Would you accept Rand returning to life?

[Bob T Dwarf]

No.  Rand has to live to fulfill the symbology that Jordan has espoused throughout.

 

Death to symbolize the terrible choices mankind must sometimes make, and rebirth to symbolize renewal and the ongoing struggle to understand and find our ultimate place in the overall scheme of things.

[Nightstrike]

I both hope and believe that Rand will end up alive after the last battle. "To die and live again" (or whatever the exact phrasing) ought to mean that there is a way for him to really come out alive. If that wasn't the case, the Aelfinn should have told him there was no way for him to survive Tarmon Gaidon. Everybody will be reborn eventually, so there (in my opinion) should be no point for them to be telling him about that. Of course they are quite alien to humans, but there's still no reason for them to be stating the obvious.

[Guest Dreadlord]

If Rand being reborn is how he lives after that wont be good enough for me. And if after Tarmon Gaidon he wakes up on the day at the start of Eye of the World, like some cheesy fairy tale, I wont be satsfied either.

 

It has to be good. It just has to.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Maybe the "to live you must die" bit refers to him having to die so that he canbe born and live in another age? The prophecy does not confine the idea to the current time, people just interpret it that way.  If this is the case, or something similar, I swear I will cry...

[RAND AL THOR]

ditto nightstrike.

 

Rand: How can I wind the last battle and SURVIVE?

 

The Eels: To live you must die.

 

 

Come now, everyone dies and is reborn in another age. It makes no sense whatsoever for the eels to state the obvious. So many of RJ's prophecies have been fulfilled in such twisted ways that we have come to expect all other prophecies to be fulfilled in the same way. But what if this really straighforward? You will die at TG and then you will return to life.

 

His question was 'survive.' In my opinion, rebirth in another age would not match the word 'survive' at all. The only possibility in that direction would be if the eelfins interpreted his question to mean:

 

How can I ensure that my soul will survive?

 

Then it may be that their answer refers to rebirth but I seriously doubt that they interpreted his question in that way.

 

And dreadlord, your answer is just the kind of thing  I was looking for when  I started the thread.

And I think its going to be more than the 'cheesy fairy tale' ending. ;)

I just can;t wait to see how the eclipse is going to be involved in this.

[Lord Nik]

ive had a quick look over this thread and it could honeslty go both ways. Ive read the series three times and i still dont know how its going to end because is rand put it (ahem member rand) the prophecies twist so much they still come true but not as we expect it at all... in response to Rand dying and coming back alive i cant think this amazing sereis will have the same horrible cheesy fairytale ending which is found in the aweful book series, harry potter (gag)

another response to people saying its all sucky rand dying and coming back... in the wheel of time EVERYONE has done it!... according to everything we know about the wheel of time that is the whole dying and awainting to be rebirthed deal... and take a look at mat.. he was hanged! he was dead! he had a very similar prophecy to that of rand... and look how he is now.. the same old cheery cheeky mat that we know and love even though he died and was "recycled" his soul seems to be doing pretty good i say :D

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Someone mentioned somewhere(sorry I really forgot who and where) that RJ had once said that Mat did not actually die in Rhuidean. Rand found no pulse true, but if that statement is true, then he has yet to die and return to life (maybe in the moiraine rescue mission?)

 

Also, if he was actually dead in Rhuidean, how did Rand bring him back? Rand didn't even touch the power so how on earth did Mat return even if he HAD died? ???

[Jonn]

Sanderson, if you haven't read his stuff yet, has a nice touch with endings. His tend to have a...finality about them. Don't get me wrong, he leaves things unresolved in a tasteful manner, but you can accept the end for what it is.

 

That said, I do believe that on his blog he's been saying that the end will be satisfactory, so if Rand dies at the end, I'm sure it will be touching, sad, cathartic...If he lives, I'm sure it will pretty much be the same.

 

At the end of Lord of the rings, it's sad, even though everything comes out well enough. Frodo isn't allowed to have the peace he seeks. Though he survives his ordeal and fulfills his quest, something in him has died and will not come back and so he passed into the Grey Havens and went with the some of the last to Valinor. Essentially, he's passed away. The world he saved is where life is, and he cannot stay. Still, he left behind life for those who deserve it. The humble, the simple, the loyal Sam. It's beautiful, but sad.

 

I do have confidence that RJ set down his pen only after he made sure that the ending he sought to give us was as satisfying as possible. If Rand dies, I won't mind.

 

If he doesn't, I doubt I'll be disappointed. As the prophecy says, to live he must die...Whether he lives or not, do you really think he'll be the same?

 

Like Frodo, he sill have gone through so much, been through so much pain in his struggles and suffered...The person that he was in the Two Rivers has essentially passed away, never to return.

 

If he lives, the question will be centered on whether or not he'll be able to become whole again in some form or other. Even if he lives, the story will probably still have that tinge of sadness and loss.

 

So, yes, I'd accept Rand coming back from the dead, so to speak. It really depends on how it's written right?

 

I think Sanderson will do well.

 

[trakand_01]

I personally have a strong desire to see Rand die. Not because I dont like Rand - indeed he's my favourite character but I just need some finality to the story. I know there will be no followups, I know that it is all over after aMoL, but if Rand survives, I will be forever wondering 'what happened next'?

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's what Jordan wanted us all to think.

 

He wanted to leave us with a living, breathing, ongoing world.  One problem solved, but life ongoing, and people with our usual ignorance and hubris already starting to create new ones.

 

If the end of the series doesn't leave us all at least a little sad and wistful because we can never know, "What happens next?", then Jordan didn't do his job as an author.

[trakand_01]

That's fair enough, all I'm saying is that on a personal level, it would very slightly taint my 'memories' of the series, because I would be forever frustrated (and a little annoyed after all this time) that I had been left... hanging. Kind of like "I read 12 books, repeatedly, over 11 years, and you STILL dont tell me what happens!?".

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well... he did taunt us for six going on seven books now over Asmo, so, my best guess is that he probably meant to leave us wondering whether Rand is really alive or dead when we finally got to the last page.

 

There are many versions of the Tale of King Arthur.  Which do you find most satisfying, the ones where Arthur dies, or the ones where, still barely breathing, his boat disappears into the mist bound for the Lady of the Lake?

[Nightstrike]

Ahhh, but there's not the end of the journey that matters. It's the journey itself. Isn't that what people use to say (especially when it comes to stories told, like this one)?

 

Trakand01, I wonder if you haven't got the answer it Rand is still alive after the dust settles. It's a happy ending - and I'm a huge fan of those. Especially since there are too few of them in real life.

[trakand_01]

What i'm meaning is that I want to know that he's either dead, or he's alive. I dont want to put the book down (more likely throw it down) with BS/RJ giving us an exodus which describes a humble beggar sporting unusual tattoos, but with Elayne/Avi/Min feeling nothing through the bond.

 

I'm too attached to Rand to not know what happens to him. It would be like (and this is a very dramatic simile) my partner or a close friend disappearing, and never being found. I know he's gone, I know he's out of my life, but what happened?

 

At the end of the day it's all personal opinion and we each experience the books in a different way. I dont particularly care whether that's what RJ intended, that doesnt change the way I would feel!

;D

[RAND AL THOR]

I would love to have Rand alive and settled in a farm with a huge net of inverted saidin weaves that make the whole area invisible so that he can live with whichever one of the trio he chooses to the end of his days.

 

If I'm left wondering whether Rand is alive or not by the end of the last book, I'm going to kill myself to go wherever RJ is and wring the answer out of him!!!!

 

Leaving Rand alive doesn't necessary have to be like a cliff-hanger. In LOTR, Frodo is still alive and sails into the West but do we expect a story with him in Valinor? No (though that maybe due to the fact that Tolkien is no longer with us).

 

What I really do NOT want is Rand living as a ruler/king after TG. ;)

 

I see what you're saying trakand, and I totally agree. But I'm expecting a clear answer.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, I want a clear answer, too.

 

I'm just not all that hopeful that we'll actually get one.

 

Like you say, we each experience the books in our own unique way, so no matter how it ends, some readers are going to be left wanting.

[Majsju]

Someone mentioned somewhere(sorry I really forgot who and where) that RJ had once said that Mat did not actually die in Rhuidean. Rand found no pulse true, but if that statement is true, then he has yet to die and return to life (maybe in the moiraine rescue mission?)

 

Also, if he was actually dead in Rhuidean, how did Rand bring him back? Rand didn't even touch the power so how on earth did Mat return even if he HAD died? ???

 

Mat did not die in Rhuidean, if he had, he would no longer be in the story.

He did however die in Caemlyn, when rahvin reigned lightning all over the place. A death that was undone by Rand balefiring Rahvin, and thus fulfilling the prophecy.

[Daphilip]

Someone mentioned somewhere(sorry I really forgot who and where) that RJ had once said that Mat did not actually die in Rhuidean. Rand found no pulse true, but if that statement is true, then he has yet to die and return to life (maybe in the moiraine rescue mission?)

 

Also, if he was actually dead in Rhuidean, how did Rand bring him back? Rand didn't even touch the power so how on earth did Mat return even if he HAD died? ???

 

Mat did not die in Rhuidean, if he had, he would no longer be in the story.

He did however die in Caemlyn, when rahvin reigned lightning all over the place. A death that was undone by Rand balefiring Rahvin, and thus fulfilling the prophecy.

 

Maybe the same will happen to Rand. Rand gets killed by some forsaken during the climax of TG and Elayne or Avhienda balefire the hell out of Moridin, or whoever killed him, and voila: Rand lives!

[Paviel]

An odd thought just occurred to me as I was reading LoC, page 194. Keeping in mind that the following is from Elayne's point of view...

 

"Nynaeve did not think [that gentling/stilling could not be Healed], of course, but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead."

 

Maybe it's just exaggeration on Elayne's part, but I remember quite a bit of Christian imagery surrounding Rand, and this may add more.

 

Then again, Nynaeve doesn't fit anywhere into Nicola's foretelling, so maybe she doesn't fit anywhere into Rand's death and resurrection.

[Bob T Dwarf]

When it comes to Rand, resurrection may be the wrong word to use.  It implies a level of divinity is involved.

 

Jordan was pretty clear in portraying the Dragon as merely a man.  Powerful true, but still only human.

 

Death followed by a return to life through an entirely human agency fits far better with the whole set of themes he set up.

 

Randland is a place where people can accomplish seeming miracles if they're only smart enough to use the tools they already have to hand.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Maybe the same will happen to Rand. Rand gets killed by some forsaken during the climax of TG and Elayne or Avhienda balefire the hell out of Moridin, or whoever killed him, and voila: Rand lives!

UNQUOTE

 

Personally I doubt this will happen to Rand as its already happened to Mat. Also, we know Alivia has a part to pplay in the "to live you must die" thing.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I doubt Rand will be balefired...  do you know how much that would screw up the pattern?  Especially considering the fact that he's ta'veren?  The pattern would get so snarled up it might explode!'

 

Ok, maybe an exageration, but it would really mess things up.

[Lord Nik]

Someone mentioned somewhere(sorry I really forgot who and where) that RJ had once said that Mat did not actually die in Rhuidean. Rand found no pulse true, but if that statement is true, then he has yet to die and return to life (maybe in the moiraine rescue mission?)

 

Also, if he was actually dead in Rhuidean, how did Rand bring him back? Rand didn't even touch the power so how on earth did Mat return even if he HAD died? ???

 

Mat did not die in Rhuidean, if he had, he would no longer be in the story.

He did however die in Caemlyn, when rahvin reigned lightning all over the place. A death that was undone by Rand balefiring Rahvin, and thus fulfilling the prophecy.

 

Sorry i pointidley disagree. Rhavin was killed by Balefire.... everything he did (ie kill mat/ avi/ asmo ect) never happened. As far as history is concered... Mat didnt get touched by the power that day let alone killed by it. Im with the rand brining mat back in rhuidein theory... seems to make more sense... and i think rand did use the power on mat... he just didnt know what he was doing, or a subconciuos lews therin healing mat? Or maybe! mat was healed by the radiant glory being emittied by the light made flesh, The Lord Dragon :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

A lot of the confusion comes from LoC.

 

Mat spends time thinking about what the 'Finns told him.  HE thinks that he died in Rhuidean.

 

The 'Finns actual words were: "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

 

That only meshes with the events in Caemlyn.  Mat died.  Smoking corpse.  Rand balefires Rahvin back to before Rahvin cast the lightning that killed Mat, therefore rendering Mat not-dead.  Mat, Aviendha, and Asmo then relive the "part of what was" from when Rand saw them dead at his feet until Rand balefired Rahvin.

[Paviel]

and i think rand did use the power on mat...

 

Nope. He used CPR on Mat, not the Power.