Empress Tuon: What Will She Do?

[Celdiruen]

So, this just came to me and I wanted to share it with you guys  ;)

 

Since the whole Seanchan Imperial family is dead, including the Empress, Tuon now holds that position.

 

What do you think she'll do? I think she'll obviously want to meet Rand.. maybe attempt to manipulate him or talk about TG.

 

Wasn't there some sort of prophecy about the Dragon having to kneel/bow before the Crystal Throne/Empress? I'm in the middle of a re-read and my memory is a bit rusty  :P

 

*EDIT*

Just to clarify and move this away a bit from the other thread regarding Tuon, this isn't necessarily about the prophecy being fulfilled. More about things like will Tuon send Seanchan to aid in the last battle, how they'll cope with soldiers from other nations, etc.

 

The one thing that I'm interested about concerning the prophecy is what if Tuon openly asks Rand to submit to her(I know, not likely, but what if) and Rand refuses. That would put Mat between a madman and an angry wife, wouldn't it? Or if Rand uses the Seanchan in some tricksy way and Tuon gets mad.

[Valinthros]

It's a debatable topic.  There were... alterations to either the main land(Randland) prophecies, or the Seanchan prophecies.  The Seanchan beleive that he must kneel.  The Randland say that he must "Bind the Chrystal Throne".  Completely different versions.  Only one person knows the truth.  Well, maybe two, it's widely beleived that the prophecies were tampered with my Ishmael.

 

Hope that helps. ;)

[42Bonzo88]

    Quote "That would put Mat between a madman and an angry wife, wouldn't it?" Unquote.

 

    Personally, I would choose the madman 10 times out of 10! lol

[RAND AL THOR]

  Quote

    Quote "That would put Mat between a madman and an angry wife, wouldn't it?" Unquote.

 

    Personally, I would choose the madman 10 times out of 10! lol

 

Truetrue-especially since the wife is Tuon ;)

[drewk]

Tuon, being able to train damane and therefore a sul'dam, is going to jump into battle wielding the one power, rallying damane and seanchan to her.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Unless Tuon can overcome her background, training, prior life experience, and parochial prejudice, she, like nearly every other character in the series will do the maximally unhelpful and silly/stupid thing the situation provides.

[bRANDan]

  Quote

Unless Tuon can overcome her background, training, prior life experience, and parochial prejudice, she, like nearly every other character in the series will do the maximally unhelpful and silly/stupid thing the situation provides

 

Brandon Sanderson is a good friend of mine, and well, I'll issue a

spoiler alert here for AMOL.

Alright, Moiraine will be coming back from Finnworld in this book and will bring something back from Finnworld to help Rand defeat the DO. She and Mat eventually meet up with Tuon on the march to the Last Battle. Tuon and Moiraine despise each other and Moiraine realizes that Tuon will let the Sul'dam carry on in ignorance, not channelling, even though it would mean the difference between victory or failure. So Moiraine finally realizes the purpose of the thing she traded for in Finnland, she has to make Tuon forget her past and prejudices, so she hits Tuon with it. Tuon instantly forgets everything and when she comes to her senses TG is raging around her. She embraces the source and channels as is it was as natural as breathing, coming to her on instinct. The rest of the Sul'dam join in and the Light wins.

What did Moiraine bring back?

A shock lance. Nothing erases memory like a good ol' shock therapy session.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Paviel]

  Quote

It's a debatable topic.  There were... alterations to either the main land(Randland) prophecies, or the Seanchan prophecies.  The Seanchan beleive that he must kneel.  The Randland say that he must "Bind the Chrystal Throne".

 

I think the Randland prophecy said "Bind the Nine Moons", not "Bind the Crystal Throne".

 

Assuming that there is a difference between the Nine Moons and the Crystal Throne.

[Luckers]

That prophecy is definately false.

 

You see, it either means that Rand submits to Tuon, thereby figurtively kneeling to the Crystal Throne, or he physically kneels to the actual throne, without any submittal.

 

The first option is disproven by the actual prophecy that he will bind the nine moons to serve him, thus showing he will clearly come out on top. The second is disproven by the fact that RJ stated the books will never return to Seanchan.

 

Aside from which the way they are first suggested, with the reference to the fact that on Luthair's copy was accurate and that both those originally in Seanchan as well as those in the Westlands more than points to it being false.

[balefireruinssteaks]

it would not be completely outrageous to think that Rand actually kneels at the Crystal Throne.

 

The Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal that creates an atmosphere of intense awe for anyone around it.  He might kneel not so much because he WANTS to but more because of the effect of the ter'angreal.

[bRANDan]

I also think it would not be outrageous for him to kneel to the Crystal Throne. But I think Rand would be strong-willed enough to overcome the awe inspiring effects of the ter'angreal and merely kneel to deceive her at first then go on to Give her a piece of his mind and then stand back up.

 

There's no way Rand will actually submit to Tuon.

[cloglord]

Uhm, does anyone actually bother to read the other posts anymore, or does everyone just post to read themselves type?  Luckers is correct that RJ said that he books would never return to Seanchan.  If that is the case, (and it is,) Rand can not kneel to the throne, unless you think that the seanchan loaded it up on a boat and floated it over to Randland, or unless you think that Rand would perform such an act while, "off screen."

 

As to the question of whether rand would ever kneel to Tuon, I don't think it as cut and dry as, "I like Rand he's too kewl to kneel to a girl!"  Rand is a very complex character, and the evidence points to at least one more major personality shift in store for him before the end, that shift being represented by the foretold "begger," period.  Simply, what was in charater for the "old" Rand might well be well in character for a "Begger Rand." Further we already see Rand's ability to bend in certain circumstances.  He has alread acceeded to the bargain made with the Sea Folk, and has given up his plan to crush the seanchan into obedience, and instead has decided to bargain with them.  Maybe, considering the fact that Rand has no interest in holding power after TG, (should he survive,) he would be more than willing to agree to give up some measure of power post-TG in exhange for her cooperation during TG.

 

Personally, and on the original question posed, I think that Tuon will make an attempt at bargaining for knowledge of traveling so as to make an attempt at stabilizing Seanchan.  I know that many, including Luckers, disagree with me, but I do not think that Tuon has a good grasp on how enormous TG will be, and will prioritize the welfare of her homeland above the "supposed" threat of monsters she's never seen before.  I don't know how that motivation would play out in a Tuon/Mat dynamic, but since it sems likely that Mat will be tied up for a while, I think Tuon could go quite a ways down that road, before being convinced to stay Randland side by her husband.

[bRANDan]

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Uhm, does anyone actually bother to read the other posts anymore, or does everyone just post to read themselves type?  Luckers is correct that RJ said that he books would never return to Seanchan.

 

Yes cloglord, we do read the previous posts. Going strictly by what is written in the WoT series, no we will never return to Seandar. But there was plans to write other books in the WoT universe. Rand could easily bargain to kneel to the Crystal Throne after TG, in exchange for help from the Seanchan. Or as you said it could occur off screen, though I doubt that it would.

 

Also, it is not wrong to try to surmise what would occur in a given situation, even if we know that situation won't occur.

 

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I don't think it as cut and dry as, "I like Rand he's too kewl to kneel to a girl!" 

 

Nobody said it was that cut and dry, we all know he is complex. The kneeling could go either way IMO. But submitting? No, even if he does change enough to just be able to submit. His kids are going to be the heirs of Andor and his would-be-wife Elayne it's queen, for their sake and the sovereignty of Andor I don't think Rand would.

 

  Quote

and has given up his plan to crush the seanchan into obedience

 

And those large armies Rand has gathered on either side of the Seanchan invaders would be there for what then? I wouldn't say given up, merely postponed. Their defeat is inevitable facing Rand's forces, he's just given them a chance to agree to a wiser course.

 

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I think that Tuon will make an attempt at bargaining for knowledge of traveling so as to make an attempt at stabilizing Seanchan.

 

I like this idea. The way they talk about the Shadowspawn Tuon might think that the battle will be akin to crushing bugs underfoot. Then once the battle begins and they see it is far worse then they imagined they will be forced to continue and be unable to reneg on their deal.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Remember also that "kneeling to the Crystal Throne" might not mean literally kneeling before the literal throne.  Tuon is Empress.  She IS Seanchan...she IS the Crystal Throne, just as Elaida insists over and over that the Amyrlin Seat isn't just a place she sits...Elaida IS the White Tower (in her mind anyway).

 

So whatever bargain Rand makes with Tuon could constitute "kneeling to the Crystal Throne"...that "throne" being Tuon herself representing all of Seanchan.

[Luckers]

I addressed this. If we take Tuon to be a metaphorical embodiement of the Crystal Throne, then Rand kneeling means that he has submitted to her--its required in the language. That 'prophecy' could be fulfilled by him submitting to her, or by him physically kneeling to the physical throne. Since the first is precluded by the actual prophecies, and the second is precluded by RJ's comment that the books will never return to Seanchan, we know it is false.

 

Beyond that the way that aspect is raised shows it is false. Neither Seanchan nor Randland had the prophecy, only Luthair's version contained it. A single version appearing two thousand years after it was spoken. Logic dictates that such an effort to exclude the aspect of him kneeling to the Crystal Throne makes no sense, since the Throne wasn't known, and didn't matter to anyone anymore than the prophecy about him being branded. Including it about your own throne, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense.

 

Ultimately, that prophecy is false.

[Darth_Andrea]

I honestly think that the part of the prophecy the original version anyway has been fulfilled. Tuon is bound to Rand through Mat.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aaah, but which is the tail and which is the dog?

 

Tuon is linked to Rand through Mat, but that doesn't bind the nine moons to serve him.

 

Tuon is the Empress.  Mat is only ( so far ) her courtesy consort.  In her world that means when she says, "Toad," that means Mat jumps.  She is the dog and Mat is the tail.  By extension anyone and anything linked to Mat is hers to command, as well.