Ogier Gardeners

[Captain General Miraj]

Any thoughts as to why Ogier choose to join the Deathwatch Guard and be fanatically loyal to the Crystal Throne?

[RAND AL THOR]

Life in Seandar is completely different from Randland because of the entirely different environments. A classic example would be the treatment of channelers in both continents. The Ogier may have been initially imprisoned or tricked into becoming deathwatch guards(and ogier doesn;t break his word, right?) and then they may have had to follow the custom.

 

Just a theory.

But the Ogier from Seandar don;t seem to have the longing?? ???

[Luckers]

The Ogier in Seanchan (Seandar is a city, and not a stedding, so it's unlikely any Ogier originate there) never lost the stedding because stedding are more common in Seanchan--as such they never developed the longing.

 

As for the fact that they serve as Gardeners--it's stated that that is a matter between the Empress and the Ogier only, which to me suggests that it came about as some form of stale-mate, or group decision. Though to what effect or from what purpose we don't know. Still, it seems strangely equal--too equal for the Ogier to be dupes or victims given Seanchan attitudes towards the Empress. Whatever is going on there is as much their doing as it is that of the Crystal Throne.

[The Lost One]

As for the fact that they serve as Gardeners--it's stated that that is a matter between the Empress and the Ogier only, which to me suggests that it came about as some form of stale-mate, or group decision. Though to what effect or from what purpose we don't know. Still, it seems strangely equal--too equal for the Ogier to be dupes or victims given Seanchan attitudes towards the Empress. Whatever is going on there is as much their doing as it is that of the Crystal Throne.

 

I remember reading that in the book and thinking they must have come to some sort of agreement.  Maybe the Empress agreed to leave them alone (the ones that stay in the stedding) in exchange for having some of them join the Death Watch guards.  Maybe as part of a treaty agreement or something like that. 

[dragonlover]

ive alway thought that the Seanchan ogiers may have had some sort of knowledge (prob from some old book) that they were needed to join with empress and go to randland to help breed out the longing from the randland ogier

[Sila Darklover]

Interesting idea.  You think the Longing is genetic, then? 

 

Though it would be kewl if that happened, we haven't read of much apparent interest in it.  We shall see.

[CUBAREY]

You must remember two facts. Ogiers are of the light. They fight the Dark one and his minions. Now at the time that Luther Hawkwing landed in Seanchen the continent was overrun by the Armies of the night. Ir thus seems reasonable that the Ogier allied themselves with Hawkwing's descendents to fight the armies of the night. Now unlike the Randland Ogier Seanchen Ogiers never retreated from the affairs of men. They also have a special place in Seanchen society. They are DeathWatch troops but not slaves like their human counterparts.

 

As to them helping to erase the longing, it will be a real culture shoch to the peaceful Randland Ogiers when they meet up with the "longhandled" Seanchen Ogier.

[BrainFireBob]

A form of Ogier fascism- order and peace at all costs, to prevent the despoiling of the land by constant wars.

 

It's not hard to see, given Randland Ogier philosophy.

[Luckers]

You must remember two facts. Ogiers are of the light. They fight the Dark one and his minions. Now at the time that Luther Hawkwing landed in Seanchen the continent was overrun by the Armies of the night. Ir thus seems reasonable that the Ogier allied themselves with Hawkwing's descendents to fight the armies of the night. Now unlike the Randland Ogier Seanchen Ogiers never retreated from the affairs of men. They also have a special place in Seanchen society. They are DeathWatch troops but not slaves like their human counterparts

 

Keep in mind that the Armies of the Night were not actually Shadowspawn, or even under the control of Darkfriends. The Armies of the Night were the name given to to the armies that ruled Seanchan by Luthair Paendrags forces because of the 'monsters' that fought with them, the Grolm, raken, to'raken, Colm, s'redit and so forth. These monsters were actually brought into Seanchan from portal stone worlds during the first thousand years to help fight the Shadow, and successfully--it was only after the Shadowspawn were wiped out that the Seanchan devolved to the state of constant internal warfare that Luthair found them in.

 

That beind said it seems to me to be entirely possible that the Ogier joined with Luthair seeing him as the best chance for restoring peace. Indeed it seems precisely the form of thing that the Ogier would do, and would explain quite neatly the situation with the Gardeners.

 

I really, really like this idea. It solves so many things, and answers questions that have been bugging me for ages.

 

[metria31183]

 

Keep in mind that the Armies of the Night were not actually Shadowspawn, or even under the control of Darkfriends. The Armies of the Night were the name given to to the armies that ruled Seanchan by Luthair Paendrags forces because of the 'monsters' that fought with them, the Grolm, raken, to'raken, Colm, s'redit and so forth. These monsters were actually brought into Seanchan from portal stone worlds during the first thousand years to help fight the Shadow, and successfully--it was only after the Shadowspawn were wiped out that the Seanchan devolved to the state of constant internal warfare that Luthair found them in.

 

 

Where does it say that these creatures were from the Portal Stone worlds?

[BrainFireBob]

From the Guide, also know colloquially as the BWB (big white book).

[metria31183]

I have a copy of the Guide and I don't remember seeing that in there.

[Alexius]

It also makes sense that they'd come from a Portal Stone world, given that that's where Rand first meets a Grolm.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Try the first two paragraphs on page 163 of the BWB.

...It was thus , between the Aes Sedai and the creatures believed to be some new kind of Shadowspawn, that the defenders of this new continent came to be known as the Armies of the Night.

 

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn.  While the creatures' effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated...

[metria31183]

Thank you for the quote.  It's been a while since I read the Guide cover to cover.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Interesting sidenote:  Although the BWB here speaks of "parallel worlds,"  Jordan was insistent that the Portal Stones took one to "mirror worlds," and that parallel worlds and mirror worlds were very different things.

[Aemon raHal]

The portal stones can also transport you to another portal stone in the same world...

 

So it can go to parallel and mirror worlds

[Bob T Dwarf]

Going from one Portal Stone to another Portal Stone on the same planet isn't going to a parallel world, it's still the same world.

[cloglord]

This thread did spark a question for me.  If it is true that at some point in the future that the Ogier will open the book of translation, and leave Randland long enough for their memory to be erased, does this mean that at some point all of the ogier will have to be reunited back to one continent? 

 

If the book is opened after TG, does that mean that either all of the Seanchan ogier will have to make the trip across the ocean, does it mean that they will have all died?

 

It makes me wonder what an ogier that has promised to defend the Imperial family with his life would do, when he finds out that the only (possibly) living member of the imperial family is on the other side of the ocean.  Should we anticipate the arrival of the entirety of the deathwatch guards in Randland at some point in AMoL?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good questions.

 

From everything we've learned from Loial, it doesn't seem that the Randland Ogier know anything at all about the Seanchan Ogier, so if they do decide to use the Book of Translation, they seem unlikely to wait for those folks to arrive.

 

Semirhage might have needed to kill all of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards still in Seanchan in order to kill all of the Imperial family still in Seanchan.  No way to tell, at this point.

[cloglord]

From everything we've learned from Loial, it doesn't seem that the Randland Ogier know anything at all about the Seanchan Ogier, so if they do decide to use the Book of Translation, they seem unlikely to wait for those folks to arrive.

 

Uhm, Loial went to Ebou Dar to negotiate the disaserous meeting between Rand and "fake" Tuon/Semhirage.  I don't see how he could have done that and missed the Gardeners, but even assuming that he did, there are certainly ogier in Seanchan held territories.  It is not like it is a closely guarded secret that Ogier survived in Seanchan.

 

Semirhage might have needed to kill all of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards still in Seanchan in order to kill all of the Imperial family still in Seanchan.  No way to tell, at this point.

 

I suppose she could have had to for some reason, but it seems unlikely that Semhirage would be able to kill the entirety of the ogier race on that side of the ocean, especially considering that the majority of them were likely protected by steddings. 

 

which sparks another random thought.  What if the steddings are the mechanism by which the Ogier would leave randland?  We know that steddings don't operate under the normal rules, IE they are not accessable by TAR nor can the op be channeled inside them.  What if steddings are actually little bubbles of another reality, an "ogier reality," and when the book is opened all of the steddings go to another dimension along with anything in them.    That would explain why there are no ogier in later ages, because any ogier that was left behind, would either succumb to the longing, or in the case of Seanchan Ogier become subject to the longing after a long enough period without a stedding to go to.  This theory even explains the origins of the longing in the first place.  I like it. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Loial attended the first preliminary meeting.  He was at the manor with Rand, getting married and fighting Trollocs while Bashere was arranging the final details of Rand's meeting with Anath.  My guess is that if he'd seen or met any Ogier Deathwatch Guards he would have at least mentioned it to Rand.

 

I neither said nor implied that Semi killed all of the Ogier in Seanchan.  Just all of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards, which is who you were wondering about maybe coming to Randland to find Tuon.  Not all of any group anywhere practices a single profession.  There should still be plenty of other Ogier in Seanchan.

 

Now, your idea about the Stedding is very interesting.  I hadn't considered that the Stedding might be pieces of some alternate plane.  It makes sense that they are though.  Explains how they behave/interact with this reality and how they got "lost" during the Breaking. 

 

Dunno if you're right or not, but it's an interesting idea and I like it.

[metria31183]

From everything we've learned from Loial, it doesn't seem that the Randland Ogier know anything at all about the Seanchan Ogier, so if they do decide to use the Book of Translation, they seem unlikely to wait for those folks to arrive.

 

What is the Book of Translation?  I'm in the middle of a re-read.  I just started TPoD and it's been several years since I have read WoT.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's only ever been mentioned once.  Just the name only. 

 

Probably an artifact of some sort.  What it does or how it works or if we'll ever see it used are things nobody knows.

[Luckers]

I might suggest--with absolutely no proof--that it is some sort of recording of the Numbers of Chaos. Verin states that the portal stones were laid by those that knew the Numbers of Chaos, it seems reasonable that this involves some sort of understanding of the methods of transdimensional travel--a stated knowledge, that could possibly be recorded in a book. Indeed, the Book of Translations--a guide to how to use the Numbers of Chaos. Translating them, so they can be used even without understanding the math.

 

Interesting sidenote:  Although the BWB here speaks of "parallel worlds,"  Jordan was insistent that the Portal Stones took one to "mirror worlds," and that parallel worlds and mirror worlds were very different things.

 

If I may ask, could you quote that. I've not seen it before, and i'd be interested in the specific wording.