Was the Eye of the World a sa'angreal?

[Asmo]

Well? It certainly seemed to function roughly like a sa'angreal, and its creation also resembles what one could envision. A sa'angreal with some distinction, of course, such as Callandor would magnify the taint on saidin, maybe the Eye would reduce it? It seems incredible that Rand could defeat Ishamael if the Eye was not a sa'angreal, or at least an expotentially strong Well.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Rand didnt use the Eye of the World against Ishamael.

 

I always thought the Eye was some Saidin that had been Cleansed and liquified, so a male channeler could use it safely in a time of need. Im probably wrong though

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Eye was a place where a well of pure saidin and the Horn and banner were safeguarded by Someshta until the Dragon became reborn and needed them.

 

Something like a vacuole.  Only in phase with reality under special conditions.

[aevogt]

Dreadlord was exactly correct.  The Eye was a Well, similar to what Nynaeve and Cadsuane use in Far Madding, only for Saidin and on a far more massive scale.

 

That is how they were able to cleanse that amount, by removing the taint as it was fed into the well.  that kept it seperate from the rest of saidin and free from becoming tainted once again.

[cloglord]

The Eye was a place where a well of pure saidin and the Horn and banner were safeguarded by Someshta until the Dragon became reborn and needed them.

 

Something like a vacuole.  Only in phase with reality under special conditions.

 

Wow that was a really specific answer Bob.

 

 

As I've pointed out before, you are neither the author nor Aes Sedai, so quit acting like you are both.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Specific - and - correct.

[cloglord]

Based on what, your extensive personal experience with Vacuoles?  Your recollections of how you helped design a fictional well for Saidin?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Based on how it's described in the Eye of the World.

 

Keep up your schoolyard sniping for as long as you like.  It isn't moving any discussion forward.

 

Isn't that what the Admins are here for?  To move discussions forward?

[cloglord]

Based on how it's described in the Eye of the World.

 

I must have missed the part where the eye of the world was described as a place where time passed differently and was in danger of breaking away from reality and disappearing forever without warning.

 

Keep up your schoolyard sniping for as long as you like.  It isn't moving any discussion forward.

 

Isn't that what the Admins are here for?  To move discussions forward?

 

Luckily I'm not an admin, nor am I the mod for this board, so I guess I'm under no obligation to help you "move discussion forward" by letting you get away with the type of pronouncements from on high that you like to accuse others of. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Since we never experience the Eye when it is not in phase with the world, we have no way to know how time passes there.

 

What we do know, is that somewhat like a vacuole, it is not always in contact with the world.  Nor, when it is, does it always appear in the same place.  Thus, rather like a vacuole, it appears to break free and return again only when and where conditions are "right".  Whatever "right" means with respect to the Eye's behavior.

 

Reread my original, I didn't say it was a vacuole, I said "Something like a vacuole."  I maintain, in its behavior at the least, it behaves much the way a vacuole is supposed to.

[cloglord]

First lets be clear that what you were refering to is the area that disappears and reappears at need, and not the actual eye of the world, which is in essence  a giant well and nothing at all like a vacuole.  Second, we do know that vacuoles were a mystery to channelers in the AoL, and there were dangers inherent to their study based specifically on their unpredicatability.  The Greenman's garden is neither unpredicatable, it predicatably shows up at great need, nor does not pose the danger of breaking away from the pattern forever.  It as much like a vacoule as Jain Farstrider.  By your definition Noal is not quite in phase with reality, does not always appear in the same place, and appears to break free and return again only where conditions are"right."  Does that make Noal a vacuole too?

[Bob T Dwarf]

When Moiraine had them set out for the Eye of the World, she didn't know anything about the well of pure saidin, the Horn or the banner.

 

According to her own account she had visited the Eye and spoken with Someshta before.  It seems pretty apparent from that, that, to her the Eye was what someone referred to as Someshta's garden.  That the Eye also contained the well, the Horn and the banner was a surprise to her just like it was to everyone else, including us.

 

It was also the entire area including that garden that disappeared when the Eye was not present in the world.

 

All she knew was that Rand visiting the Eye was crucial to his success as the Dragon Reborn, not what they would find there.

[Jonn]

Interesting question, this.

 

What is a sa'angreal then?

 

It's an object that allows a channeler to handle a far greater amount of the Power than normal, exponentially so.

 

From what I know of a Well, I'm not sure it allows you to channel more of the Power than you normally would be able to at one time does it?

 

An angreal or a Sa'angreal has a kind of buffer that prevents one from burning out after passing a certain point in their own ability. (Excuse me if that's a simplified version.)

 

I do think in The Eye of the World, what Rand was doing at Tarwin's Gap and later against Ishamael...that was way beyond what he should normally have been able to do at that point.

 

How much of that is ta'varen? How much does it have to do with the boost the Eye gave him?

 

For some specific reason the Eye was more attuned to Rand than Aginor. I don't think it qualifies as a sa'angreal in the sense that we know what a sa'angreal is traditionally from the books; for example, the Choedan Kal and Callandor.

 

It seems to be a modified Well. I can agree with that. But how do we explain the massive amount of saidin Rand was able to handle at such an early stage in his development as a channeler?

 

I don't know what the answer is at the moment. What do you think?

[Tigara]

I don't think he used the well against Ishamael, just the Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap and Aginor.

 

I think that perhaps it is a modified well/sa'angreal, or perhaps there is two parts to it. 1 Part to hold the saidin, the other to amplify it. I have no proof of this, but it's a theory.

[Bob T Dwarf]

When Aginor confronts Rand, Rand notices silver conduits connected to both of them.  The one connected to Aginor was much thicker than the one connected to him.

 

So, it would seem fair to say that Aginor was hogging the majority of what saidin was flowing through those conduits.

 

The commonly held belief is that Aginor burned himself out.  Not possible with any sa'angreal unless it was designed to require buffering and supervision in its use by women, ala Callandor.

 

Rand did about eleventeen impossible things for someone of his supposed level in The Eye of the World.  I don't think we can lay any of them to some unheard-of-til-now amplification of saidin.

 

Certain unknown Talents, now... maybe.  There also don't seem to be many known Talents where Rand hasn't already demonstrated mastery.

[Jonn]

When Aginor confronts Rand, Rand notices silver conduits connected to both of them.  The one connected to Aginor was much thicker than the one connected to him.

 

So, it would seem fair to say that Aginor was hogging the majority of what saidin was flowing through those conduits.

 

The commonly held belief is that Aginor burned himself out.  Not possible with any sa'angreal unless it was designed to require buffering and supervision in its use by women, ala Callandor.

 

Rand did about eleventeen impossible things for someone of his supposed level in The Eye of the World.  I don't think we can lay any of them to some unheard-of-til-now amplification of saidin.

 

Certain unknown Talents, now... maybe.  There also don't seem to be many known Talents where Rand hasn't already demonstrated mastery.

 

I don't altogether agree with the thought that Rand was able to do things out of his level before touching the Eye.

 

I did make mention of the question; how much of it was ta'veren?

 

The first time we notice that he channels is when he eased some of Bela's weariness when they were fleeing the dragkhar.

He desperately needed something to keep Egwene from falling back. A little bit of power he managed to use to help that along. Not totally out of the realm of a first timer.

 

The other notable time he used the Power in that book was when he killed those darkfriends in that Inn to escape. He called a bolt of lightning. Again, not terribly out of the realm of a young, but powerful channeler. I can't remember, but I think it was raining already, so all he needed to do was direct the conditions to his favor. Also ta'veren helped too.

 

Other than that...The Eye kind of stands out. Aginor was connected to the thread, but Rand suddenly took hold of it as well. He thought that he needed to get away and so he got away. When he came back Aginor was a pile of ashes.

 

He could have burnt out, but then again, maybe something happened when the power surged into Rand...

 

What he did at Tarwin's Gap. That was way bigger than what he had mustered the entire book. He summoned lightning out of the air and killed all of the Dragkhar. He knocked half of the trolloc army on their backs and he had a confrontation with Ishamael. That's a big jump from calling a single lightning bold and washing fatigue from a horse.

 

Again, I don't know how or why he was able to amplify his meager ability. I do think he was using a lot of clean saidin.

 

We know that it was the last great work of the Aes Sedai before all of the men went mad. A circle of Men and women all died to make it what it was. I wonder if the Eye was set up to be attuned to the Dragon as Callandor was in the Stone. Maybe a temporary, delayed surge was triggered by Rand touching the Eye and he was able to channel at an amplified level.

 

Just a thought.

[RAND AL THOR]

My opinion:

The Eye is not a sa'angreal. So far, we have not come across any sa'angreal that can function without direct contact. The Eye is most likely a pool of pure untainted saidin. Whether its a vacuole or well is beyond me. ;)

 

But why was Aginor drawing on it? He has access to safe saidin anyway. I think the purpose of the store of pure saidin was to give the Dragon safe saidin to channel. Maybe Rand was able to hold of the madness for so long by channeling so much pure saidin when he first actively channeled?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.

 

Rand doesn't need to be touching the little fat man.  I don't believe either he or Nynaeve were in direct contact with the access keys, either.  It seems they need to be nearby, but not in contact.  All Rand seems to need to do is to think about drawing saidin through the artifact for it to work.

[Asmo]

The Eye is not a sa'angreal. So far, we have not come across any sa'angreal that can function without direct contact. The Eye is most likely a pool of pure untainted saidin. Whether its a vacuole or well is beyond me. ;)

 

Except Callandor. And the Choedan Kal (the access keys, for that matter). Which is three of the four sa'angreal shown. All you need is to have an exact notion of the relative position of the (sa')angreal in relation to your own position in order to channel through it. It was explained... sometime, I don't know.

 

As for wording and stuff, it doesn't matter. Almost every time Rand channels through a sa'angreal, the wording is different, which indicates that as he grows more and more experienced in using them and the One Power in general, the experience changes. So early in the books, RJ probably didn't have specifics in mind regarding the sa'angreal, so that probably explains some inaccuracies.

 

My opinion is that the Eye was perhaps the other sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor, aside from the male CK.

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK.  First Jonn -

 

I hadn't thought about it like that.  You are correct we don't see that much before he accesses the well at the Eye.  But, we're told that men progress erratically, and then by leaps and bounds, until their maximum potential is finally reached.

 

So, was it some effect of the pure saidin or was it just the first leap in strength?  Dunno.  No way to tell, really.

 

Asmo -

 

My guess is that the Ring of Tamyrlin was the other that was more powerful than Callandor.  My only reason for that is that it is a nearly legendary thing.  But, being legendary doesn't necessitate it being particularly powerful either.

 

So, since we have no definitive idea either way, I'd say you're as likely to be right as I am.

[BrainFireBob]

Three things.

 

1) The Ring of Tamyrlin was the badge of office of the First Among Servants, and was said to have been made by Tamyrlin, who discovered channelling.

 

Since Tamyrlin was the first, and sa'angreal would have to have been figured out the first time, one doubts it's more than an artifact of historic significance, if truly made by Tamyrlin.

 

2) The Eye was a super-duper Well. This is from Jordan's own mouth, in response to someone asking if the Eye was a well after the introduction of wells later in the series. It operates on the same principle as wells, but on a larger scale.

 

3) It is not the Eye itself that is out of phase, it is the Green Man's entire place, inside of which is the Eye, and which was warded somehow. The mythological connections to the Castle of Wonders and the isle of Avalon are readily apparent, as well as Shangri-la.