HOW IS RAND GOIN TO KILL THE DARK ONE AND HOW WILL ELAYNE HOLD THE KEY TO WINING

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Doing as it wished? I seem to remember it being focused on Mat and somehow killing him. That would be an instruction from one of the Forsaken right? Since they want both Mat and Perrin dead...

UNQUOTE

 

My memory may be wrong here, but Im sure it only started chasing Mat after the chance encounter he had with it, when he damaged it with the medalion. Before that, the Gholam had no contact with him. Unless, of course, there are 2 gholams on the loose or I am losing the plot

[benr]

It seems to me, cobbling together things from this thread and others, that the Do is trying to help Rand get to TG because that is the only way that he/she/it can escape the bore.  I like the previous idea (in another thread, don't remember who to credit - sorry) that the Do is actually the Creator bound in the bore by the Wheel at its creation, perhaps through miscalculation by the Creator.  The Do/Creator has now spent the Ages trying to break free from his/her/its own trap.  Rand will never KILL the Do; that is something that can be done with actual inhabitants of his world, not those outside it.

 

I also think that the reporting of Fel as getting too close means that there are agents for at least one of the Forsaken at the academy - it would be very surprising if there weren't.  It has been discussed before, but I also think it possible that the remains are not actually those of Fel.  That would explain the use of the Gholam, to leave unidentifiable remains.  What that says of Fel becomes open to speculation.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Those are both intersting theories that I have never heard before.  I think it would be kind of sad if Fel ended up being a darkfriend.  Min would be crushed, the poor girl already liked him and to find out he was actually helping kill the man she loves.  That would hurt.

 

As for the DO/Creator idea, that would make a great twist in the plot, but I doubt it will happen.  I'm hoping that's not how it is, that would make this story that much more confusing...

[Jehaine]

Heh, wasn't me then, i had the idea that the current Dragon would become the new DO in another thread, and Seal himself while his sanity still lasts ^^;

 

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As for the topic, i recall the Brown Ajah being quite excited about the Academy he was setting up, given the amount of books he was gathering there. And since the Brown Ajah would have at least basic knowledge about such a place, it's fairly safe to assume the Black Ajah did as well, which means Mesaana knew etc.

 

But my main gripe wasn't that Fel was killed -- he was dangerously close to the truth, i agree on that -- but rather the way he was killed. A dagger in the ribs would have killed him as fast as anyone else and everyone would write it off as a DF assassination. Sending in the Gholam kicked subtlety in the face though, and pretty much gave away to anyone and their cousins here that Fel ended up in the DO's List of Major Threats (just below Rand, Mat etc.).

 

I believe he's dead though, trying to go all philosophical and calmly discuss theories with him kind of goes in against the Forsakens' MO. They lack the will to what they'd see as babysitting a Third Ager.

[benr]

I believe he is dead, too...BUT - he could also have been "taken" by someone.  I always thought, though, that his "don't bring Min back" thing because she was too pretty may have actually been because he feared to be "viewed" by her.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I don't know about that, I mean, it's possible, but it wouldn't really matter if she viewed him.  She wouldn't tell him anything unless he asked, and she could view him any of the times he came to see Rand for all he knows.  Was he afraid he would see something that would upset her rather than him do you mean?  Maybe I'm just rambling, it's late and I've been testing in school for weeks now... be patient with my tired mind ^^

[benr]

It is most likely that he was what he seemed, an absent minded professor that was taken with Min's beauty, charm, etc., and found her distracting (of course, he could find an unlit pipe distracting).  But IF he were dark, and knew of her viewings (he did know alot of stuff), then it was a good way to get her away.  Maybe Rand did him in out of jealousy.

[Guest Dreadlord]

If Herid Fel was a darkfriend why would they send a gholam to kill him? If he was a Darkfriend he could have been leading Rand down the wrong path. Telling Rand that the prison needs to be made again from scratch for the cycle of the Wheel to be ready for the next turn could very well have led Rand to freeing the Dark One, it would have been a briliant way to manipulate Rand, yet they had Fel popped off. I very VERY much doubt Fel himself was a Darkfriend

[aevogt]

Back a couple replys. 

 

I'm not saying the Dragon is the Creator, I'm saying that the creator never had anything to do with it. 

 

During the first turning of the wheel, a supremely evil being, the DO, was imprisoned by the Dragon.  When that age came again, it had been so long that when they busted him out again, what had happened was so long past that the catechism assumed the creator, rather than the Dragon.

 

Otherwise, how could they drill through a "prison" made by the supreme power.  I, just like Fel, don't think they could.  They were drilling through the prison created by that first Dragon and then through the patch made by the Dragon that came in the Age after him. 

 

In other words, the Third Age Dragon makes a prison thatholds for 6 ages.  the second age ore a hole into it and it is repaired by the second age Dragon  and replaced by the third age dragon once again.

 

It's all idle speculation but if I'm right, there will be a Dragon / DO showdown coming in the next book.

[Lille]

Back a couple replys. 

 

I'm not saying the Dragon is the Creator, I'm saying that the creator never had anything to do with it. 

 

During the first turning of the wheel, a supremely evil being, the DO, was imprisoned by the Dragon.  When that age came again, it had been so long that when they busted him out again, what had happened was so long past that the catechism assumed the creator, rather than the Dragon.

 

Otherwise, how could they drill through a "prison" made by the supreme power.  I, just like Fel, don't think they could.  They were drilling through the prison created by that first Dragon and then through the patch made by the Dragon that came in the Age after him. 

 

In other words, the Third Age Dragon makes a prison thatholds for 6 ages.  the second age ore a hole into it and it is repaired by the second age Dragon  and replaced by the third age dragon once again.

 

It's all idle speculation but if I'm right, there will be a Dragon / DO showdown coming in the next book.

 

This is actually a nice theory, but if a man can't drill through the prison made by the supreme power of the Creator, how can a man make a prison to hold the supreme power of the Dark One?

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're assuming that the DO is or has a supreme power.

 

If I understand aevogt correctly, he's postulating that the DO is just an extremely powerful bad guy.

 

We all assume ( probably because all of the characters assume ) that the Age of Legends represents the pinnacle of human civilization.  It's actually more likely that the AoL is far less than the ultimate that humanity attains during the endless turnings of the Wheel of Time.

 

Where did Portal Stones come from?  Who made them?  The Horn of Valere?  It certainly wasn't anybody during the AoL who created those things.

 

So, if there is some form of human development above and beyond what we know of the AoL, then there could equally be a human DO as well as a human Dragon.

 

The only time we hear the DO speak, he says two interesting things that bear on this.  First, "YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE.  EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME."  And, second, "DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY.  THE ONE CALLED DRAGON."

 

A good case can be made that those are not the statements of any "supreme" being.  A good case can be made, that to a supreme being, time is but a tool like any other to be used as needed.

 

EDIT:  Unfortunately Jordan shot down the idea of a purely human DO.  From the Week 15 TOR QOTW: " Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work."

 

But, as we've seen with Shadar Logoth, very powerful evil CAN be created entirely from the minds and actions of humans, so aevogt's theory may still hold some water.

[Lille]

The wind died. The screams died. The earth was still. Dust and smoke swirled back down the pass to surround him.

“The Light blind you, Ba’alzamon! This has to end!”

IT IS NOT HERE.

It was not Rand’s thought, making his skull vibrate.

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

“Where?” He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. “Where?”

The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.

NOT HERE.

 

Taken from The Eye of The World, chapter 51. That doesnt sound like the Dark One to me, and if it isnt the Dark One, the Creator is a good guess. And he clearly states that "only the chosen one CAN do what must be done". So apparently he has limited power. Like the Dark One.

 

A good case can be made that those are not the statements of any "supreme" being.

[Ilyena]

Honestly, my guess is that when the Creator created the wheel of time, They spun Themself out of it. It seems plausible that the Creator would be limited, as it seems the DO is limited, by the flow of time. How ever, the DO is bound to the wheel and thus cannot take back Balefire, but can still interact with the world. The Creator cannot.

Tho explain the Eye of the World, Rand was in some wierd, freaky, crazy place, possibly as close to breaking the fabric of time as possible (like Telanrihod (sp)is not our world). That would explain how the Creator could touch it enough to create the stairs and speak to Rand, and why the Creator would be worried about Rand fighting Ishy there.

As for Harid Fel, the Ishy-reincarnate probably found out from a DF what Fel was researching, panicked, and sent the gholam to kill him. Not a forsaken themselves as channeling would most likely alert Rand or one of the Aes Sedai, and not a knife guy because he wanted the job done. A gholam makes perfect sense  when you think about it.

And Harid Fel knowing about Min? Doubtful as almost no one knows about Min's talents, and of those who know, we know they work for the light. And who knows, maybe Min will be the one to figure out whatever it was Fel was researching and save the day! :o

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lille -

 

I agree.  That is most likely the Creator speaking.

 

Another reading of the statements might be: I WILL TAKE NO PART. ( And since I refuse to play janitor for humanity, of those on this planet, ) ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

I think Jordan just wanted to clearly spell-out, at the beginning, that since this was a mess of humanity's making, humanity would have to clean it up.  There would be no Creator-comes-riding-over-the-hill-on-a-huge-white-charger-to-save-the-day in this series.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That huge blaring headline has finally gotten to me.

 

Elayne will hold the key to wining as soon as she takes it away from Birgitte, who holds the keys to both wining and dining.

[RAND AL THOR]

Since it is possible to change the title of a topic even after posting it, I would very strongly advise the caps to be removed. This topic title effectively dwarfs all other topics near it- which is what it undoubtedly meant to do.

[Dhaos]

Honestly, the thread has gotten far enough off topic that locking it, deleting it, or otherwise putting the bushwhack on it makes a good deal of sense.