving Rand a bunch of loyal Aes Sedai seems to be of very little benefit to the Shadow.

 

It is also worth keeping in mind how she motivates her words about the weave not being harmful in her mind, so it is not a lie. A BA would of course not need to do this.

 

As for the Horn, Verin gives it to Siuan, so Siuan can do whatever she pleases with it. And on the road from falme to Tar valon, she has the best opportunity any single character in the series has had to kill Mat. She Heals him on a daily basis, she constantly tells the wonder girls the Healing might not be enough. Just a little slip, and mat is gone, and noone would suspect anything. But instead she keeps him alive, and helps him recover completely to run off into the great unknown. Seems like a very stupid plan if Verin had been a BA plotting to secure the Horn for the Shadow.

 

Verin is a mysterious character, true. But I see no actions that could raise suspicions about her being BA, quite the contrary.

 

Yes.  Compulsion is not what this is.  My error.  However, what she is doing is NEVER explicitly presented as for the DR's benefit.  If the goal is to get Rand to TG, then having AS pledged to him will help.  Some of those pledged to Rand (whether thru Verin's "suggestions" or otherwise) are Black. 

 

About the Mat healing on the trip back to TV, I see her goal is for the Shadow, not necessarily the BA.  She is becoming imbedded in the Light; a mostly unsuspected mole. No one else has accomplished that, as far as I can figure out. Keeping Mat alive also means she knows who controls the Horn.  If we assume that she supports the Light, the actions make sense one way.  If we assume she is Dark, then they make sense in getting her to TG with Rand's team, and with access to the horn.  I don't think she is Black in the traditional BA; I see no evidence of her being part of any of the cells.  She is working towards her own goals, and serving the Dark.

 

There is one person that might suspect Verin is a DF.  We might see that when Moiraine gets back.  Remember, when Verin reached Ingtar's party just after Rand had disappeared, she said:  "Moiraine Sedai sent be, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile.  "She thought you might need me."  Then, at the end of tGH, after Rand's epic battle, Rand and Moiraine have this discussion:  Rand:  "What you could.  You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I am no sheep, Moiraine.  You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not."  Moiraine:  "I did not send Verin.  She did that on her own..."  This is a direct contradiction of Verin's statement; one of them is lying, and I'm sure it isn't Moiraine. 

 

I'd like to be able to decipher her little journal.  Might give me some answers.  I will RAFO, but will be surprised if she isn't Black.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Someone set that attack up, and it was set up so that the embassy failed.  If not Verin, then who?''

 

Maybe. But Verin knows what a Aiel looks like and at least one of those ``Aiel'' in the attack on Demira was plainly no such thing---the text is explicit on that point:

 

``That remembered face was thrust into hers, black eyes mocking , ..."

 

(middle of Ch. 46, ``Beyond the Gate'', <i>Lord of Chaos</i>, p. 817 in the paper edition). Verin knows that Aiel do not have black eyes and are not ``a squat fellow with villainous eyes'' (ibid). Would Verin make such a mistake? Could she count on Demira not knowing what Aiel look like? (And the other sisters at the  if Demira mentions that detail in telling the others in the embassy what happened to her.)

[Mr Ares]

There is one person that might suspect Verin is a DF.  We might see that when Moiraine gets back.  Remember, when Verin reached Ingtar's party just after Rand had disappeared, she said:  "Moiraine Sedai sent be, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile.  "She thought you might need me."  Then, at the end of tGH, after Rand's epic battle, Rand and Moiraine have this discussion:  Rand:  "What you could.  You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I am no sheep, Moiraine.  You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not."  Moiraine:  "I did not send Verin.  She did that on her own..."  This is a direct contradiction of Verin's statement; one of them is lying, and I'm sure it isn't Moiraine.

The truth you hear isn't always the truth you think you hear. People have brought this up before, and it is far from certain that Verin was lying. Plus, we see from her own POV in Path of Daggers that she is still bound by the First Oath, because we see her going through the usual twisting of words, making sure that what she says is literally true, but gives an impression different from what the truth actually is. As for the rest of your post, you still have shown absolutely no evidence in favour of her being black - the best you can manage is "she's a DF AS but not BA", which is wholly unsubstantiated.

[Elgee]

What I've always found interesting is that Tomas did not seem to try and find Verin. Why not? There is some mention of him being frantic because she left without him, which indicates that he WANTS to be with her, so why does he not follow her, using the Bond?

 

The only plausible reason I can think of is that she was fuzzing or masking the Bond. Why?

[Mr Ares]

What I've always found interesting is that Tomas did not seem to try and find Verin. Why not? There is some mention of him being frantic because she left without him, which indicates that he WANTS to be with her, so why does he not follow her, using the Bond?

 

The only plausible reason I can think of is that she was fuzzing or masking the Bond. Why?

I did mention earlier in the thread that she probably left him behind in order to drain his strength through the bond which would weaken him and slow him down if he was with her (and thus slow her down too, which is counterproductive). If he worked this out, or simply came to the conclusion that she must have had good reason for leaving him behind then he could have thought it best that he stay with the others rather than running off after her. Of course, even if he did decide that he could still be frantic through worrying about her, and knowing that there was little he could do to help her wouldn't necessarily calm him down. He wants to be with her, but he knows that trying to be wouldn't help her.

[Elgee]

TGH, chapter 12, Anaiya talking to Egwene:

 

"First Moiraine vanishes with Lan, then Liandrin right on Moiraine's heels, and then Verin, none of them with so much as a word for anyone.  Verin did not even take her Warder; Tomas is chewing nails with worry over her,"

 

I did mention earlier in the thread that she probably left him behind in order to drain his strength through the bond which would weaken him and slow him down if he was with her (and thus slow her down too, which is counterproductive).

 

Interesting theory, but a bit out in left field, I would say. If Aes Sedai used

their Warders that way, why aren't they all held in a safe place where they'd never slow their AS down while she was off doing something dangerous, and using him as some kind of intravenous drip?

 

If he worked this out, or simply came to the conclusion that she must have had good reason for leaving him behind then he could have thought it best that he stay with the others rather than running off after her. Of course, even if he did decide that he could still be frantic through worrying about her, and knowing that there was little he could do to help her wouldn't necessarily calm him down. He wants to be with her, but he knows that trying to be wouldn't help her.

 

A bit more plausible, but still directly against anything that a Warder stands for. She left without a word to him (we presume, based on the above quote). How would he know that she didn't want him with her? She left in such a hurry that she couldn't tell him. For all he knows, she expects him to do what any Warder would - follow his AS.

 

Look at Lan's reaction to when Moiraine forbade him to accompany her when she went to scout out Sammuel in Illian? He tried everything in the book to get round her command.

[Mr Ares]

TGH, chapter 12, Anaiya talking to Egwene:

 

"First Moiraine vanishes with Lan, then Liandrin right on Moiraine's heels, and then Verin, none of them with so much as a word for anyone.  Verin did not even take her Warder; Tomas is chewing nails with worry over her,"

 

I did mention earlier in the thread that she probably left him behind in order to drain his strength through the bond which would weaken him and slow him down if he was with her (and thus slow her down too, which is counterproductive).

 

Interesting theory, but a bit out in left field, I would say. If Aes Sedai used

their Warders that way, why aren't they all held in a safe place where they'd never slow their AS down while she was off doing something dangerous, and using him as some kind of intravenous drip?

That they are capable of taking strength from their warders in such a way is a fact. The reason they don't do as you suggest is that warders are intended, first and foremost, as bodyguards. A bodyguard held in a safe place wouldn't be much use. Mostly this ability would be saved for emergencies, I would imagine. The reason Verin would have done it is so she can keep going on her horse - she can refresh it, like Moiraine did to the horses after the TR, but this wouldn't do anything for her exhaustion. So she takes his strength in order to keep herself going.

 

If he worked this out, or simply came to the conclusion that she must have had good reason for leaving him behind then he could have thought it best that he stay with the others rather than running off after her. Of course, even if he did decide that he could still be frantic through worrying about her, and knowing that there was little he could do to help her wouldn't necessarily calm him down. He wants to be with her, but he knows that trying to be wouldn't help her.

A bit more plausible, but still directly against anything that a Warder stands for. She left without a word to him (we presume, based on the above quote). How would he know that she didn't want him with her? She left in such a hurry that she couldn't tell him. For all he knows, she expects him to do what any Warder would - follow his AS.

 

Look at Lan's reaction to when Moiraine forbade him to accompany her when she went to scout out Sammuel in Illian? He tried everything in the book to get round her command.

If speed is of the essence, then Tomas being weaker would slow him down and so would slow her down. If he is having to use his own strength in order to get somewhere, then there is less strength available for Verin to use, which delays her unnecessarily. Also, the assumption that Verin didn't tell Tomas where she was going and not to follow based on that quote is a little bit of a stretch. It's just as plausible that she told him she was going, told him not to follow, and he is worried about her because he is stuck and unable to do his job and protect her. Even if she didn't mention it to him, his weakened state could give him the indication of what she is doing, and he decides from that not to do anything.

[leo]

A couple of questions:

 

1.  Why did Verin try to catch up in the first place?  When asked she says that Moiraine sent her.  We have a direct quote from Moiraine that says otherwise.

2.  Why is no one willing to consider the possibility of: A. Verin being a Darkfriend. and B. Darkfriend AS that aren't connected with the BA.

 

The point that really sticks out to me in this thread is that those of you that refuse to consider Darkfriend Verin demand some sort of proof that she is.  Some of you have also claimed evidence that she most definitely is on the side of the Light.  If you could give some quotes of that it would be great.  Expecting those of us that question Verin's motives to give direct evidence that Verin is a Darkfriend or accept that she is on the side of the light is slightly ridiculous.

 

All in all, I think we'll probabaly just all have to wait until MoL comes out so we can RAFO.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

2.  Why is no one willing to consider the possibility of: A. Verin being a Darkfriend. and B. Darkfriend AS that aren't connected with the BA.

But it has been considered...

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

I think the reason why most people aren't going into it in detail is because the Verin argument has been going on forever.... The Thomas issue is, however, reasonably new and could possibly shed some further light on Verin.

Expecting those of us that question Verin's motives to give direct evidence that Verin is a Darkfriend or accept that she is on the side of the light is slightly ridiculous.

I agree, you can't be expected to agree. However, that also works in reverse. Why should those who believe Verin isn't a DF not require direct proof?

[leo]

Thanks for the link.  Gives me something to work with.

Expecting those of us that question Verin's motives to give direct evidence that Verin is a Darkfriend or accept that she is on the side of the light is slightly ridiculous.

I agree, you can't be expected to agree. However, that also works in reverse. Why should those who believe Verin isn't a DF not require direct proof?

 

I wouldn't expect them to at all.

 

As to the points in the link you attached:

Begin Quote.

VERINISM: In TGH, Verin tells the boys that Moiraine sent her to look after them: [TGH: 14, Wolfbrother, 195] "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me." Moiraine later says that she did NOT send Verin: [TGH: 49, What was Meant To Be, 572] "I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own." It is pretty obvious that Moiraine is not BA, so that implies that Verin lied, and hence must be BA.

EXPLANATION: Verin could have been tricked by somebody masquerading as Moiraine. Or, perhaps she managed to find an interpretation of her words that could be taken as the truth. (Moiraine wanted somebody to watch over you guys, but she couldn't be here...) Now, MAYBE Verin is using some sneaky thought process to get around the Oath: '"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile (recalling how satisfying the beer and pizza Moiraine had sent her for had been, and also how satisfying it had been to come up with a literally true statement which would preclude any questions from Rand, et. al.)' [Edward Measure]

End Quote.

All this may be valid but if Moiraine didn't send her why did she come and leave Tomas?  The whole idea of the human "metal burn" (for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about and haven't felt the need to check out anything else that BS has written have a look-see at Mistborn) and so leaving Tomas behind would make sense if she sprinted the whole way but a little less seeing as she rode.  Also, the warder bond has never been illustrated to be something that the AS could regulate (ie take 75% of Warder strength as opposed to 35%).

 

Next:

Begin Quote.

VERINISM: Verin does not give Corianin's notes to Egwene along with the dream ring [TDR: 21, A World of Dreams, 187]. Maybe she wanted Egwene to get killed, or caught by some Forsaken?

EXPLANATION: Four reasons that Verin wouldn't want to show the manuscript to Egwene: 1) Verin is afraid that Egwene would not continue if she knew how dangerous it is. 2) Verin is afraid that Egwene would not continue if she knew who or what must be sacrificed. 3) The very nature of prophecy requires that it be vague or kept secret. 4) Maybe Verin was afraid that Egwene was a Darkfriend. Also, note that she considered giving the notes to Egwene, but decided not to. If she was withholding the notes for a nefarious purpose, she wouldn't have even considered it.

End Quote.

Who cares about Corianin's notes.  Why in the world did she take Egwene aside and give her the ring at all?  Just because she might be a dreamer doesn't mean you should give her something to rush her off into something else that could get her killed.

 

Third:

Begin Quote.

VERINISM: Her suspicious behavior in the Two Rivers: ...c) She also knows Luc is the missing Lord Luc, Tigraine's brother who disappeared in the Blight. She knows he is mentioned in the Dark Prophecy, yet she does not warn anyone about him, or tell them who he is?

EXPLANATION: ...As for c)...

I think this one speaks for itself.

 

Fourth:

Begin Quote.

VERINISM: She was observed in deep conversation with Barthanes, a known Darkfriend, at the party in [TGH: 33, A Message From the Dark, 397]. When Hurin approached them, Verin waved him away. Perhaps they were discussing "business matters?"

EXPLANATION: No, they were just talking about the weather/politics/etc and Verin didn't want some Shienaran servant butting into her conversation; it wouldn't look right and might make Barthanes suspicious.

End Quote.

I'll have to double-check or maybe someone else will be able to do it for me, but wasn't there some sort of important reason that Hurin was coming to talk to her?  It wasn't like he just wanted to join the conversation.  How would it not look right seeing as he showed up in the same party with her?  What if his Shienaran master had sent him with a message to the AS that came with them?

 

Fifth:

Begin Quote.

In [TFOH: 53, Fading Words, 638] Moiraine mentions to Rand in her last letter not to trust Alviarin, who is definitely a Darkfriend, and Verin. Additionally, Siuan mentions that Verin never told her about giving Egwene a ter'angreal.

EXPLANATION: The former is just an exercise in contrasts. Moiraine is saying: "Don't trust ANYBODY. You are rightly suspicious of Alviarin, but you should be equally suspicious of those you think you can trust, like Verin." As for the latter, why should she tell SS?

End Quote.

If it were an exercise in contrasts it would seem to make more sense to open such an exercise with, "Don't trust anyone.  You're right not to trust Alviarin, but look even at Verin through that same lens." or some such.  Instead she only says, "Trust Verin as little as you trust Alviarin."(paraphrase) it just seems a little to specific to be explained away that easily.  As to why she should let Siuan know, at that point Verin had become a slightly obligatory member of the Siuan/Moiraine club.  I think that might have been good enough reason to justify informing her of additional danger that was being imposed on the young "BA-hound."

 

All in all, too many of these things are too vague and ambiguous.  The biggest question however is what is her motivation?  Why did Verin push Demira into confronting Rand?  Too much of what she has done smacks of "chaos" so what would be the motivating factor that would cause an AS trying to overcome the Shadow to intentionally screw around with so much?

 

I'll end with this.  As I said before, I wouldn't expect people to accept that she is black without clear evidence, but why is she "innocent until proven guilty" as opposed to "vague, ambiguous, and seeker of chaos?"

[benr]

Well, I'll go a few steps further than Leo (who is obviously very intelligent, as he (or she) agrees with me).  And thanks for the reference, Thin, it is very helpful. 

 

The first reference to Verin's comment to Ingtar:  this is incredibly weak logic on the explanation side.  Basically, all of the explanations just start with the assumptions that since Verin can't be Black, then the events can't mean what they seem.  The statement is as clear and unambiguous a lie as we have seen.  RJ says this is NOT a mis-step.  Moiraine is NOT a DF.  Verin lied, plain and simple.

 

Corianin's notes:  Again, the explanation assumes Verin's support of the Light.  I won't go into them, but there are at least as many reasons - and good ones - to explain Verin's actions from the Shadow.  OK, I'll go into one:  she saw an advantage for the Light if Egwene got some part of the notes.

 

Alviarin:  Rand didn't trust ANY AS; he didn't need warnings.  He didn't even trust Moiraine until the very end.  Moiraine, I believe, has very strong reasons to suspect Verin (see above).  If she had run into her after the end of tGH, we might have seen some fireworks (even without Aludra).  As it stands, we get to wait until they meet in AMoL.

 

At the end, we get a (again) assumptive reason why Verin is not BA.  Actually, this is probably correct, although not for the reasons presented.  All of the reasons simply assume she is on the side of the Light; if she is of the Shadow, they make perfect sense, too.  No, it seems to me that Leo has it right:  Verin is simply Black; not BA.  She has her own agenda:  to get Rand to TG, so the DO can triumph.  She believes that there can be no triumph of the Dark if the DR is not present.

 

Graendal as a captive Forsaken:  Well, if Verin is not of the BA, simply Black with her own agenda, then of course she wouldn't want Graendal for the Light.  She thinks it would be useful for HER to have a captive Forsaken - or Chosen.  I don't think she holds the Forsaken in as high esteem as the rest of the Shadow; she sees them for what they are.  This seems almost a Brown's curiosity:  what would I do with a Forsaken?  She's smart enough (oh yes she is!) to realize the fallacy of this course of action, and dimisses it.

 

As for Elza's POV; our assumption that the DO WANTS the DL at TG (too many initials in that sentence), then the "suggestion" from Verin makes much more sense than her wanting Rand to survive.  It isn't Rand's survival, but the presence of the DR at TG that she is driving for.

 

Finally, this is fantastic writing by RJ.  To split this so closely down the middle so that absolutely intelligent arguments can be made for both sides is fantastic.  Beats "who killed Asmo" all to heck.

We'll all RAFO. 

[bjclinton]

 

 

I don't think that the use of Compulsion necessarily makes her a Darkfriend, either. While Tower law prohibits it, it also prohibits the use of balefire and Unweaving, and that didn't stop Moiraine from using both...

 

I can't remember Moiraine unraveling any weaves.....not saying it didn't happen, but can you refresh my memory? The first time I remember seeing it was when Avi was unraveling the waygate upon seeing Moridin watch them leave.

[Luckers]

I can't remember Moiraine unraveling any weaves.....not saying it didn't happen, but can you refresh my memory? The first time I remember seeing it was when Avi was unraveling the waygate upon seeing Moridin watch them leave.

 

He was probably speaking of this...

 

"What are we waiting for?" Mat demanded, the low band of his scarf across his forehead. He had his bow across the pommel of his saddle with an arrow nocked, and his quiver pulled around on his belt for an easy reach.

 

Moiraine opened her eyes and started down the hill. "For me to remove the last vestige of what I did

here last night. The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid now. We are too close, and the Shadow is too strong here. Lan?"

 

[EotW: 49--The Dark One Stirs]

 

Personally, however, I do not believe this speaks of unweaving. Unweaving is done before releasing the weave, and Moiraine had already released the web of Folded Light. Furthermore she speaks of removing the residue--which requires the residue to have formed, and Unweaving stops it from ever forming, that is the purpose of it.

 

My guess is one of Moiraine's secret weaves was a way of destroying residue--it would need to be a very weak weave itself, or it would leave its own residue--something that would disipate in a matter of minutes.

 

 

As for Verin, I do not concider it possible for her to have been a darkfriend, Black Ajah or not--her actions against Graendal, and thoughts, show this. And her sudden reversal on her position with Cadsuane. All of her actions speak more to a woman attempting to ensure that the Aes Sedai don't mess things up with their need to dominate every action or event.

 

Concider those things you raised (the verinisms from the WoTFAQ) and the effect that they have.

 

1. The Lie. Verin had no need to say it whatsoever--the Shienar practically worship Aes Sedai, she could have told them the a pink bunny rabit named Lulu had sent her and they would have bowed and whispered honours to the Sister. About the only thing it directly achieves is that it disrupts everything Moiraine was trying to achieve by letting Rand go off 'by himself', and thus drives a wedge between Rand and the one Aes Sedai he might be willing to obey.

 

And she does the opposite to. Pretty much every second word out of her mouth to Moiraine and Siuan seem to play on the prejudices and fears Aes Sedai have about men who can channel. Seriously, go re-read the chapters in tGH and late tDR--i never realised how much before because those comments come out of pretty much every Aes Sedai's mouth at some stage in the series, but we know Verin doesn't think those things, which makes those comments calculated--and calculated at keeping Moiraine and Siuan wary of Rand.

 

2. Corianin's Notes. This one is flimsy, but I think they contain comments on the nature of the corrosion of the Aes Sedai, and the danger that will be once Rand appears--the posturing and childishness, the lies. All those things that so irritate people about Aes Sedai, the 'there is knowledge that would burn any mind but an Aes Sedai's', the 'Thrones have fallen interfering in Aes Sedai buisness'. Their constant need to control... Flimsy to suggest that, without evidence, yet this is exactly something a dreamer might percieve, much as Amys percieved the corruption in Tanchico.

 

Verin conciders destroying them, and then she conciders giving them to Egwene. The reason she conciders destroying them is obvious. Questioning the Tower, directly acting against its best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel is against both Law and custom, it would see her stilled. But why does she concider giving them to Egwene? I suspect that like Moiraine, Verin realises Egwene will become a driving force in the Tower--and that given Egwene's connections with Rand, she would have strong reason to redirect the Tower toward a more successful, less disaterous interaction.

 

3. Warning Perrin. This may or may not be a Verrinism, but Verin warns Perrin about Alanna--likely because she knew the woman was concidering bonding him. It could just be an act of decency, but it does continue with the same segragation of herself from Tower loyalties.

 

4. She incites the Salidar Embassy into that disasterous confrontation with Rand--Merana herself notes it. This seems strange--she knew it would drive them apart, yet later she compels Aes Sedai to help him. This was the incident that led me to this thought. She is acting to bring the Aes Sedai into helping Rand, but she is also acting to keep them from gaining control of Rand.

 

5. She compels the Aes Sedai into aiding him. Self evident what that means.

 

6. She conciders killing Cadsuane but stops specifically when Cadsuane reveals that she intends to act in his best interest, and that her actions and her bullying had nothing to do with getting control of him. Again, acting to stop Aes Sedai hubris and willfullness from taking over.

 

7. She herself warns him in her letter to beware all Sisters.

 

Ultimately every one of her peculiar actions lend themself to one thing--Verin acting to keep Aes Sedai from taking over, and yet still stay involved in the fight against the Shadow.

 

[Snowy Dawn]

Luckers: Disgustingly pedantic observations: it's ``perceived'' not ``percieved'' ('i' before 'e' except after 'c'---didn't your English teacher tell you that?) You also misspelled `disastrous' :-(

 

Otherwise, what you say in defense of Verin makes sense to me, but what has been said in this thread still leaves me somewhat skeptical of Verin's allegiance to the light; and it does seem to me that benr is just right about the finely balanced appearances of both dark and light vis-a-vis Verin. And it would nevertheless be interesting to have Cadsuane and Verin turn out to be a light/dark balance: both from Far Madding and both influences on Rand. Min (and the late Herid Fel) would probably have something to say about this....

 

FWIW, it does seem to me that Verin is playing her own game, but just what that game might be yet remains a mystery to me (at least).

[Luckers]

I'm dyslexic Snowy Dawn. I sometimes spell the same word three different ways in the course of a sentence. It's irritating I know, and I do self-edit before posting, but it'll never catch 'em all. Try to bear with me.

 

 

[benr]

Yeah, my wife is and English teacher.  I'm glad that she doesn't read the stuff I post; she already thinks I'm crazy for spending all the time I do on this.

[Cockta]

I need glasses  :-[

[Blue]

moiraine uses unweaving in the 1st book when they are in the blight. She does so to remove all traces of the weave after they spend the night by the lakes rather then let it dissipate.She might have used it elsewherebut that was what came to mind.

 

Im expecting something more out of tomas too. he has to be verins warder for a reason. it would be a let down if he was "just another warder"

[Snowy Dawn]

``It's irritating I know, and I do self-edit before posting, but it'll never catch 'em all. Try to bear with me.''

 

My apologies for my pedantry. You might find it useful to use Firefox (or Iceweasel) for your browser: recent versions do incremental spell checking. A misspelled word will get a red underline after you type the first space to end the word. You can ignore this advice, of course. :-)

 

One more thing about Verin and the attack on Demira: the last thing Demira hears before she loses is ``Tell the other witches...'' Unless Verin is quite sure that Demira knows nothing about the Aiel, would she have risked sending someone who would say that? She knows well enough, from her encounter in <i>The Great Hunt</i> while on the way to Cairhien with Ingtar's party that Aiel think of Aes Sedai as analogous to Wise Ones.

 

FWIW, It occurs to me that the ``squat and villainous fellow'' who says that as Demira loses consciousness might be one of Ordeith's renegade Whitecloaks.

 

As for who sent the attackers, the other plausible suspect is Mazrim Taim, or one of his agents, or perhaps some Friend of the Dark acting under instructions from one of the Forsaken. Mesanna would be one candidate for the giver of the said instructions or so it seems to me. 

 

[CUBAREY]

Unless Verin is quite sure that Demira knows nothing about the Aiel, would she have risked sending someone who would say that?

 

Well since Verin and Mirraine were the first A.S. to actually talk to Ail about Wise Women it's pretty clear that Demira would not know enough about the Aiel to suspect that line.  Moreover, anyone having a general knowledge about Aiel would first suspect anyone who could be described as squat dressed up like an Aiel. It seems to me that while Verin (if she was a DF) might have risked sending an oaf to gut Demira she would at least have sent a group of tall Oafs.

 

 

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

....and so leaving Tomas behind would make sense if she sprinted the whole way but a little less seeing as she rode.  Also, the warder bond has never been illustrated to be something that the AS could regulate (ie take 75% of Warder strength as opposed to 35%).

Yes, but you're assuming that Verin is either, a., using Tomas as a source of energy or, b., left him behind because he'll slow her down.

 

There are two other possibilities.

1. She leaves him behind because she believes he can't help her do what she needs to do. This could involve fighting One Power users. In such a situation, a warder can only get killed. We've seen Moiraine leave Lan behind when going off to confront things that he can't help with.

2. She leaves him because she doesn't want him to know what she is doing. After all, she is aiding and abetting the Dragon Reborn. The "Purple Ajah" idea might be an influence on this, perhaps he doesn't know all that she does.

Who cares about Corianin's notes.  Why in the world did she take Egwene aside and give her the ring at all?  Just because she might be a dreamer doesn't mean you should give her something to rush her off into something else that could get her killed.

Uhhhh ... given the importance of T'AR in the series, I'd say that dreaming is vital. Killing one of the Wondergirls by hiding information from her would be a coup for the Shadow. One of the strongest women in the OP, a friend of the Dragon? Either killed or turned, it'd be a coup. If she had been a Black she'd have withheld the notes without a second thought, but she did consider giving them to her. Giving Eg. access to T'AR isn't something who is opposed to the Tower/Dragon would do IMHO.

I'll have to double-check or maybe someone else will be able to do it for me, but wasn't there some sort of important reason that Hurin was coming to talk to her?  It wasn't like he just wanted to join the conversation.  How would it not look right seeing as he showed up in the same party with her?  What if his Shienaran master had sent him with a message to the AS that came with them?

Again, there are other reasons, that article merely gives one. What if Verin is trying to pump Barth. for information? What if she is trying to figure out how the lay of the land is?

 

I'd be amazed if a member of the Black Ajah and a prominent DF would have a cosy chat in the middle of party. It's a bit of a stretch.

If it were an exercise in contrasts it would seem to make more sense to open such an exercise with, "Don't trust anyone.  You're right not to trust Alviarin, but look even at Verin through that same lens." or some such.  Instead she only says, "Trust Verin as little as you trust Alviarin."(paraphrase) it just seems a little to specific to be explained away that easily.

That might be how you read it, others might not. I see it as a way of saying, "Here's someone you really don't trust (Alv.), well, have you considered her? (Verin) She's a little shady too." It all depends on how you read the note.

As to why she should let Siuan know, at that point Verin had become a slightly obligatory member of the Siuan/Moiraine club.  I think that might have been good enough reason to justify informing her of additional danger that was being imposed on the young "BA-hound."

But she already knows that Accepted are going after the BA. She does, after all, give the notes and ring to Eg.

I'll end with this.  As I said before, I wouldn't expect people to accept that she is black without clear evidence, but why is she "innocent until proven guilty" as opposed to "vague, ambiguous, and seeker of chaos?"

I think the majority of readers do see Verin as "vague, ambiguous, and seeker of chaos." I certainly do. However, that doesn't make her a darkfriend.

 

1. The Lie. Verin had no need to say it whatsoever--the Shienar practically worship Aes Sedai, she could have told them the a pink bunny rabit named Lulu had sent her and they would have bowed and whispered honours to the Sister.

The "lie" issue is still up for debate anyway. For me, the clincher is that we later see her doing the old mental gymnastics when considering passing information on to Rand (someone'll have the quote). Something along the lines of, "Well I promised I wouldn't speak to him, but if I wrote to him ...." That's a Oath in action, DF Aes Sedai don't abide by them anymore.

4. She incites the Salidar Embassy into that disasterous confrontation with Rand--Merana herself notes it. This seems strange--she knew it would drive them apart, yet later she compels Aes Sedai to help him. This was the incident that led me to this thought. She is acting to bring the Aes Sedai into helping Rand, but she is also acting to keep them from gaining control of Rand.

And that last bit would fit in with her take on Aes Sedai meddling. She wants to give Rand control of the situation.

[Mr Ares]

moiraine uses unweaving in the 1st book when they are in the blight. She does so to remove all traces of the weave after they spend the night by the lakes rather then let it dissipate.She might have used it elsewherebut that was what came to mind.

 

Im expecting something more out of tomas too. he has to be verins warder for a reason. it would be a let down if he was "just another warder"

Does she indeed? Debatable. Given that she had already released her weave by the time she did the "unweaving" but unweaving is actually done before a weave is released, it is at least as possible, if not more so, that she used a different weave to remove her residues. And why shouldn't Tomas be just another Warder.

 

The "lie" issue is still up for debate anyway. For me, the clincher is that we later see her doing the old mental gymnastics when considering passing information on to Rand (someone'll have the quote). Something along the lines of, "Well I promised I wouldn't speak to him, but if I wrote to him ...." That's a Oath in action, DF Aes Sedai don't abide by them anymore.

In the Prologue to Path of Daggers, when using her version of Compulsion on the Sisters, we see her going through the necessary mental gymnastics to make sure what she says is the truth - just not the truth you think you hear. So, she is apparently still bound by the first Oath, but is still entirely capable of lying. Or she can lie, except when she can't.

 

All this may be valid but if Moiraine didn't send her why did she come and leave Tomas? The whole idea of the human "metal burn" and so leaving Tomas behind would make sense if she sprinted the whole way but a little less seeing as she rode. Also, the warder bond has never been illustrated to be something that the AS could regulate (ie take 75% of Warder strength as opposed to 35%).

We have no reason to suspect that Aes Sedai can't control the amount of strength they draw from a Warder. Also, she would need to take a hell of a lot more energy from the man if she was sprinting. As it is, doing it as she rode would allow her to keep going longer, and keep the horse going longer (refreshing it with the Power - but that would do nothing for her own tiredness, hence taking Tomas's strength) would allow her to cath up much sooner (horses can go faster than people), would allow her to have a horse with her (so she wouldn't have to walk once she had caught up), would greatly reduce the risk of possiblity drawing enough strength to kill Tomas. Also, bear in mind that riding would still bbe using up Verin's strength. It makes sense that she would use Tomas's strength to keep herself going, without the need for sleep or rest, rather than wasting time - which may be of the essence.

 

All in all, too many of these things are too vague and ambiguous.  The biggest question however is what is her motivation?  Why did Verin push Demira into confronting Rand?  Too much of what she has done smacks of "chaos" so what would be the motivating factor that would cause an AS trying to overcome the Shadow to intentionally screw around with so much?

To put Rand in control, rather than have him be controlled.

 

The first reference to Verin's comment to Ingtar: this is incredibly weak logic on the explanation side. Basically, all of the explanations just start with the assumptions that since Verin can't be Black, then the events can't mean what they seem. The statement is as clear and unambiguous a lie as we have seen. RJ says this is NOT a mis-step. Moiraine is NOT a DF. Verin lied, plain and simple.

We see her elsewhere (see earlier in this post) justifying her comments to herself, making sure that every word she says is true, while still being very misleading. If she can lie, why would she do this? As we see elsewhere that she can't lie, why should we take this instance as a lie? It is far from an unambiguous lie. And "not a misstep" and "a lie" are not one and the same. If she couldn' lie, then it must have been the truth, and a misleading truth. Verin is still bound by the first Oath, therefore she cannot lie. Therefore this cannot be a lie. Also therefore, she cannot be BA.

[Luckers]

moiraine uses unweaving in the 1st book when they are in the blight. She does so to remove all traces of the weave after they spend the night by the lakes rather then let it dissipate.She might have used it elsewherebut that was what came to mind.

 

Perhaps you did not see my post, so i will repost it for you.

 

Quote

"What are we waiting for?" Mat demanded, the low band of his scarf across his forehead. He had his bow across the pommel of his saddle with an arrow nocked, and his quiver pulled around on his belt for an easy reach.

 

Moiraine opened her eyes and started down the hill. "For me to remove the last vestige of what I did

here last night. The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid now. We are too close, and the Shadow is too strong here. Lan?"

 

[EotW: 49--The Dark One Stirs]

 

Personally, however, I do not believe this speaks of unweaving. Unweaving is done before releasing the weave, and Moiraine had already released the web of Folded Light. Furthermore she speaks of removing the residue--which requires the residue to have formed, and Unweaving stops it from ever forming, that is the purpose of it.

 

My guess is one of Moiraine's secret weaves was a way of destroying residue--it would need to be a very weak weave itself, or it would leave its own residue--something that would disipate in a matter of minutes.

 

One more thing about Verin and the attack on Demira: the last thing Demira hears before she loses is ``Tell the other witches...'' Unless Verin is quite sure that Demira knows nothing about the Aiel, would she have risked sending someone who would say that? She knows well enough, from her encounter in The Great Hunt while on the way to Cairhien with Ingtar's party that Aiel think of Aes Sedai as analogous to Wise Ones.

 

FWIW, It occurs to me that the ``squat and villainous fellow'' who says that as Demira loses consciousness might be one of Ordeith's renegade Whitecloaks.

 

As for who sent the attackers, the other plausible suspect is Mazrim Taim, or one of his agents, or perhaps some Friend of the Dark acting under instructions from one of the Forsaken. Mesanna would be one candidate for the giver of the said instructions or so it seems to me. 

 

That attack was almost certainly Mazrim Taim's doing. The attackers have to be nearby and organised enough to react quickly and have knowledge of human anatomy, and have the balls to openly confront an Aes Sedai before stabbing her. Beyond that Demira is seemingly compelled into entering that ally--a man leers at her resulting in her suddenly and randomly changing her course into the exact alley where her ambush was waiting--this sounds exactly the basic forms of compulsion as described by novices (like Theodrin's method of making boys want to kiss her or not), and this is made even more certain by the fact that another person warned the warders he had seen Demira being attacked at the exact time she was attacked--which means they were extremely confident that Demira would suddenly divert into a random alleyway she had no reason to enter.

 

Beyond that, when she is stabbed she reaches for saidar and cannot get there--we know that pain can stop a person reaching the source, yet we've seen channelers manage it with arrows through their chests, surely matching what Demira describes. So she was probably shielded as well. Plus it fits Taim's MO exactly.

 

There's a much more elaborate thread around somewhere on Demira's attack--but yes, almost certainly Mazrim Taim.

 

Quote from: leo on June 15, 2008, 05:00:11 PM

....and so leaving Tomas behind would make sense if she sprinted the whole way but a little less seeing as she rode.  Also, the warder bond has never been illustrated to be something that the AS could regulate (ie take 75% of Warder strength as opposed to 35%).

 

Yes, but you're assuming that Verin is either, a., using Tomas as a source of energy or, b., left him behind because he'll slow her down.

 

There are two other possibilities.

1. She leaves him behind because she believes he can't help her do what she needs to do. This could involve fighting One Power users. In such a situation, a warder can only get killed. We've seen Moiraine leave Lan behind when going off to confront things that he can't help with.

2. She leaves him because she doesn't want him to know what she is doing. After all, she is aiding and abetting the Dragon Reborn. The "Purple Ajah" idea might be an influence on this, perhaps he doesn't know all that she does.

 

Firstly i didn't see leo's original quote, so just in reference i would point out that we know that the amount of energy an Aes Sedai can draw from her warder can indeed be regulated--from a light drain right up to taking everything and killing him.

 

As for your post Thin Innkeeper--there is also the possibility that she left him behind to keep an eye on Siuan. His outward display of frustration at being left behind makes sense anyway--no gaidan is happy about being seperated from his Aes Sedai.

 

Also, the Purple Ajah theory is old and tired--we've seen no evidence of it up through the eleventh book, and i think we would have by now. And even were it the case--Verin is inherently a loner, her plans are hers and she allows no one else to see them. No i think it very unlikely.

 

That might be how you read it, others might not. I see it as a way of saying, "Here's someone you really don't trust (Alv.), well, have you considered her? (Verin) She's a little shady too." It all depends on how you read the note.

 

Her point was simple--don't trust any Aes Sedai, not Alviarin whom she knows he is supicious of through to Verin whom he has the most reason to trust. It's contrasts, and his, not hers. She's saying from worst to best, trust none.

 

The "lie" issue is still up for debate anyway. For me, the clincher is that we later see her doing the old mental gymnastics when considering passing information on to Rand (someone'll have the quote). Something along the lines of, "Well I promised I wouldn't speak to him, but if I wrote to him ...." That's a Oath in action, DF Aes Sedai don't abide by them anymore.

 

Indeed--she also dances around the truth with Beldeine about her tiredness in the same chapter. But my point was not the oddity of her speaking something seemingly untrue--we know she is bound by the oaths--but about what purpose she had in saying specifically that Moiraine sent her. She had no need to say any such thing to justify her presence, and since it wasn't true (however managed) it was a risky thing to say. Ergo the question becomes to what point did she say it.

 

Only one answers raises itself--to make the lads feel Moiraine was still trying to control them. And why would she want to do that since we know that she actively seeks to see that Aes Sedai assist Rand in his fight...? Positioning. She was acting to stop Moiraine from coming out in charge of them. She was seperating them from the one Aes Sedai they had some degree of warmth for, or some feeling of debt. The one Aes Sedai that they had placed in charge of them, however half-heartedly. As you state in your very next comment. "She wants to give Rand control of the situation."