Ogier Gardeners

[Bob T Dwarf]

I posted that in another thread awhile back.  Sorry don't remember which thread or when.  It may have even come from the DragonCon tapes link that Emma posted here a couple of months ago.

 

I've recently been digging through so much WOT stuff it's become impossible to keep track of what came from where unless I thought it was significant enough stuff to make a note of at the time.  Obviously I didn't think the mirror worlds/parallel worlds quote was important enough, because it isn't in my notes.

 

It's not too difficult to work out why he would have made a distinction, though.

 

On a mirror world, the same rules of physics would be in place as we see from the one mirror world that we've visited.  On a parallel world/universe, different rules of physics would be possible, as we see in Finnland.  Different methods needed to get to each, also.

[cloglord]

I neither said nor implied that Semi killed all of the Ogier in Seanchan.  Just all of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards, which is who you were wondering about maybe coming to Randland to find Tuon.  Not all of any group anywhere practices a single profession.  There should still be plenty of other Ogier in Seanchan.

 

Which was in respose to my original question as to the mechanism by which all of the ogier race would leave randland.  Since there are no ogier in later ages, it implies that all of the ogier left or died out in some manner.  While I don't doubt that Semhirage could have killed all of the deathwatch gardeners, I'm not sure why she would go to the trouble, or how killing just the deathwatch guards would solve the question I posed, which is what is going to happen to the seanchan ogier?

 

I think it is possible that a scholar of the numbers of chaos could use the portal stones without the need for a use of the OP, as the portal stones predate the AoL.  If the book of translation is indeed a translation of the numbers of chaos, it could provide the mechanism for the ogier to travel interdimensionally.  Of course this line of thought would require one of use to re-read what it is that Eldrith's Grandmother said about portal stones in TGH.  It seems to me that she either knew alot about them, or did not know much at all about them.  Depending on which is the case, it could go a long way towards supporting or hampering this theory. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The vast majority of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards would have been guarding the Empress herself, and her remaining children as well.  Plus possibly any favored High Lords or Ladies.

 

Thus, in order to kill those personages, Semi probably would have had to kill at least those Deathwatch Guards on duty first.  Both human and Ogier.

 

So, best guess is that some Ogier Deathwatch Guards remain, but they're probably as scattered and confused by all the upheaval Semi left behind as everybody else.  Unlikely that they'd get themselves organized and make a trip clear across the Aryth Ocean before TG comes to pass.  But, maybe.  This is fantasy; nearly anything can happen.

 

Also, best guess - the Ogier Gardeners in Randland will become known to the Randland Ogier, and any plans to use the Book of Translation will be put on hold until all Ogier can be translated.

 

Any case, Loial will be able to honor his promise to Rand and fight at his side.  My bet is he persuades the Great Stump to allow any others who wish to fight to do so.

[cloglord]

The vast majority of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards would have been guarding the Empress herself, and her remaining children as well.  Plus possibly any favored High Lords or Ladies.

 

This is an entirely unfounded assumption.  Even if we assume that all of the remaining ogier gardeners were assigned to the direct protection of the imperial family only, you would still have to take into account that at least half of those would likely be off duty at any given time, that isunless you are suggesting that they have some sort of overlapping 12+hour guard schedule.  If at least half of the ogier are not directly protecting the imperial family at any given time, I don't see how the "vast majority," of the ogier deathwatch would be involved in the imperial bloodbath.  Even were they there, it is not likely that the "vast majority," of them would be in the room with the imperial family, unless we are talking about a stadium sized imperial throne room packed with ogier.  If the throne room was not, as I suspect, packed with the vast majority of the ogier deathwatch, then it would have been fairly easy for a forsaken level channeler to block the doors, kill any protective force within the room from surprise, and then take her time flaying the entire imperial family.  Of course this is entirely a non issue, as it has no bearing on the question of how the rest of the seanchan ogier, (surviving deathwatch ogier and non-deathwatch ogier,) will dissapear from subsequent ages.

 

So, best guess is that some Ogier Deathwatch Guards remain, but they're probably as scattered and confused by all the upheaval Semi left behind as everybody else.  Unlikely that they'd get themselves organized and make a trip clear across the Aryth Ocean before TG comes to pass.  But, maybe.  This is fantasy; nearly anything can happen.

 

Why would they be scattered?  Earlier you intimated that the "vast majority," would be centrally located in the protection of the imperial family.  Now they are scattered?  Why is it unlikely that they would be unorganized?  They are the most disciplined military force on the continent, and they are singlemindedly pointed at one goal, the protection of the imperial family.  Since Tuon is the only surviving member of the imperial family, I would say that you would have a highly disciplined, cenrally located, and goal driven group, with the sole goal of reaching and protecting the sole surviving Imperial, Tuon.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

We have no real information about how the Imperial Family is organized or where each of them is located.  Assuming they're all in one place is as foolish as assuming that no two of them are in the same place.  All we know is that Semirhage claims to have killed them all and left the remaining High Lords and Ladies fighting over the succession.  And, the vast majority of them being assigned to Imperial Security, in no way implies that all of that majority was on duty at any given time.

 

And, please don't pick an choose which quotes of mine you focus on and which you ignore entirely.  I also quite clearly said:

Thus, in order to kill those personages, Semi probably would have had to kill at least those Deathwatch Guards on duty first.  Both human and Ogier.

 

Let me repeat that so that you really get it: Wherever each of them was when Semi instituted her bloodbath, she logically would have had to contend with at least those Deathwatch Guards on duty at the time.

 

How many she ultimately had to deal with would depend on whether any contingent of them was able to summon reinforcements before they were taken out themselves.

Why would they be scattered?  Earlier you intimated that the "vast majority," would be centrally located in the protection of the imperial family.  Now they are scattered?  Why is it unlikely that they would be unorganized?  They are the most disciplined military force on the continent, and they are singlemindedly pointed at one goal, the protection of the imperial family.  Since Tuon is the only surviving member of the imperial family, I would say that you would have a highly disciplined, cenrally located, and goal driven group, with the sole goal of reaching and protecting the sole surviving Imperial, Tuon.

 

No, you inferred that I meant they would be centralized.  My own view is that the Imperial Family would be smart enough to protect the succession from too great a concentration of its members in any one locale.  I also pointed out that the Ogier Gardeners are sometimes "loaned" to favored High Lords and High Ladies.  Those would be located wherever those High Lords and High Ladies were at the time.  Suroth was one of those so favored until her recent troubles.  We have no idea how many other such favored individuals there were.

 

Being dispersed at any number of unknown and unknowable locations throughout Seanchan, necessarily means that they're scattered.  A land in the beginnings of a multi-way civil war leaves them with vast difficulties in reorganizing themselves into a single coherent force.  We have no clue whatsoever how much of the Deathwatch, let alone Ogier Gardener command structure Semi took out, as well.  So, the first thing they'd need to do is for those scattered units to get into communication with each other.  Then they'd need to work out who was the surviving senior commander.  Only once all of that has been accomplished can plans be made and orders issued.  Who knows how long that could take?

 

Then, like any military unit there are those Ogier Gardeners who would have been on liberty and resting within a Stedding at the time.  Lotsa guys.  Lotsa places.  Land in turmoil.  BIG PROBLEM.

 

Will they decide to even check whether Tuon is still alive or not?  Who knows.  Semi is certainly capable of putting out the word that Tuon was already dead before, during, or after the bloodbath.  She certainly was able to dispatch a ship to bring word to Randland of what had happened.  Who knows what else she did while she was there.

 

Will they check first, or just abandon Seanchan and their stedding entirely in the hope that they're needed more in Randland than back at home?  Again, who knows.  Useless to speculate.  I've already stated how I think it will play out with regard to the Book of Translation and TG.

 

Disagree if you like, but don't make out that mine are unfounded assumptions.  At least my assumptions are based in a realistic appraisal of the situation and the difficulties involved in maintaining a coherent force in the face of those difficulties.  All we have when it comes to Seanchan  and the bloodbath is assumptions.  Semi made a very short and bald statement, and that's all we'll ever have to go on.

 

 

 

[cloglord]

The vast majority of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards would have been guarding the Empress herself, and her remaining children as well.  Plus possibly any favored High Lords or Ladies.

There's your unfounded quote.  You make a flat statement as to the disposition of a small army based on nothing more than your say so.  I did not pick and choose which quote to focus on.  In one part you say that the "vast majority of the ogier deathwatch guards would be guarding the empress herself...her remaining children...[and]favored high lords or ladies."  And then later you say that "Semi probably would have had to kill at least those Deathwatch Guards on duty first.  Both human and Ogier."  If you put the two together you seem to suggest that semhirage would have to kill those who were guarding the imperial family, a force that you had described as the "vast majority."  If you are inconsistent with your choice of words it does not make me a cherry picker of quotes. 

 

Let me repeat that so that you really get it: Wherever each of them was when Semi instituted her bloodbath, she logically would have had to contend with at least those Deathwatch Guards on duty at the time.

 

I understand without your need for redundancy, I disagree, and there is a difference between lack of understanding and disagreement.  If the deathwatch ogier are as disperse a group as you now seem to be contending, then it would be simple for Semhi to wrap up a handful of ogier guards with the OP while she slaughters the lone imperial that they were gaurding.  There is no necessity that Semhi kill even thouse who were directly guarding any given imperial, she could have simply performed her act of slaughter, and left via a gateway leaving ashamed and disheartened deathwatch guards in her wake.  There is no "logical" necessity that she would have to kill the guards.

 

 

No, you inferred that I meant they would be centralized.  My own view is that the Imperial Family would be smart enough to protect the succession from too great a concentration of its members in any one locale.  I also pointed out that the Ogier Gardeners are sometimes "loaned" to favored High Lords and High Ladies.  Those would be located wherever those High Lords and High Ladies were at the time.  Suroth was one of those so favored until her recent troubles.  We have no idea how many other such favored individuals there were.

 

I inferred your meaning based on your statements.  you said that the deathwatch would be centered on the empress, the royal family and a handful of high lords and ladies.  Considering that there was one empress, 4 direct descendants, and a undetermined number of high lords and ladies, lets say 10, that would mean that there would be 15 or so concentrations of deathwatch guards within an area the size of north and south america.  I'd say that's pretty centralized, especially when you take into consideration that we know that the imperial court and thus the imperial family were all in seandar at the time of the massacre.  Even if you made the argument that all of the forces that you assign to specific persons were spread evenly throughout the seanchan continent, you would still have fewer concentrations of military force than many modern militaries have for a much smaller geographical area.  I could name more US military bases in the midwest from memory than the number of deathwatch concentrations you proposed. Now of course in your last post, you seem to be claiming a higher number of locations for death watchguards to be stationed, but I could only infer from what you had said, not on how you planned on changing your position in your next post. 

Then they'd need to work out who was the surviving senior commander.  Only once all of that has been accomplished can plans be made and orders issued.  Who knows how long that could take?

 

Why?  Did I forget to mention how highly trained the deathwatch guards are?  Nope, I didn't, and like any well trained military organization they already are aware of the chain of command.  Since you seemed to have changed your mind, and are now claiming that Semhi would have only had to take out the deathwatch guards directly guarding the imperial's themselves, why would we expect to see a massive disruption of the deathwatch chain of command based on the deaths of maybe 500 deathwatch corporals and 1st leiutenants?  Unless you are suggesting that these high lords and ladies were all personally guarded by banner generals?

 

Will they decide to even check whether Tuon is still alive or not?  Who knows.  Semi is certainly capable of putting out the word that Tuon was already dead before, during, or after the bloodbath.  She certainly was able to dispatch a ship to bring word to Randland of what had happened.  Who knows what else she did while she was there.

 

You're probably right, the entirety of the deathwatch guards would probably give up their sole motivation in life based on a rumor.  They'd probably just give up and go home, wherever that is considering that they apparently all lived within 15 minutes of some prominent local politician. ::)

 

Am I the only one who sees the irony of you complaining about me calling you out on your unfounded assumptions in the same breath as the one where you admit that all we have to found these assumptions on is

a very short and bald statement, and that's all we'll ever have to go on.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's not at all unreasonable to figure that the Commanding General would be in attendance upon the Empress herself.  Nor unreasonable to figure that some of the command structure would have led any reinforcements.  Nor that other high ranking officers would be attending the other Imperials.  Before any command structure can swing into action, it first needs to determine who the surviving senior commander is.  Until that is determined all intermediate actions are only temporary.

 

You've got all the surviving Seanchan Ogier, not just the Deathwatch Guards, rushing off to Randland on nothing but a hope and a guess on their part.  I'm merely questioning whether they might not check to see if there is really any point in them coming.  And whether Tuon, if she still lives, wants them there.  Remember, Deathwatch Guarding isn't all the Ogier there do.  They'd still have their own complete society within each Stedding.  Would all of those others even consider abandoning their homes just to tag along with the Ogier Gardeners?

 

I haven't heard about the Seanchan finding any Randland Stedding, have you?  Do any of the Seanchan Ogier even know that there are Stedding still in Randland? 

 

Those Ogier have been apart since the Breaking.  They'd have their records and stories, but no living memories to guide them in making such choices.  Those Ogier, while different in many ways, are not a totally separate race from the Randland Ogier.  Ogier don't do things in a hasty fashion.  They think it through.  They discuss.  They debate.  They hold Stumps.  In order to make such a radical change in how they would be living, they'd need to hold their own Great Stump, and probably speechify and debate for at least a year before reaching a consensus.

 

Will TG wait on what they decide?  Will the Randland Ogier wait on their decision before reaching their own?

 

It's a mess.  Nothing is going to be neatly and tidily decided.  Jordan already told us that.  Important major storylines will have a resolution.  A few will reach a climactic final ending.   All others will be left open so as to provide an ongoing and living world.

 

In the end, the series we're reading may wind up being attributed to Loial son of Arent son of Halan.  The only reminder of the Ogier.  Left behind when they all  Translated at some future date in the Fourth Age when mankind has once again screwed everything up beyond all recognition, and the whole race of Ogier have finally had their fill of us and get outa Dodge.  For an Age or three at least.  Until we find them again and demonstrate that we've grown up.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You've also got Semirhage doing everything perfectly.  She wraps up all the Guards wherever they may be placed, however many separate flows that would require,  deals with all the sul'dam and damane that may be present, while still being able to weave spells to flay her targets alive, however many might be present in one place and however many again separate flows that might require.  The DO doesn't need anybody else.  She's the prototypical Wonder Woman.  She probably also did the laundry, cooked a seven course gourmet meal and performed both open heart and brain surgery while she was warmed up and in top form and had the odd microsecond to spare as a break from all the rapturous death and destruction.  And she does love her death and destruction.  The more and the more gratuitous and monstrously painful and horrifying the better. So, how many of any of those within her sight do you figure she'd leave alive?  And, she does it all without mussing a hair or breaking a nail.

 

She can't even capture Rand on ground that she chose, under conditions that she specified, with five sets of sul'dam and damane to back her when he has only an amateur honor guard present and everything is stacked in her favor.

 

So, who's the real Semirhage?  The perfect evil villainess?  The absolute mistress of solo, single-handed death and destruction that you paint?  Or the one we actually get to experience?

[cloglord]

Uhm, Semhirage was a victim of not enough information.  She had no way of knowing that any of Rand's contingent knew how to invert weaves or hide their abilities, she also did not know about Nyn and Cad's battle terangreal. Simply she was not on familiar turf, was not familiar with her adversaries, and had no means of reacting in the seconds between her suprise unveiling and the ensuing battle.  She thought she had stacked the odds far enough in her favor, she was wrong.  Being wrong once does not make her incompetent.

 

Presumably when Semhirage planned out the slaughter of the imperial family she was better prepared, and had more ocmplete information.  she had been a member of that group for 2 years, knew the patterns of the court, and had Radhanan in the palm of her hand.  Simply, Semhirage could have compelled Radhanan to summon the entire court and dismiss all the guards.  With the absolute obedience given to the empress, and the absolute obedience of Radhanan that Semhi could have commanded, she could have very easily slaughtered every member of the high blood without even having a single guard in the room.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Certainly.

 

And, that just highlights the fact that we simply don't know enough about what was done or how it was accomplished to make any meaningful judgements about how the Ogier Gardeners will react or what they will ultimately do.

 

We may wish they'd do this or wish they'd do that, but that's all we'd be doing is wishing.

[cloglord]

so you agree that when you made these statements they were unfounded, right?

 

The vast majority of the Ogier Deathwatch Guards would have been guarding the Empress herself, and her remaining children as well.  Plus possibly any favored High Lords or Ladies.

 

Thus, in order to kill those personages, Semi probably would have had to kill at least those Deathwatch Guards on duty first.  Both human and Ogier.

 

Because,...

 

we simply don't know enough about what was done or how it was accomplished to make any meaningful judgements about how the Ogier Gardeners will react or what they will ultimately do.

 

Which by the way would have been a fine answer to my original question, of what is going to happen to the seanchan ogier?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not at all.

 

The vast majority of the Deathwatch Guards still in Seanchan being engaged in Imperial Security is only common sense.  That's why the Deathwatch Guards exist, after all. 

 

What I did was postulate an alternative Ogier Gardener response to the bloodbath to the one you posed.  Mine was more grounded in in the realities of civil war chaos, and known Ogier behavior than yours.

 

Obviously, since the Book of Translation exists, and since Jordan has said that our own Age occurs somewhere in the Wheel's Weaving, and since I'd never seen or heard of an Ogier until I "met" Loial, the Book gets used and the Ogier leave at some point.

 

Known Ogier behavior makes it highly unlikely, if not impossible, for that time of Translation to be within the scope of this series.

[cloglord]

What I did was postulate an alternative Ogier Gardener response to the bloodbath to the one you posed.  Mine was more grounded in in the realities of civil war chaos, and known Ogier behavior than yours.

 

I think that if you go back and re-read this thread you'll find that I did not pose a position on Ogier response so much as I asked a question and then proposed a few possible responses.  I never claimed that the question of translation would be covered in the scope of the books.  I was asking the question of how it would be adressed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If that's the question, then common sense says that, first the two groups of Ogier need to become aware of each other.  Then they need to communicate.  Then they need to exchange representatives.  Then, they need to agree on a location for another Great Stump.  Then, once everybody has the chance to be represented and heard, that Great Stump needs to debate and consensus needs to be reached.

 

Again, I don't see any of that happening until after the conclusion of TG and any mop-up, clean-up, etc. is done.